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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jan 2010 : 07:22:34
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I found this little article of Big Sigh in my inbox this morning. While I'm not familiar with US constitutional laws or those of the state of Wisconsin, I'm pretty sure its a case of knee-jerk mixed with a healthy dose of short-sightedness (even if the ruling was well thought out and reasoned). Are we moving back to the era of D&D is the devil? How many other scribes have been following this, and what are your thoughts on the matter?
Personally I think any criminal foregoes (or should forego) all but the very basic human rights when he has so little regard for other's rights by committing the crime in the first place. As rehabilitation takes place, so some of his rights can be restored. That said, if this 'lifer' had been rehabilitated to a point where playing a game of D&D could become one of his privileges, I don’t see the harm in him doing so. In fact, I don’t think being part of a regular gaming group could lead to gang behaviour at all, or we’d see that with gamers outside prison too. Anyway, the decision baffles me on many levels, and I would like to hear more thoughts on this matter.
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Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2010 : 07:33:22
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This does not appear to be a good ruling, while the Constitution does provide rights, they can be removed for committing a crime.
Reading the article however the Judge supported confiscating books, book banning is a violation of a right not normally denied. The seizing of personal notes however could be justified as they could be notes to escape or cause other discord. This though clearly is not religious freedom issue, a right to practice/play a hobby clearly is a right that after committing a crime can be restricted.
I would need transcribe of the case to see how much I agree with the ruling and how much I disagree. The summery of total ruling I know I disagree with. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2010 : 08:34:46
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Sounds like the judge(s) are still infected with the anti-D&D contagion of the late '70s/early '80s, complete with the belief that D&D teaches players to believe their fantasies and to lose grip on reality. (See the wiki article's section on <this aspect of D&D's history>.)
I still say that there is a need for a good major motion picture or professional documentary about the real story of <James Dallas Egbert> and how D&D was scapegoated for it, as well as the long-running cultural aftermath. But of course, Hollywood only ever wanted to believe <the worst>.
And apparently, so do judges.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2010 : 14:57:07
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| I allright with it as long as this judge bans all types of entertainment like TV, Movies, cards, board games and such and is not singling out a particualar pass-time. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2010 : 16:30:16
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| I don't know if it's Constitutionally justifiable or not, but I believe it's common practice for jail and prison officials to regulate what sort of books and magazines prisoners may possess. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2010 : 16:57:59
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Here's the original article.
quote:
Dungeons & Dragons "promotes fantasy role playing, competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling," according to the ruling. The prison later developed a more comprehensive policy against all types of fantasy games, the court said.
I'm of mixed feelings on this one. On the one hand, he's been a life-long D&D player, he's serving a life sentence and the reasons sound like they were written by <Patricia Pulling>.
On the otherhand, he did commit first-degree murder by planning out and killing his sister's boyfriend with a sledgehammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. I don't feel like being viewed as being on the same side as this guy. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 27 Jan 2010 16:59:09 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2010 : 19:20:20
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This could be used to help put fear in people from commiting a crime (example of someone thinking: "no way am I gonna do that illegal thing I'm thinking of doing cause it means I won't be able to play D&D").
anyways.... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2010 : 08:13:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
On the otherhand, he did commit first-degree murder by planning out and killing his sister's boyfriend with a sledgehammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER.
Yup. In some minds one man's sledge is another dwarf's maul/warmace. I'm pretty sure the judges (or prison officials) put that same two and two together. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 07:44:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
On the otherhand, he did commit first-degree murder by planning out and killing his sister's boyfriend with a sledgehammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER.
That's good reason for the life sentence. Keeping this guy off the streets theoretically keeps him from doing again what he has already been shown to have the propensity to do--murder.
But badmouthing and banning D&D doesn't really accomplish much of anything. He hasn't been shown to have the propensity to join gangs, nor have any other D&D gamers been shown thusly, and banning D&D hasn't been shown to decrease any other people's propensities to join gangs. It's a total non-sequitur.
Do prisons ban all TV and reading materials? Because if you're an intelligent enough of a criminal, you can get inspiration from anything.
And if you're insane enough, you can get inspiration in the patterns on the soles of your shoes, or in the tiles on the floor or in the ceiling. Should they ban shoes, floors, and ceilings, too?
What if you believe that your guards are psychically, telepathically telling you to kill someone in the clink? Should the judges then ban guards?
quote:
I don't feel like being viewed as being on the same side as this guy.
What I'm saying is that there should be a rational basis for criticizing and prohibiting D&D.
Further down in the same wiki article that Ashe linked to, it says that the prison ban on D&D originally resulted from an anonymous prisoner snitch's report that D&D game-playing prisoners were forming a "gang". That report could have resulted just as much from jealousy or pot-stirring as from truth. So how rational of a basis could it be?
I'm not saying that we should be on the convict's side.
I'm saying that we should be on D&D's side.
What this ban and subsequent ruling really do is to perpetuate a stereotype and stigma against D&D.
Don't let stupid judges badmouth D&D as a proxy for this D&D-loving convict. They should confine their commentary to the criminal's criminal behavior alone, and not lump everything (anything) else in with it--especially when it's based on stereotyped scapegoating. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 29 Jan 2010 08:01:31 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 14:22:50
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| Believe me, BEAST, that's exactly how I feel. The difficulty is that, being prison, they are allowed to ban certain things they deem 'inappropriate' (i.e. no showings of "Escape from Alcatraz"). I strongly disagree that D&D should be banned, especially on the reasons that they gave. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 20:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Believe me, BEAST, that's exactly how I feel. The difficulty is that, being prison, they are allowed to ban certain things they deem 'inappropriate' (i.e. no showings of "Escape from Alcatraz"). I strongly disagree that D&D should be banned, especially on the reasons that they gave.
Maybe the game involved busting out of a Waterdeep cell??? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 20:44:50
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| I just think all the characters had maxed out their ranks in Escape Artist and forgot to put some into Bluff... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 21:56:35
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Perhaps the judge who banned D&D in that prisoon thought the prisoners would form a thieves guild?
just saying.... |
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 03:49:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I just think all the characters had maxed out their ranks in Escape Artist and forgot to put some into Bluff...
An *escapist* *fantasy* game indeed. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 13:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I just think all the characters had maxed out their ranks in Escape Artist and forgot to put some into Bluff...
An *escapist* *fantasy* game indeed.
Cheers
While not quite a "fantasy" escape game, back in 1973....
Escape from Colditz
"One player takes the part of the German Guards, whilst the others play "Escape Officers" who are responsible for organizing escape attempts by their team of prisoners. Generally, the winner will be the Escape Officer who achieves the most successful escapes; but it might be the German Forces, if they are able to limit the number of escapes.
The game has been reedited in 2006 by Devir in Spain, with a totally new graphic design and a rewritten rulebook based in the original edition by Gibsons Games . This new edition has been supervised and approved by the original designer, Brian Degas."
I can highly recommend this game 
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/715/escape-from-colditz
Especially to those seeking to make a dramtic bid for freedom 
ANd you'll be whistling this tune in no time 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbsuAbTTsV8
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Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett
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Dungeons & Dragons Prison Ban Upheld?
