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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 02:57:19
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Hi again, fellow scribes!
Herewith, the promised second answer from Ed, this one to Hoondatha. As before, I’ll split it into chunks short enough not to choke the Keep, in this case just two of them.
IF THE RIVER LIS WAS LIKE HOONDATHA'S VERSION
Hoondatha posted, in part: “In my own campaign I decided to make the Lis a broad, deep, extremely swift river with sandy or more often pebbly flanks and no fords. So . . . if we replace the swampy Lis with the one I describe above, and its surrounding land with something a bit drier and more accommodating, how would you see the southern Moonsea dynamic changing? Would we see cities building (or fighting over) bridges over it? Would enterprising merchants try to found a city at its northern mouth? If so, who would support, who would oppose? I was hoping you could walk a little with me down this thought experiment.”
Ed replies:
With the greatest of pleasure, Hoondatha. This change (let’s assume the Flooded Forest still exists, fed by that other, more easterly river, which will “take up space” that would be necessary for, say, a realm to be founded by humans or orcs along the southern part of the eastern bank of the Lis, during the time of the Retreat) would make the Lis a vitally important water-travel route to bring the mineral riches of the Moonsea North down to the ever-hungrily-consuming cities around the Inner Sea, the lands “behind” them, and, via trade-caravans, the wider Realms beyond.
So certainly there would be attempts to control the Lis, fortifying its mouth or bridging it or even founding a kingdom to straddle it. And elven resistance to all of this, and inevitable repeated attempts to conquer whatever is built.
The Moonsea has vast woods, so it might be economical to just make endless barges (or log-boom rafts, with the raw logs sold in Sembia for lumber) to carry much of the trade-bars or raw ore south. Some merchants might prefer this, transshipping goods at Scardale or other harbors (Ylraphon [which would become and remain far more important than it is “today” in the Realms], Calaunt, and so on) from barges to ships for more southerly trade.
If not, getting ships north against the fast flow of the Lis is going to be a matter of towpaths on either bank, large teams of mules or rothé or oxen or the like, and inevitably northbound trade-roads paralleling the river on both sides—with military patrols using them, and probably forts/keeps built along the river at various points (as well as at both river-mouths).
Assuming the same general geopolitics of the Realms in the region as we know from Realmslore (and the absence of the Wet Lisen or overmuch meddling from such wild cards as Ironfang Keep or, say, the Srinshee), Mulmaster, Hillsfar, Calaunt, Zhentil Keep, and to a lesser extent the other Moonsea ports and Dragonreach ports (Ravens Bluff, Scardale, et al) would be the most persistent attempted conquerors or dominators of the Lis and its banks.
Inevitably, of course, the Princes of Shade, the Red Wizards, and other power groups—not to mention lands such as Sembia and Cormyr, and various independent merchant cabals within such lands, as well as city-states like Westgate—would work to support or subvert various of these players, as would the elves (and we should not forget the forces of the Underdark, or a working of magic by a desperate surface power to collapse the uppermost caverns beneath the Lis and cause it to plunge into the Underdark’s depths, interrupting its surface flow and inevitably wreaking havoc as the Moonsea and/or the Dragonreach inundate the edges of any such subsidence, “growing” a larger cataclysm and altering everything).
All of which is a long-winded way of saying that there are too many variables at play to make any one outcome inevitable or even likely, beyond the fact that there WILL BE attempts by everybody with sufficient ambitions and muscle to control the Lis. With, at the very least, castles and fortified harbors at both its mouths, fortresses along the length of the river, and riverbank roads.
So saith Ed. I'll send the second half of his reply as soon as I can (Net connection a little rocky right now),
love to all,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 03:08:08
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Hi again, everyone. As promised, the second half of Ed's reply to Hoondatha about the theoretical shape of the Realms with a fast-flowing, easily-navigated (at least southbound) River Lis:
Everyone from beholders and mind flayers to the ruling families of Amn, and the zulkirs of Thay (or just Szass Tam, if your campaign has gone in that direction) will try to control or at least dominate the River Lis transportation corridor. Many of the players I’ve listed in this paragraph are the secondary sort of foe (like the tsochari) who would prefer to let someone ELSE go to all the trouble of conquering, clearing fortifying, and building—and then just come along and take over, or stand behind the thrones and let others be the targets and do the work, while they enjoy the fruits and the delight of stealthy power through manipulation.
Nor are the Chosen or Harpers unlikely to resist the urge to show up and oppose such manipulators. And why not the magically-powerful families of Halruaa, if your campaign is pre-Spellplague, using their skyships? Or if you embrace the Realms depicted in the 4e FRCG, the Five Companies? In the same way that the great canal system notion (developed by Phil Athans in his Watercourse trilogy) has the potential to alter the balance of power across most of Faerûn, and so lure all who have or seek power to get involved in this important new matter, a clear and fast-flowing River Lis will be a magnet for all who seek wealth and power in this part of the Realms.
Which will really put the woods of Cormanthor under pressure, causing the elves to Retreat in earnest (perhaps even booby-trapping the ruins of Myth Drannor, and/or Tangledtrees, to REALLY take a toll of invaders, in their wake) and for good, or spurring them to muster all the arms, magic, and allies they can and hold Cormanthyr, the Lis and both its banks and all. They’d have to fight endless wars to hold it, of course (even if there are no daemonfey armies in your Realms, and no resurgence of the orcs of Vastar), and this could become the centerpoint of a very interesting Realms campaign.
One could even set a campaign at a point in time when whoever holds the Lis has become old and decadent, the river is one long fortified canal lined with keeps crammed with bored guards and “duty wizards,” and the time is ripe for corruption, intrigue, stealthily-opened gates/portals, and an internal war for control of the Lisen Run.
Definitely whoever held a clear and fast-flowing Lis would become the wealthiest and most dominant territory in the Moonsea region—or a shattered battleground held by no one and traversed by battle or under uneasy truces punctuated by repeated skirmishes. In the history Realmslore gives us to date, Mulmaster and Zhentil Keep are the most successful of the Moonsea powers, but if others combined to destroy them (as Phlan and long-ago Irongarth were destroyed), Melvaunt or Thentia or Hillsfar could well take their places as the most dominant cities. Even a Rage of Dragons, an earthquake or city-swallowing rift opening into the Underdark below (with the resultant tidal waves that would crash around the Moonsea; recall the fate of Sulasspryn), or a self-invoked (through careless or reckless magic, or an internal spell-struggle) devastation could destroy or humble a city overnight or in a tenday, and change everything.
In short, the sort of interesting times that humble everyone—and forge REAL adventurer-heroes.
So saith Ed, who will now turn to the Battle of the Lisen Sands so enigmatically mentioned in Realmslore (by him, long ago, without any of the details he’d created about it making it into print).
Sorry, Markustay, but the date given is correct: 1346 DR. Let’s see what else Ed will reveal about it, in the next exciting offering of Realmslore before the need to pay his bills and taxes snatch Ed away from us again, back into real-world writing and distractions . . .
love,
THO
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 03:51:04
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Too. Much. Realmslore. Brain shutting down now.
Amazing stuff, Ed! Many, many thanks to you and the lovely and variously talented THO. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 28 Dec 2010 03:51:54 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 05:29:12
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[pole-axed steer look]Holy cow.[/look]
That's flat-out incredible, Ed. The Lis-as-is and Lis-as-I-changed-it both. I'd no idea I was making such a mammoth change just with a bit of terrain substitution, but now that you lay it out, it makes a whole lot of sense. And, of course, to your list of players I'd add the sea elves of Selu'Maraar, who have a very vested interest in the river.
Wow. I'm close to speechless (though thankfully I can still type  ). Lots of great ideas. That group may be getting together in the near future, and now I know what'll be coming their way. The poor water breathers are about to be inundated with air breathers. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 05:38:38
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| Another differentiation between the swampy and swift-running Lis would be (I would think) that the Zhents wouldn't have been forced to push so much trade overland, given the access they could have to the SoFS via a deep and broad River Lis. It might be that the Zhents were never forced to blaze the trade road across Anauroch, leaving them with increased influence in Sembia and Cormyr. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 06:06:58
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| Thanks ED & Lady THO for all that lore on the Lisen region...and what I like most is that it doesn't take much to make the Canon Lis lore fit with what I put together from the Ladies hints about the Lisen elves..dropped earlier this year.....I love ..& can't wait for the Battle of Lisen Sands.... :-) |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 07:22:40
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Thanks for all of that, THO and Ed (including those rather interesting dreams I had...) Don't worry - I prefer to be wrong, strangely enough. A person who is always right never learns anything. 
As for what KotG just said - the Dales (and by association, Cormanthor) would not have been as important militarily/economically to the Zhentarrim. A secure and swift Sea-trade route (probably ending at Westgate, or in Hlondeth, using the Old Tethir road to reach the Swordcoast) would have had the Zhents concentrate far more on their oft-forgotten southern holdings, and they would have been trying to grab places like Ilipur or Pros, rather then the Dales. This means Cormyr would have to turn their attention south for the Zhents, rather then north, and such historic events as the annexation of Tilverton may never have happened.
Which means Ed's group would have had it pretty boring in a Zhent-free Dalelands. 
Also, the Zhents were highly active in Sembia (because of the trade route from the Standing Stone down Rauthauvyr's Road), as were the Red Wizards, who often competed for the same nefarious resources (mostly criminal). Without the Zhent presence in Sembia, the Thayans would have been less curtailed in their activities, which could have been disastrous. Once you shift the trade routes, the entire balance-of-power is interrupted and the political landscape changes. The Zhents understood that by controlling economies you could control the people, and that was why they were always so desperate to find new trade routes (that didn't pass through or by 'goodly' Cormyr and the Dales).
Change the trade and you change the world. The largest purely-martial war in recent Realms history was the Tuigan invasion... which was caused by the nations around the Wastes refusing to pay tribute to use the trade routes.
Interesting about the Lisen, I would never have thought of Water Nagas. I'd probably modify that just a bit for my own game, but that doesn't change the rest - great stuff.
Thank you for the Link, Misc - I had no idea what those were. kinda like a cross between a Sule Lich and a Malaugrym - interesting.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 08:29:01
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MT, I would agree, if the only reason for the eastward road was the trade in the Dales: But the Dales are only important to the Zhents inasmuch as they lead to the incredibly lucrative Sword Coast (read;Waterdeep) and Tethyrian/Amnian/Calishite markets. With access to the ports in the Dragon Reach, the Zhents no longer need to take the northerly trade route through the desert. That ALONE is a massive power shift in no less than 3 regions.
Having said that, I can also see a 'Lis enabled' Zhentarim concentrating their efforts in Chessenta, Impiltur, Thesk, and Thay. Which might mean that Khelben never plants the Scepter of the Sorceror Kings for Fzoul (to facilitate the deal he needed to make with the Zhents), meaning that he never breaks away from the Harpers...
Even an old hand at the Realms can be astounded at the number of ripples that a pebble can throw in the pond, sometimes. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 11:11:54
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| Dear Ed & Lady THO was Eueurarlor on the eastern or western side of the Nuathlis mouth??? |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 12:41:34
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Thank you Ed and THO for such wonderful lore about the Lis and the prod to what happens if you change things around as well, it all makes very interesting reading 
Cheers
Damian
ps inquisitive minds might like to know the location of Irongarth and how/why it was destroyed? (please )
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 28 Dec 2010 12:47:44 |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
270 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 14:48:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
So saith Ed. Who won’t be nearly so verbose in his next two answers (about Hoondatha’s take on the River Lis, and the Battle of the Lisen Sands that Asharak first asked about, to spark all of this interest in the river and what history has unfolded in or around it). Expect that lore soon.
love to all,
THO
Thank you very much my Lady for this awesome lore about the Lis.
I expect lore about the battle impatiently... |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 15:08:36
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Hi again, all! As promised, Ed reveals details of the fabled Battle of the Lisen Sands. I had this in my (virtual) hands when posting Ed's Hoondatha answer, but my Net connection went down entirely before I could share it with you.
Yet we're back on deck now, so without further ado, heeeeere’s Ed:
The Battle of the Lisen Sands
In early Eleint of 1346 DR, scattered battles on the waves of the Moonsea had been going on for almost six summers, not to mention assassinations and attempted winter arson on ships in drydock in several Moonsea ports. City rulers all around the ice-rimed sea spent the cold months muttering thoughts of war, and sending agents south to try to hire battle-ready mages for the skirmishes of next spring.
Mulmaster and Zhentil Keep were the strongest of these city-state combatants, but both had separately hit upon the notion of trying to force the other Moonsea ports (primarily Melvaunt, Thentia, and Hulberg), who’d proven to be untrustworthy allies and rash in warfare, to make war on each other, letting them eliminate or at least weaken each other and buying Mulmaster and Zhentil Keep time to build more ships, equip and train real armies, and gird themselves with battle-ready mages, for the real struggle to come.
Hillsfar was showing signs of wanting to join in the struggle, as were the ambitious merchants of Scardale and the ruthless tyrants of Calaunt—and merchants from Sembia and Raven’s Bluff were quietly lining up to sponsor this or that ruler (or waiting rival) or city, to protect their business interests regardless of who emerged victorious.
Mulmaster’s High Blade hit upon the idea of blockading the Lis throughout the summer, drawing attacking ships into a variety of traps (floating catapults designed to sink overloaded cogs and caravels, spells ready to swamp vessels, storm spells and the like) while at the same time guarding and guiding gems and trade-bars of smelted metal south to Raven’s Bluff along mountain trails and the roads of the Vast. Victories over Calaunt in several small, vicious battles in the northern Vast had emboldened Mulmaster in such thinking, and the moment they murmured these plans into certain ears in “the Bluff,” merchants of that city poured coins into hiring mercenaries and sending them north to Mulmaster.
Certain Zhentarim got word of these plans (probably from merchants of Ravens Bluff they’d already bought, or established covert holds over), raged for a day or so, and decided that enough was enough: Mulmaster was to be shattered again, as it had been shattered before (at the end of the Moonsea War, some forty summers earlier).
They decided to hurl all of their magelings (lesser wizards) and every seaworthy naval ship they had or could seize from the merchant vessels docked in Zhentil Keep, and set sail without delay.
The clash occurred off Lisenmouth, and raged for a tenday, interrupted by a series of small (but spell-assisted) storms that scattered ships repeatedly. Melvaunt and Hulburg got wind of the battle (literally, from ships blown into their harbors) and joined in, with reckless enthusiasm.
Mulmaster’s traps and its fighting crews took a high toll of attacking foes, but when Zhentil Keep reassembled their fleet, the maroon-sailed ships of Mulmaster were outnumbered and beset.
A few were blown apart by spells, or set ablaze, and a surviving handful fled for their home harbor. Others were cut off from that escape, and instead set sail down the Lis, hotly pursued by Zhent ships following orders to “destroy Mulmaster’s sails, once and for all.”
The Battle of the Lisen Sands was about to begin.
So saith Ed. Who having set the stage, will Reveal All in Part 2, coming momentarily . . .
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 15:09:54
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Hi again, all. Herewith, Part 2 of Ed’s recounting of the Battle of the Lisen Sands:
Swollen by the spring waters that followed a wet, heavy-snows winter, the Lis and the Flooded Forest were one vast mist-shrouded, tree-studded lake, and the vessels of Mulmaster scattered and fled in all directions across the swamp—where most promptly ran aground, or were holed by standing dead trees, and took on water.
The Zhents followed, and a swimming, splashing, scrambling battle of utter chaos ensued; the forces involved could barely find each other, let alone organize or communicate effectively. Melvauntan warriors fell upon the Zhents from behind, spells were hurled—and the Wet Lisen roused the swamp against all of the invaders, keying on anyone who used magic (which primarily meant the Zhentarim magelings and their personal Zhentilar bodyguards).
Late-arriving ships from Melvaunt and Thentia, and a few straggling Zhent vessels, were attacked and then boarded on the Lis by Cormanthan elves—because, like the Wet Lisen who’d mustered all of their dominated or controlled monsters against the intruders, the elves considered the Lisen Sands their own territory; large warbands of humans were to be resisted and either eliminated or sent fleeing.
Traditionally, the Cormanthan elves were well-practiced in spying upon (and betimes using magic to hamper) shipping on the Lis, but avoided the heart of the Flooded Forest because the reeking decay of the drowned land upset them too much—all those dead dryads and trees, and muck where lush greenery should be growing—and because of the fell swamp monsters. However, enraged, they now pursued the intruding humans everywhere.
As the darkness of the first night of the battle fell, shivering humans who lit fires swiftly discovered what a fatal mistake this was, as it let everyone else in the swamps—and black dragons summoned by the Wet Lisen, swooping out of the night—readily find them.
So saith Ed, who will wrap this account up with a third and final part, to follow momentarily . . .
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 15:10:32
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And here I am again, fellow scribes, with the third and last part of Ed’s Lisen Sands battle report:
The next day, most of the surviving humans had no stomach left for battle; they just wanted to fight their way out of the swamps. So they tried doing that. It proved to be a long day for some of them, and a very short one for others. As the humans dwindled into scattered individuals rather than military forces, elves became the primary targets of the Wet Lisen. Savaged, the Fair Folk soon fell back to the west bank of the Lis, withdrawing from the fray, leaving the swamp monsters to their deadly hunt, chase, and slaughter of humans . . . and a second night came.
By the dawn of the third day, a few sailors of Mulmaster stumbled up out of the swamps, onto higher ground, and started the long and dragon-harried trek home through the forested hills and ridges. Perhaps a dozen men—no more—returned to their city, and perhaps half that many sailors from other cities survived somehow, to tell their tales of the disastrous battle. Almost a score of Zhentarim escaped by using teleport rings, to report fearfully back to Manshoon and other senior Zhents.
Though those accounts were received icily, the senior Zhents took secret comfort in the fact that Mulmaster couldn’t conquer the Lis or even turn their backs on the Lisen lands with any confidence—so Zhentil Keep’s forces could engage Mulmaster’s at times and places of their choosing, knowing their overland caravans could win the mundane daily “getting richer and more influential” battle over Mulmaster’s precarious mountain routes (already imperiled by orcs, and about to become far more threatened by Zhent magelings sent to cause avalanches, cave-ins, and orc- and monster-rousings with their spells).
The Battle of the Lisen Sands was remembered as an infamous disaster in cities across the Moonsea, establishing the firm belief that the Flooded Forest was a place to avoid at all costs, and the Lis itself a route only for large and well-armed warships to use, in the best of weather and in full readiness for battle. The swamp, it was said, “spawned monsters galore, beyond counting” and “evil elves” smote all humans with arrows or with “fell magic.” The elves were blamed for everything, even for “calling up” the swamp monsters with their magic.
Only the handful of surviving Zhentarim magelings knew better—and those they reported to. Manshoon’s interest in covertly conquering or cowing dale after dale, and plotting to subvert the nobles of Cormyr (especially in Arabel, Marsember, and the Hullack), took fire at this time. (His plans to infiltrate the leaders of Sembia, was already well under way, but hampered by the many ambitious independent trading cabals of that land, who paid little or no attention to the will and decrees of their rulers.)
So saith Ed—and there you have it! Enjoy, all! I’m hoping Ed will return soon with some more replies in these dying days of 2010 . . .
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 15:14:06
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Hi again, all. Sorry, Snowblood!
This from Ed:
The glass-spired elven city was on the eastern side of Lisenmouth.
So saith Ed. Who must rush off to his library day job now . . .
love to all,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 16:19:15
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...And to Knight of the Gate, re. this: "Another differentiation between the swampy and swift-running Lis would be (I would think) that the Zhents wouldn't have been forced to push so much trade overland, given the access they could have to the SoFS via a deep and broad River Lis. It might be that the Zhents were never forced to blaze the trade road across Anauroch, leaving them with increased influence in Sembia and Cormyr."
Your first sentence is dead-on correct. Indeed, overland trade routes through independent (and therefore possibly hostile, now and infuture) territories would have been largely unnecessary, from the Zhent point of view.
Your second sentence, however: no.
Manshoon and Fzoul wanted to establish the SHORTEST (and therefore cheapest) trade route between Zhentil Keep and the Sword Coast ports - - and they wanted it to be a trade route they controlled every inch of. So, having taken over the Citadel of the Raven and conquered the valley of the Tesh, subduing Daggerdale was next (as they established Darkhold, far to the west, to serve as a base for dominating the wilderness area and preventing Cormyr "riding out to block" Zhent trade once the route became established. Then subvert Llorkh and Loudwater, giving them ports on the navigable River Delimbiyr, establish a covert presence in Scornubel, put a route through the Stonelands via Yellow Snake Pass, and start taking over waystops on the trade-roads near Boareskyr (as seen in HAND OF FIRE). Then work on Shadowdale, Voonlar, and Yulash.
The Stonelands bit of the route is always troublesome, but it's now a flanking alternative as the Bedine are subverted (despite the pesky Harper Lander, and the Bedine "witch" Ruha, that Troy Denning wrote about in THE PARCHED SEA and its subsequent sequel) and that shorter route across Anauroch (remote enough that very few countries [Cormyr and Sembia, I'm looking at you] can easily reach to harrass Zhent caravans there).
It's all about having the shortest trade-route, that you control every stretch of, so you can REALLY undercut other merchants, and still make a very handsome profit (whereas your competitors are a chain of traders ["middlemen" in modern parlance] who each have to make profit on their transactions. You can get there first with the fresh, just-coming-into-season fruit that will command the highest prices of the season. You can respond to fads and fashions by selling just what's "hot" right now. You get richer and richer . . .
These are my words, but I'm heavily paraphrasing Ed here, covering ground he's explained many times over the years (often to TSR designers - - which is where some of them got the later idea to create Red Wizard trade enclaves). The Zhents aren't foolish enough to think that slinging the fastest spells and hurling armies at every foe will make you victorious conquerors AND KEEP YOU ON TOP. They want to be the "tolerated evil" lifeline that supplies the goods everyone needs, and so daren't be messed with in a muster-armies manner. They want to become essential, so Waterdeep and other places will grudgingly support the Zhents in any dispute...because they need them.
There. A peek behind the curtain ("pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! I have spoken!") of the Realms. Nothing new here, but truths often lost with the passing years and new Realms fans hearing more about Shade and the revitalization of Szass Tam and so on . . .
Yes. For now, my work here is done. 
love to all,
THO |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
270 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 16:51:26
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Great stuff about the Battle of Lisen Sands.
Thanks for this very instructive answer...  |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 17:05:08
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So, as I alluded to, before Manshoon 'lost it' the eastern Zhents were more likely to just ignore 'previous wrongs' (in their eyes), cut their losses, and try to find a more lucrative route. The Zhents weren't really evil, they were simply unscrupulous capitalists. At least, I picture Fzoul (and maybe a younger Manshoon) that way. Post-Clone Wars, things changed, and Manshoon became more paranoid, and therefor more likely to ignore simpler solutions for ones involving him hurting his enemies.
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
Dear Ed & Lady THO was Eueurarlor on the eastern or western side of the Nuathlis mouth???
There is a reference to a city there in an old source - I found it while trying to find out about the Lisen Sands Battle in the other thread. I don't remeber precisely where I found it, but I might have mentioned the source in that thread.
And now I have to ask, why didn't the Elves ever establish a port in the Dragon's Reach? Shouldn't they have seen the potential in Scarsdale long before the humans arrived?
In fact, other then Evermeet, why weren't FR's surface Elves ever interested in shipping? Even in the most ancient histories, we find no mention of Elven naval engagements.
You know what, I think I already know the answer (pertaining to FR's 'theme'), but I'll let the question stand both to be sure, and so others can share in Ed's wisdom.
Edit: I almost forgot! That last bit of lore made me think of 'twisted fey' in the form of evil Dryads. I vaguely recall something like that from somewhere - anyone know of anything like that? C'mon - a 'Darkling Dryad', almost like a Banshee (undead fey), but connected to a dead tree - how cool is that? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Dec 2010 17:32:21 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 18:49:40
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To take a stab at an answer to that, referencing Ed's long-ago GenCon seminars: the elves aren't all that interested in trade (except insofar as it gains them needed items/substances to keep inroads into their forests at bay, and renew the forests). The Cormanthan elves are primarily interested in living in harmony with the forest, and tending/continually improving the forest around them to make it vibrant, balanced, lush - - and (aside perhaps from boundary "sacrificial" gorves of "cut these AND ONLY THESE trees")woodcutter-free.
To quote THO: I'm heavily paraphrasing Ed here.
BB |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 18:54:59
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I realize that, but the Elves (both past and present) have believed in maintaining strong military power, and a navy goes with that. That is why Evermeet has one - it makes sense for a nation that has coast (as Cormanthyr did) to have a navy.
The other reason is trade, but I think I have that figured out. Elves didn't need ships, or even caravans. They were far more efficient then that.
As for the 'sea power' part of the question, I think I just thought of a reason for that as well. Whats better then ships? Submarines! (or anything else that can attack from beneath the waves). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Dec 2010 18:58:38 |
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 19:10:34
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Heh. How about this explanation? As per SPELLJAMMER (part of the canon Realms, remember), the elves have aerial navies. So, no need for ports for enemy ships to attack . . .
Unless you envisage elves as sneaky/nasty/paranoid enough to set up a "dummy port" as a gigantic booby trap for enemies to attack and get chewed up in... |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 19:34:31
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| Another thought on the navy idea: what's better than submarines? Sea elves, and all their magic. And there's a thousands of years old sea elven nation (well, ok, much of that time it was a duchy of a larger empire) in the Dragon Reach. Did the elves of Cormanthor have much interaction/alliance with the sea elves of Selu'Maraar, beyond those in Lake Semberholme? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 21:04:12
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'Sea Elves' are what I meant when I said 'submarines', LOL.
Sea elves are also on good terms with the Giant Whales (leviathans?) the dwell in the depths, which could probably take-out most ships.
Its just that the whole idea of Sea-going Elves is so cool, and it's kinda wasted way to the west, where almost no players will ever get to see them.
Unless Evermeet ships can appear in Inner Sea harbors? I know of at least one canon portal that connects the two Seas (via the Lake of Steam), and another that goes from the eastern Ocean (in Kara-Tur) to the Dragonmere.
EDIT:
And since I keep posting in this thread, I guess I'd better ask another (related) question: Are there any portals that go from the sea to land, or vice-versa? I'm just picturing some poor saps sailing into a portal... and winding up in a desert somewhere. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Dec 2010 21:07:45 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 00:34:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And now I have to ask, why didn't the Elves ever establish a port in the Dragon's Reach?
I thought they did? I thought Ylraphon was their port town when Cormanthyr spread across the whole of the Dragonreach into the Vast?
Cheers
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 29 Dec 2010 00:50:00 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 01:27:53
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| I know we're nearing the end of the 2010 scroll [I can't believe I'll be opening a new one very soon] fellow scribes, but please, let's try to keep the non-Ed chatter to a minimum. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 02:44:35
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Hi again, all. Ed still has family visiting (and, of course, plenty of writing assignments on his desk), but he's going to TRY to answer one unanswered question from each year of this thread, before the end of 2010.
Wish him luck . . .
love to all,
THO |
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createvmind
Senior Scribe
490 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 02:45:02
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That was an awesome read, thanks for the Xmas gift Ed!!!
Are there many gorynych in the realms 1370's, any lore you can share on them/it, any legendary ones of note?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 03:09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all. Ed still has family visiting (and, of course, plenty of writing assignments on his desk), but he's going to TRY to answer one unanswered question from each year of this thread, before the end of 2010.
Wish him luck . . .
love to all,
THO
I wish him luck! And can I nominate one of my passing questions for that list? I've got one in particular from 2007 that I'm still curious about...  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Dec 2010 03:09:51 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 03:17:26
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Which question, O most alluring and desirable of hamsters?
love,
THO |
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Topic |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2010)
Topic Locked
