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Longtime Lurker
Seeker
51 Posts |
 Posted - 06 May 2010 : 02:55:05
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Oh, boy. NOW you've got me interested in the Realms again.
Can't wait for Ed's next novel...
Any bets that Mystra will somehow appear? Or be strongly hinted at by some mysterious manifestation, at least? |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 04:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
well if they did a reboot, maybe they will leave the 4e realms as a possibility of what may happen.
Interestingly, this is why the concept of the 4e Realms and the post-Spellplague era don't bother me as much any more. And hasn't for almost a year-and-a-half now. Because, being a long-time Marvel fan, I can appreciate the opportunities that come with the "What-If?" scenario. Thus, I usually interpret the 4e Realms to be a possible example of such a scenario. In this case, "What If Cyric Killed Mystra?"
Sage, I agree entirely. In my case, when I get back behind the DM screen again, I plan to run the Cormyr-Anauroch-Shadowdale trilogy as a *real* opportunity for the PCs to make a difference and actually prevent the canon Spellplague. There will still be magical chaos resulting from Mystra's battle with Cyric and Shar, which is quickly joined by Azuth and Savras and, on the other side, Velsharoon... and not quite as quickly by Selune... guess which side she takes? In the end, however, the outcome will rest entirely in the hands of the PCs... which, ironically, is the premise that everything was blown up on in the first place. Gee, why was that necessary again?      
Edit: Fixed misidentification typo; note to self: don't post when tired.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 06 May 2010 23:12:26 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 04:22:26
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To keep Ed's scroll Ed's scroll... I'm also curious about these thoughts regarding the restoration of the Weave... and I'm equally aware that Ed likely can't say word one about even the idea of it happening. I would hope that such a development would be handled either as a reboot to the end of the 2E timeline and the Manshoon Wars (or to 1375 and the restoration of Myth Drannor; either one provides plenty of campaign potential), or as a "what if..." scenario such as mentioned by The Sage, in which Ao decides that Cyric has gone far enough, and breaks the rules against major-event-altering chronomancy in Realmspace (they're his rules, after all) and (essentially) also a reboot, but explained in-universe as an exploration of a possible future for Toril.
Ed, I won't ask you for your thoughts on this hypothesis, but I do have a related question: Why (apart from the obvious history-breaking effects) do the Realms have such strong barriers against chronomancy and past-altering magic? I understand the whole idea of the universe being created not necessarily being the same one that the PCs left, and hence creating paradox, but such paradox can always be circumvented with careful planning and well-worded wish magic... Vangerdahast and Nalavara notwithstanding.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 05:05:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage:
Mystra's Chosen retain part of her divine power, which is the silver fire [see e.g. The Seven Sisters pg. 6], upon her death, so that Mystra/the Weave can be reconstructed.
I've mentioned this on other threads, but I'll say it here as well: Isn't The Srinshee, with all her fifty something levels and more raw magical power than Larloch a Chosen of Mystra?
And a question: Is the Risen Sun Heresy really a heresy? We see in 4e that Lathander is replaced by Amaunator, and if I recall correctly, it happened wilingly. So really, was it a heresy? And if not, why did priests of Lathander term it so? What did they have to gain? |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 06:13:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
I've mentioned this on other threads, but I'll say it here as well: Isn't The Srinshee, with all her fifty something levels and more raw magical power than Larloch a Chosen of Mystra?
According to Ed's The Annotated Elminster, as well other sources, yes. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 07:26:07
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
And a question: Is the Risen Sun Heresy really a heresy? We see in 4e that Lathander is replaced by Amaunator, and if I recall correctly, it happened wilingly. So really, was it a heresy? And if not, why did priests of Lathander term it so? What did they have to gain?
I think the answer is fairly simple, really. It began as a Heresy. Lathander was silent on the matter for some reason, and I assume that at some point after the casting of Amaunator's eternal sun, the majority of the faithful of Lathander came to believe that it was true. Therefore, Lathander "ascended" (*mutters*descended IMHO*mutters*) to become Amaunator. It is not certain if this new Amaunator is the same Amaunator from the time of Netheril, or simply Lathander embracing a new aspect.
It might also have something to do with the deaths of Tyr and Helm. There was a gap that needed to be filled, so Lathander filled it. Sadly, it still leaves a gaping hole in the pantheon as far as I am concerned. I don't usually find myself fond of male deities, but in Lathander's case I always had a soft spot for him. Gotta love the god of new beginnings. 
Ed can probably clarify this better than I... I might be completely wrong as half of the above was wild speculation on my behalf. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
Edited by - Zandilar on 06 May 2010 07:28:17 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 13:19:05
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Honestly a new goddess of magic or the previous one could be restore without changing the current year (1481 in the novel line). An artifact created during Mystras’ reign would contain a pure form of her essence and the old weave. Mix it with the blood of a Chosen or really powerful arcane user who represent magic in its raw form. Then find a proper host receptacle for the new deity of magic. An exarch who is willing to risk losing its identity would work or maybe several greater gods creating a blank avatar.
Then add the final ingredients of T.L. S.
To keep this on topic, Can Ed gives us another hint about the new El book? For example, are there minor quotes opening each chapter?
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - Bakra on 06 May 2010 13:20:29 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 17:29:16
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Heh. Re the opening quotes, Ed tells me: "Yes and no. Just tell them: yes and no."
love,
THO |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2010 : 23:16:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
<snip>Mix it with the blood of a Chosen or really powerful arcane user who represent magic in its raw form. Then find a proper host receptacle for the new deity of magic. An exarch who is willing to risk losing its identity would work or maybe several greater gods creating a blank avatar. </snip>
Hrm... anyone else think it's just a curious coincidence that this idea comes up just as we're talking about the Srinshee and her status as a (former, since we're by definition talking post-Spellplague) Chosen of Mystra?
Edit: By way of making this a question for Ed: Ed, does this sound like a coherent plan to you? I understand completely if your answer is "no comment" or "NDA"... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 06 May 2010 23:20:05 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 00:16:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
<snip>Mix it with the blood of a Chosen or really powerful arcane user who represent magic in its raw form. Then find a proper host receptacle for the new deity of magic. An exarch who is willing to risk losing its identity would work or maybe several greater gods creating a blank avatar. </snip>
Hrm... anyone else think it's just a curious coincidence that this idea comes up just as we're talking about the Srinshee and her status as a (former, since we're by definition talking post-Spellplague) Chosen of Mystra?
Edit: By way of making this a question for Ed: Ed, does this sound like a coherent plan to you? I understand completely if your answer is "no comment" or "NDA"...
The idea has been roaming around my head long before Srinshee question came up. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 01:51:49
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Hmm, the return of the Weave and a god/goddess of Magic. I like it and fully support it. But, I would make it so that those who learned magic without the Weave would still be free to use their Weaveless magic. So in a sense, the new god/goddess of Magic would have be tasked with converting those who learned to live without them. So you would have two camps, Weave magic (easier to use but restricted in power) and Weaveless or raw magic (harder to use but it's power is much less limited).
Now for my Ed question, my first btw. I am a brewer of beer and I want to create a character for an upcoming game whos is proficient in brewing. What information could you give me about brewing in the Realms and maybe what types of brews that are popular throughout the Realms.
Thanks! |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 02:04:52
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Ho ho! Many of Ed's original players either worked in breweries or brewed their own, in younger days, and one of them, Ken Woods, co-founded the Black Oak Brewery in Oakville, Ontario, a microbrewery that has won many awards for its brews, and flourishes to this day (with Ken in the saddle). This question should be right down Ed's alley, so to speak . . .
In published Realms canon, pages 127 through the first item on page 129 of AURORA'S WHOLE REALMS CATALOG describes popular ales of the Realms (covering Bitter Black, Dragon's Breath Beer, Elminster's Choice, Golden Sands Brews (a collective heading; three main types are noted: Basic, Gold, and Orange), Iriaeboran North Brew, Luiren's Best, Old One Eye, Shadowdark Ale, and "Suzale." However, this roster is FAR from comprehensive.
Off your query goes to Ed, and no doubt he'll reply as soon as he can (boy, is he busy right now!).
love,
THO |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 04:13:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ho ho! Many of Ed's original players either worked in breweries or brewed their own, in younger days, and one of them, Ken Woods, co-founded the Black Oak Brewery in Oakville, Ontario, a microbrewery that has won many awards for its brews, and flourishes to this day (with Ken in the saddle). This question should be right down Ed's alley, so to speak . . .
In published Realms canon, pages 127 through the first item on page 129 of AURORA'S WHOLE REALMS CATALOG describes popular ales of the Realms (covering Bitter Black, Dragon's Breath Beer, Elminster's Choice, Golden Sands Brews (a collective heading; three main types are noted: Basic, Gold, and Orange), Iriaeboran North Brew, Luiren's Best, Old One Eye, Shadowdark Ale, and "Suzale." However, this roster is FAR from comprehensive.
Off your query goes to Ed, and no doubt he'll reply as soon as he can (boy, is he busy right now!).
love,
THO
Nice! You know, I kind of figured there were some brewer/gamers hanging around the Great North. One small additional specific question. Do Realms brewers have knowledge of yeast? I know that yeast was unknown in the non-fictional world until about 200 years ago. Before then no one knew what actually caused the beer to ferment. They just knew that if they followed a certain process, the resulting liquid would eventually ferment and was quite tasty. I look forward to Ed's answer. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:24:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Any chance we can ever see any of El's writings as Realmslore? I'd love to see some of those songs nd chapbooks!!!
Milady Hooded One, I'll second this request... especially the bit asking about songs.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 06:56:10
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In the God Catcher, magic is still referred to as the Weave (I have not seen that elsewhere yet, so I wonder how common that practice is?).
I don't know of any other Weave references, except in a RPGA adventure I wrote, where a former servant to Azuth states that the Weave and Mystra are gone forever. Of course, that servant could be wrong or lying (especially considering the circumstances) but I believe that is R&D's stance at the moment.
Just remember that speculation can be fun - but it hardly ever productive :P
Gomez
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Edited by - gomez on 07 May 2010 06:57:15 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 09:15:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
...Dragon's Breath Beer...
love,
THO
I have to pounce on this one, being a great fan of the original Quest for Glory (or Hero's Quest by the Coles from Siera Games back in the day). Was that put into the AWRC as an homage to QfG, or did the Coles possibly put it in QfG in reference to the AWRC? Or is it simply a very popular name for a brew in fantasy settings? |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 11:12:46
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quote:
Hmm, the return of the Weave and a god/goddess of Magic. I like it and fully support it. But, I would make it so that those who learned magic without the Weave would still be free to use their Weaveless magic. So in a sense, the new god/goddess of Magic would have be tasked with converting those who learned to live without them. So you would have two camps, Weave magic (easier to use but restricted in power) and Weaveless or raw magic (harder to use but it's power is much less limited).
Good points all of them, and i too would like to throw my support to this particularly hopeful idea. Might be a reach, but a man can dream
quote:
Ho ho! Many of Ed's original players either worked in breweries or brewed their own, in younger days, and one of them, Ken Woods, co-founded the Black Oak Brewery in Oakville, Ontario, a microbrewery that has won many awards for its brews, and flourishes to this day (with Ken in the saddle). This question should be right down Ed's alley, so to speak . . .
In published Realms canon, pages 127 through the first item on page 129 of AURORA'S WHOLE REALMS CATALOG describes popular ales of the Realms (covering Bitter Black, Dragon's Breath Beer, Elminster's Choice, Golden Sands Brews (a collective heading; three main types are noted: Basic, Gold, and Orange), Iriaeboran North Brew, Luiren's Best, Old One Eye, Shadowdark Ale, and "Suzale." However, this roster is FAR from comprehensive.
Off your query goes to Ed, and no doubt he'll reply as soon as he can (boy, is he busy right now!).
love,
THO
Ah a topic close to my own heart! Just one tiny addition to this would be great. Lady, could you please ask Ed (or maybe from your own scrolls if he ever presented it to you in one of your games) about some local ales/meads in the southern Delimbiyr Vale, or in the area betwixt The High Forest and The High Moor? The towns Loudwater, Zelbross and Secomber spring to mind, although i suspect they get a lot of their ales and spirits from Waterdeep?
-Stig- |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 13:44:08
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quote:
Originally posted by gomez
In the God Catcher, magic is still referred to as the Weave (I have not seen that elsewhere yet, so I wonder how common that practice is?).
I don't know of any other Weave references, except in a RPGA adventure I wrote, where a former servant to Azuth states that the Weave and Mystra are gone forever. Of course, that servant could be wrong or lying (especially considering the circumstances) but I believe that is R&D's stance at the moment.
Just remember that speculation can be fun - but it hardly ever productive :P
Gomez
Gomez check out this scroll. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 16:22:13
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Kyrene, I can't recall which TSR designer did that section of Aurora's (it was a "gang" product, with everyone at the company pitching in on a section). Shadowdark Ale came from Ed's notes, and most of the wines that follow on pages 129 and 130 are taken directly from his lore-notes, but the rest of the named brews were the work of someone(s) at TSR at the time.
However, Dragon's Breath (or "the breath of the dragon") is a VERY old fantasy trope, referenced in many long-ago Arthurian tales and several romances at the time of Amadis of Gaul and Palmerin of England (the literary genre Cervantes was lampooning in DON QUIXOTE; yes, THAT long ago), so the Aurora's brew might have nothing at all directly to do with the Sierra game. I just don't know.
Karen Boomgaarden, Bruce Heard, or Jeff Grubb might recall who did that section. Hmm...
love,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 20:22:49
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Hi, again, all.
Caolin, I’ve found a few beer mentions in the notes I took from things Ed’s said in play in recent years (this is FAR from all of Ed’s beer lore, just a sampling).
All of these were ordered and drunk at taverns in the Dales, Cormyr, Sembia, and around the Moonsea:
• Railur’s Red (a “red” amber ale made in the coastal lands of Cormyr and Sembia with three roast barleys, citrus rinds, and spices, and drunk throughout eastern Cormyr, Sembia, and the Dales).
• Old Black Goblin (a porter that contains cherrywood ash and licorice root, and really IS black; expensive, hard to find, and offered with haughty pride by expensive clubs in the cities of Cormyr and Sembia; it is brewed in secret backcountry locations, and the recipe and brewing are rumored to be controlled by a noble family that in recent decades has been much enriched by sales of its distinctive “hunched-black-stick-figure” branded kegs).
• Sarmsark (a bitter, strong-tasting, but light on the stomach ale much favoured by cheap taverns because patrons can drink a lot of it before feeling ill; tastes of orange rind [[real-world: not-very-sweet marmalade]], is made by many brewers using a widely-known method, and is plentiful and found throughout the Inner Sea lands.)
• Firesword (an amber ale traditionally made in Hillsfar, Yulash, and Zhentil Keep, and now found throughout the Moonsea and Dragonreach lands; with so many brewers in different places making similar beers, “firesword” now varies widely in taste and quality, but has long been an “inn standard” because it keeps well in a keg, and can be “revived” in taste if very old by warming it and dissolving honey into it).
• Battledale Dark (a thick, almost chewy stout made in Battledale a century ago, and recently revived by an enterprising Sembian brewer who settled in Battledale).
That's all so far, but there's lots more in the notes I haven't reached yet. We'll see what Ed adds to this.
love,
THO |
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The_Silversword
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 23:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by gomez
In the God Catcher, magic is still referred to as the Weave (I have not seen that elsewhere yet, so I wonder how common that practice is?).
Its listed in the glossary in the 4e FRCG: "Weave,the: A term for magic; once used to mean magic mediated by Mystra."
So yeah I'd say that the term is still in use to mean magic. |
I survived the Spellplague and all I got was this stupid sig. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 05:00:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi, again, all.
Caolin, I’ve found a few beer mentions in the notes I took from things Ed’s said in play in recent years (this is FAR from all of Ed’s beer lore, just a sampling).
All of these were ordered and drunk at taverns in the Dales, Cormyr, Sembia, and around the Moonsea:
• Railur’s Red (a “red” amber ale made in the coastal lands of Cormyr and Sembia with three roast barleys, citrus rinds, and spices, and drunk throughout eastern Cormyr, Sembia, and the Dales).
• Old Black Goblin (a porter that contains cherrywood ash and licorice root, and really IS black; expensive, hard to find, and offered with haughty pride by expensive clubs in the cities of Cormyr and Sembia; it is brewed in secret backcountry locations, and the recipe and brewing are rumored to be controlled by a noble family that in recent decades has been much enriched by sales of its distinctive “hunched-black-stick-figure” branded kegs).
• Sarmsark (a bitter, strong-tasting, but light on the stomach ale much favoured by cheap taverns because patrons can drink a lot of it before feeling ill; tastes of orange rind [[real-world: not-very-sweet marmalade]], is made by many brewers using a widely-known method, and is plentiful and found throughout the Inner Sea lands.)
• Firesword (an amber ale traditionally made in Hillsfar, Yulash, and Zhentil Keep, and now found throughout the Moonsea and Dragonreach lands; with so many brewers in different places making similar beers, “firesword” now varies widely in taste and quality, but has long been an “inn standard” because it keeps well in a keg, and can be “revived” in taste if very old by warming it and dissolving honey into it).
• Battledale Dark (a thick, almost chewy stout made in Battledale a century ago, and recently revived by an enterprising Sembian brewer who settled in Battledale).
That's all so far, but there's lots more in the notes I haven't reached yet. We'll see what Ed adds to this.
love,
THO
Many thanks THO! Me thinks I might want to try an Old Black Goblin. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 13:59:20
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Ed, what is your opinion of Helm? Personally, I've been intrigued by him ever since I as a young whippersnapper played Baldur's Gate 2 and heard the line "Never betray trust. Such is the way of the vigilant one". He is the god of guardians, and can one can therefore assume that he is rather uptight, but he's also very fond of children, who are most definitely NOT uptight. He's also unique, since he was the only god not to become mortal during the time of troubles. Out of all the scores of gods in the Realms, only he was deemed worthy by Ao. Only he had not failed.
So now I ask the creator himself, what his opinion is on the Eternal Guardian. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 15:51:20
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Hi again, all. I bring you the words of Ed of the Greenwood, in swift response to khorne's post about Helm, directly above:
Hi, khorne! Great question.
Helm has always been one of my favourites among the deities of the Realms. I created him to be staunch and steadfast and true, one of the very few who "stood unshakeably for one thing" rather than an intriguer or liar or dabbler in many portfolios and mortal doings. In this, he's similar to, say, Eldath and the other nature deities, but essentially different in that they are tied to living things that grow and change (and change in where and how they are found within the Realms), whereas Helm stands unmoved, because his "thing" is a principle.
Helm is the ultimate loner, and THE "hardass." He won't back down, even if it means his obvious destruction. He's the guy in the movie EXCALIBUR who says flatly, "I saw what I saw. The boy drew the sword."
I admire Helm greatly, and yet see him as a tragic figure, BECAUSE he's so dedicated. Where other deities can trick, make love, woo, get drunk, enjoy experiences, and so on, Helm is ever-vigilant, always "on the job."
So I designed him deliberately to have a softer, more affectionate side (that other designers like Eric Boyd and Julia Martin have picked up and expanded on) to make Helm less one-dimensional and therefore more resilient.
By his nature, Helm will never be a "mover," a force to start conflicts or grand plans or adventures. He's an obstacle; the closed door, the gate that must be won past, the ultimate sentinel. If you're not among the very strongest gods or haven't cobbled together a fighting alliance of strong gods, you CAN'T force your way past him. You can only win past by trickery (VERY hard to do) or by reasoning with Helm and truly presenting your cause as "more just" or the like.
All of which, in a real world full of deceit, half-truths, "spin," and outright misrepresentation, makes me admire Helm all the more. I thought it was important to separate the vigilant guardian from justice (Tyr) and other, similar gods (Torm, Tempus), and as time passes, I'm ever more convinced that I was right.
Yeah, I look up to the guy, fictional creation though he is. And isn't that success in itself, giving me (and, I hope, others) a "touchstone anchor" in life?
I hope this helps.
So saith Ed. Who still hopes to provide details of priesthoods somewhere, somehow, and somewhen...
love to all,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 08 May 2010 15:52:28 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 17:52:55
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Tantam All!
Ed a question (or three!) about Espar and Esparin and any relationship with Hullack the Druid if I may please?
I had always assumed that Espar was the capital of/or named after the now absorped Kingdom of Esparin (re: the Enchara lore from the Haunted Halls module). Obviously given what is written in 'The Sword that Never Sleeps' novel this appears not to be the case?
So is Espar named after Esparin and if so why is it on the western reaches of Cormyr rather than the north east where the Kingdom of Esparin was based? (the only theory I can come up with is that this is a deliberate choice by the Crown/Court Wizard to throw folks who are looking for Lost Esparin into the wrong area and therefore conceal the Lost Palace?).
Can you say anything more about Esparin? Was it a breakaway kingdom that came back into the fold? From printed lore its history revolves around Enchara and her marrying Palaghard I in the 12th century after he conquered it. So we have plenty of time for it to 'pop up' in the history of Cormyr before especially as it is based near Arabel and Cormyr 'proper' - it would seem to me therefore to be a short lived Kingdom?
Re the heraldry of Esparin with the Unicorn - made up as new or derived from a rebel family that broke from Cormyr? Or does the unicorn and trees have any link with the Hullack forest and/or Hullack himself? I ask because of the timeframe:
- From Pages from the Mages VI we learn that Hullack led the druids of the Wyvernwater 200 years ago (say 1100DR or so) about the same time Esparin was in force? We also know that the druids were slain by beholders who were served by gargoyles, bugbears, and quicklings. The eye tyrants sought to establish a realm in the area.
- Futhermore the 'Men in Green' used the Crystum of Tranquility to slay the Beholder King sometime after 1112DR when they recived the Crystrum from Shalgreth of the Wings (a member of the Hullack Circle given the preceeding lore in the 2E Prayers from the Faithful write up?)
Three pieces of Realmslore within a similar timeframe and similar location - just wondering if there is a connection between Esparin and Hullack?
Thanks Ed and THO for your time
Lammath Drios!
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 08 May 2010 21:05:20 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 22:36:53
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Hi, Damian! I sent your questions off to Ed, and received back a lightning-swift response (he’s just back from a funeral, and it seems he sat right down to answer them). So here we go . . .
“Ed a question (or three!) about Espar and Esparin and any relationship with Hullack the Druid if I may please?”
Of course, Damian! Your queries are ALWAYS welcome; fire away! :}
“I had always assumed that Espar was the capital of/or named after the now absorbed Kingdom of Esparin (re: the Enchara lore from the Haunted Halls module). Obviously given what is written in 'The Sword that Never Sleeps' novel this appears not to be the case?”
Espar is named after the vanished kingdom, yes, but it wasn’t always its capital (see next answer).
“So is Espar named after Esparin and if so why is it on the western reaches of Cormyr rather than the northeast where the Kingdom of Esparin was based? (The only theory I can come up with is that this is a deliberate choice by the Crown/Court Wizard to throw folks who are looking for Lost Esparin into the wrong area and therefore conceal the Lost Palace?).”
Yerespar began as a marketmoot around the westernmost fortress (which stood hard by the hilltop “Stronghold” seen in SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR, that the young future Knights played in; the Stronghold of today is actually the stone foundations of a cottage outbuilding of the royal mansion of Esparin, the keep that guarded that mansion having been entirely torn apart by Cormyrean fortresses, and the stones carried off for use in building the later Cormyrean cottages of Espar and elsewhere) of Esparin.
In the early years of Esparin’s existence, its seat of power was to the east, and it was then that what’s known today as “the Lost Palace” was built.
Later, as the Esparrin came to increasingly to depend on covert supplies of arms, mercenaries, mounts, food, and coin from certain nobles of Cormyr, the capital of the realm was moved to Yerespar, and it was renamed “Espar,” and the royal mansion and “Sword Keep” were built there.
The mansion was torched and utterly destroyed, along with Sword Keep, but the cottage had been blasted to bits by a wizard’s spell earlier in the conflicts between Esparin and Cormyr (in a failed attempt to slay royal Esparrin), and had been forgotten and never rebuilt, so its overgrown foundations survived.
After Palaghard wed Enchara and Esparin fell to Cormyr, the inhabitants of Esparin who were willing to swear loyalty to Cormyr’s Crown were allowed to remain in Espar (many retiring Purple Dragons were given land to settle on in and around Espar for decades thereafter, to “anchor” it in loyal hands). The other Esparrin had either been slain in battle with Cormyr, or were driven off, or had fled (most of them into the Dales and northern, backcountry Sembia, where there’s a distaste for Cormyr that lingers to this day).
So as not to “poke the sleeping dragon” of local anger against the Court in Suzail, the name “Espar” was tolerated and allowed to stand, rather than being replaced - - and yes, a factor in that decision was its location as the westernmost fringe of the conquered kingdom, rather than its heart (so, indeed, rebels and others seeking “Lost Esparin” were misdirected into the wrong area).
“Can you say anything more about Esparin? Was it a breakaway kingdom that came back into the fold? From printed lore its history revolves around Enchara and her marrying Palaghard I in the 12th century after he conquered it. So we have plenty of time for it to 'pop up' in the history of Cormyr before especially as it is based near Arabel and Cormyr 'proper' - it would seem to me therefore to be a short lived Kingdom?”
Esparin was a relatively short-lived kingdom, but rather than being a breakaway, it was more of a separately-founded place, in the northern wilderlands of the area between the Thunder Peaks and the Stormhorns, that the Purple Dragon lost to the elves, and the elves faded away before the ever-expanding human settlements of. In other words, the elves had already decided to give up the futile bloodshed of resisting the humans, and quietly surrender the territory west of the Thunder Peaks, retreating to the Elven Court (though some of them lingered in the Hullack). There were many dissatisfied humans from other lands who sought new lands where they could dwell in less oppression and more prosperity. Esparin was founded by one such (circa 1020 DR, though there are disputes as to the exact date and founder) and resisted the “authority” of exploring bands and monster-scouring patrols from Cormyr, eventually becoming raiders of Cormyr and being seen as “outlaw rebels” by Cormyr.
Esparrin always considered themselves owners and citizens of their own land, that had as much right to exist as “that other kingdom” of Cormyr to the south, and although they first mistrusted exiles from Cormyr and fugitives from Cormyrean justice as “spies sent among us,” over time they became proud to welcome “fellow oppressed” from Cormyr, to swell their ranks.
When Proster was king of Cormyr, he ignored Esparin’s rise, but his more famous son Baerovus saw Esparin as a threat when he came to the throne, and gave battle to its forces whenever he saw good opportunity. In the seemingly eternal struggle between House Obarskyr and the nobles of Cormyr who weren’t on the Dragon Throne, Esparin was secretly supported by some of those noble families to weaken the Obarskyrs (in hopes that they could be supplanted on the throne) and by wealthy merchants of Marsember who hoped to win independence for Marsember from a Cormyr weakened and embroiled in a war with Esparin.
“Re. the heraldry of Esparin with the Unicorn - made up as new or derived from a rebel family that broke from Cormyr? Or does the unicorn and trees have any link with the Hullack forest and/or Hullack himself? I ask because of the timeframe:
- From Pages from the Mages VI we learn that Hullack led the druids of the Wyvernwater 200 years ago (say 1100DR or so) about the same time Esparin was in force? We also know that the druids were slain by beholders who were served by gargoyles, bugbears, and quicklings. The eye tyrants sought to establish a realm in the area.
- Futhermore the 'Men in Green' used the Crystum of Tranquility to slay the Beholder King sometime after 1112DR when they recived the Crystrum from Shalgreth of the Wings (a member of the Hullack Circle given the preceding lore in the 2E Prayers from the Faithful writeup?)
Three pieces of Realmslore within a similar timeframe and similar location - just wondering if there is a connection between Esparin and Hullack?”
The only real connection (though local tales speak darkly of many more) is that one (the beholders) sought to take advantage of the distraction afforded by another (Esparin) in their battles with Cormyr.
The rise of the beholders certainly pushed more of the elves out of the Hullack and east the mountains, right out of what became Cormyr. Hullack himself, and the druids, were on friendly-to-neutral terms with Esparin because the Esparrin were wise enough not to make foes of them, whereas Hullack’s relationship with expanding Cormyr was NOT friendly.
Hullack and the Esparrin were never, so far as is known by later loremasters, battle-allies.
The unicorn-and-trees heraldry of Esparin is related to the trees of the Hullack and King’s Forest, and the wilderlands north of both and between both (which were then largely uncleared for farming and still heavily wooded). Unicorns were legendarily numerous in those now-vanished “in between” forests, and one of the noble families of Cormyr that secretly supported Esparin, House Ulmair, used the unicorn as its badge and the chief charge of its blazon.
However, two prominent families of Esparin, the Darlreths and the Melmanes, also had unicorn badges and blazons.
(The Ulmairs are extinct as a noble house of Cormyr, but have numerous descendants in Westgate, and the Darlreths and Melmanes are widely believed to have been exterminated in Palaghard’s conquest of Esparin, but in fact numerous descendants survive scattered across Sembia.)
I hope these answers are helpful. I hope to say much more about Esparin eventually, just as I hope to reveal the full lineage of Cormyr some day . . . but I’ve got an unfinished novel on my plate, first! (And a Spin A Yarn not yet done, second! And . . . )
Heh. So saith Ed, creator of the Realms and its busy, busy handyman, makeover co-ordinator, and tour guide.
love,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 08 May 2010 22:38:59 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 22:49:27
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YES! More Esparin lore, please Ed! please, please please! (A few monarchs in a row, a fistful of the most prominent families [how did they get classified or recognized as noble? Did anyone outside their borders ever really treat them as noble?], royal regalia if any, legends/prophecies/sayings? Prominent faiths? ANYTHING?)
Thanks in advance!
Yes, I'll wait, I know your platter is more than full, and not just from six years of lore queries asked here...
BB |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 23:53:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi, Damian! I sent your questions off to Ed, and received back a lightning-swift response (he’s just back from a funeral, and it seems he sat right down to answer them). So here we go . . .
WOW WOW WOW
More than I hoped for and with such alacrity - many many thanks Ed and THO for your generosity.
If it wasn't so late here I am sure I would have more to say and more questions to ask, but it seems Blueblade has summed it up quite well
Best wishes
Damian
ps sorry to hear about the loss of a friend; good friends are treasured as bright flames to light our lives |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 09 May 2010 00:01:18 |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 02:36:51
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| Hello again. I just thought of a question that might be a little odd, but I hope is one that has an interesting story behind it and recalls fond memories for Mr.Greenwood and yourself, Lady THO. Would it be all right if I asked what Mr. Greenwood's original inspiration was for the city of Myth Drannor, and how he came up with the name? Thank you for your time, and I wish you all of my best. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2010)
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