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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 19:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
Is there any canon description as to how these characters have survived so long? Or is it just hand waved?
Most is handwaved and lichdom is usualy the cause of their survival. If there is a description it is summarized as "use of magical potions and wish spells". |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 20:10:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Of course, gaining Chosen status is often an instant road to immortality too. Although if you sign up with some deranged god like Lolth, Cyric, or Shar, it may not be the kind of glorious immortality that Elminster or the Seven Sisters have enjoyed.
Actually, we only know that to be true for Mystra's Chosen. Other Chosen may or may not be immortal.
Hmm, I suppose you're right. I had assumed immortality for Malik (Cyric's Chosen) because he is still alive after the Spellplague, and Cadderly (Deneir's Chosen) had his youth instantly restored after he became an old man completing the Spirit Soaring.
And then you have other deities granting their followers longer lives in unique ways.
1) Shar made Rivalen a shade, and he was about 2,000 years old with no signs of slowing down.
2) Lolth ate Danifae and made her one of the goddess's 8 aspects.
3) Mask made Kesson Rel immortal by granting him a sliver of divinity as a Chosen, which is the same thing Mystra does with her Chosen (and his story mirrors Sammaster's a lot).
4) Mask made Erevis Cale and Drasek Riven shades, who could presumably live just as long as Rivalen.
5) Bane raised Fzoul Chembryl up to be an exarch.
6) Gruumsh raised Obould up to be an exarch.
So while there are not rules making them technically immortal, most Chosen seem to be in practice. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 22:42:16
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| this is a very useful thread as many of these beings qualify as Undying Warlock Patron. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 23:39:30
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| Thanks everyone for the information. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 09:55:05
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[/quote]
Hmm, I suppose you're right. I had assumed immortality for Malik (Cyric's Chosen) because he is still alive after the Spellplague, and Cadderly (Deneir's Chosen) had his youth instantly restored after he became an old man completing the Spirit Soaring.
And then you have other deities granting their followers longer lives in unique ways.
1) Shar made Rivalen a shade, and he was about 2,000 years old with no signs of slowing down.
2) Lolth ate Danifae and made her one of the goddess's 8 aspects.
3) Mask made Kesson Rel immortal by granting him a sliver of divinity as a Chosen, which is the same thing Mystra does with her Chosen (and his story mirrors Sammaster's a lot).
4) Mask made Erevis Cale and Drasek Riven shades, who could presumably live just as long as Rivalen.
5) Bane raised Fzoul Chembryl up to be an exarch.
6) Gruumsh raised Obould up to be an exarch.
So while there are not rules making them technically immortal, most Chosen seem to be in practice.
[/quote]
I think that Kesson Rel was more than chosen, he was in fact demigod. So that means DR of atleast 1. As other chosen are not even DR 0.
Mask did not make Erevis or Rivalen a shade. Rivalen got his affiliation with shadow from Kessons divine shard and Mask only facilitated Erevis Cales becoming a shade.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 17:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Madpig
Hmm, I suppose you're right. I had assumed immortality for Malik (Cyric's Chosen) because he is still alive after the Spellplague, and Cadderly (Deneir's Chosen) had his youth instantly restored after he became an old man completing the Spirit Soaring.
And then you have other deities granting their followers longer lives in unique ways.
1) Shar made Rivalen a shade, and he was about 2,000 years old with no signs of slowing down.
2) Lolth ate Danifae and made her one of the goddess's 8 aspects.
3) Mask made Kesson Rel immortal by granting him a sliver of divinity as a Chosen, which is the same thing Mystra does with her Chosen (and his story mirrors Sammaster's a lot).
4) Mask made Erevis Cale and Drasek Riven shades, who could presumably live just as long as Rivalen.
5) Bane raised Fzoul Chembryl up to be an exarch.
6) Gruumsh raised Obould up to be an exarch.
So while there are not rules making them technically immortal, most Chosen seem to be in practice.
[/quote]
I think that Kesson Rel was more than chosen, he was in fact demigod. So that means DR of atleast 1. As other chosen are not even DR 0.
Mask did not make Erevis or Rivalen a shade. Rivalen got his affiliation with shadow from Kessons divine shard and Mask only facilitated Erevis Cales becoming a shade.
[/quote]
I think you're right about Cale, because my memory of how he originally became a shade is fuzzy. But Riven and Rivalen were shades long before they met Kesson Rel. Shar made Rivalen a shade, and I don't recall the details of how Riven was made one.
Kesson Rel was indeed a demigod, but that's because of Mask. He was Mask's First of Five (his original Chosen), and Mask was more trusting with how much power he gave him. Of course, he didn't anticipate Kesson turning on him and worshipping Shar instead.
Chosen can vary significantly in the amount of power they are given by their gods. We have uber powerful chosen like Elminster, Fzoul, Cadderly, Shurrupak, etc. Even Liriel Baenre destroyed a small army when she was temporarily Lolth's Chosen. That Chosen of Lathander in the Sundering books was also crazy powerful.
But then we have lower tier Chosen like Malik, Riven, and Drizzt, who are all dangerous, but not nearly as powerful as the higher tier Chosen. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 18:08:18
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From my point of view once you get part of diefic power you are immortal (at last from aging) and it include chosen status. Off course that it can be changed by your patron diety at moment of creation - purposefuly leaving him mortal.
I would like to ask you about your take on longevity potions. How do they work in your realms? Try to avoid lots of game statistics and focus on principle. My players are trying to find some knowledge about this subject so I could use some inspiration. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 03:59:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I would like to ask you about your take on longevity potions. How do they work in your realms? Try to avoid lots of game statistics and focus on principle. My players are trying to find some knowledge about this subject so I could use some inspiration.
Longevity potions are an interesting part of the D&D world. As many observers have commented over the years, if you make one, why wouldn't you drink it ASAP? In my view, longevity potions should be ultra-rare, very hard to make (in terms of time and resources) and should always have a story attached to them - in other words, they were made for a purpose. If discovered as "treasure" I would have the longevity potion be a remnant of a cache associated with a lost kingdom, monarch or important/notorious individual - they should have a story associated with them and be an adventure lead-in/tie-in just by existing.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 13:52:10
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I would like to ask you about your take on longevity potions. How do they work in your realms? Try to avoid lots of game statistics and focus on principle. My players are trying to find some knowledge about this subject so I could use some inspiration.
Longevity potions are an interesting part of the D&D world. As many observers have commented over the years, if you make one, why wouldn't you drink it ASAP? In my view, longevity potions should be ultra-rare, very hard to make (in terms of time and resources) and should always have a story attached to them - in other words, they were made for a purpose. If discovered as "treasure" I would have the longevity potion be a remnant of a cache associated with a lost kingdom, monarch or important/notorious individual - they should have a story associated with them and be an adventure lead-in/tie-in just by existing.
-- George Krashos
The answer to this is if you having creatures that can unnaturally age you in the world. Thus, let us suppose we have a wizard who has used several potions to make himself be age 24, and the next potion would make him appear to be say 14. He doesn't want to be 14, but he has the stuff to make another potion handy and he doesn't want it to spoil. So, he makes the potion in preparation for some creature aging him 30 years... or for himself aging into his mid 30's.
Granted, this would be a very rare situation, but it would explain the occasional potion to be found. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 14:10:11
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I would like to ask you about your take on longevity potions. How do they work in your realms? Try to avoid lots of game statistics and focus on principle. My players are trying to find some knowledge about this subject so I could use some inspiration.
Longevity potions are an interesting part of the D&D world. As many observers have commented over the years, if you make one, why wouldn't you drink it ASAP? In my view, longevity potions should be ultra-rare, very hard to make (in terms of time and resources) and should always have a story attached to them - in other words, they were made for a purpose. If discovered as "treasure" I would have the longevity potion be a remnant of a cache associated with a lost kingdom, monarch or important/notorious individual - they should have a story associated with them and be an adventure lead-in/tie-in just by existing.
-- George Krashos
I completely agree. Aside from your occasional nutjob, nobody dreams of lichdom, or servitude to horrors of the Abyss, Nine Hells, or Far Realm. People tend to do it because of the power they receive, immortality (or at least extended life) usually being among the most prized rewards.
If wizards could simply create potions of longevity with moderate difficulty, there would probably only be a handful of liches (whackos like Sammaster, for instance). If they were commonplace enough that adventurers could rely on finding them, then seeking other routes to extended life would be rare indeed. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 15:32:48
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| remember, previously potions of longevity were unreliable as well. Sometimes they canceled the effects of previous potions and preternaturally aged people. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 18:36:05
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Pathfinder's Golarion setting has an interesting take on Longevity Potions.
An Alchemist in the nation of Thuvia long ago developed The Sun Orchid Elixir, which is essentially a potion of Longevity. The Alchemist effectively helped create this nation by drawing together several local city states to help protect his secret in exchange for the wealth it brings them.
As the Elixir requires the incredibly rare Sun Orchid which only grows in this one desert region, only a small amount can be created each year. Once a year the City States hold an auction where buyers from around the world gather to bid for a vial of the precious elixir. Of course others also gather each year to attempt to steal the elixir, kill their competition, rig the auction, or anything else they can dream of to make sure that they or those they represent acquire the Elixir. Theft or discovery of the alchemical process of creating the Elixir is also a highly sought prize. The powers that be in Thuvia will do whatever is necessary to ensure that the secret of the Elixir remains their secret. The Original creator (Kept alive via the Elixir of course) is one of the very few who know that secret process.
I think this is a good indicator of how rare such a potion should be, and how dangerous! Should a group of adventurers come across a single vial, they could garner attention from very dangerous corners. Do they try to sell it and become fabulously wealthy, or do they get rid of it before they fall victim to those who seek it? Even if they get rid of it quickly, rumors of their possession of the item may circulate and cause trouble for them. If having one vial is this dangerous, imagine how dangerous it could be if the party allows it be widely known that they are seeking the process to create one!
When looked at this way, a single Potion of Longevity becomes a campaign changing artifact! The process of creating one could encompass en entire campaign in itself!
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Garydee
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 22:55:21
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| Seems like the 5e version of Clone pretty much gives immortality. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 00:40:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Garydee
Seems like the 5e version of Clone pretty much gives immortality.
So it does.... damn, but that's cheesy. Granted its less secure than going lich, because you have to prepare the body for 120 days, so if you die, transfer to the clone, then die again before prepping a new body... you're screwed. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 02:34:57
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Didn't Halaster find or create powerful scrolls that were a reward to PCs in the adventure Stardock? One of the four scrolls returned their characters back to their prime (starting age as beginning PCs) without losing levels or experience. It's not technically immortality, but neither were potions of longevity. IIRC, potions of longevity (as their powers were originally described) added years to a characters maximum age, when natural death would occur. They didn't restore youth, at least originally.
However, that concept changed over how potions of longevity worked at the time Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade came out. It would be more spectacular for a character to fail to successfully consume a potion of longevity and rapidly age like the Nazi collaborator in the movie. |
- Ryan |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 04:35:21
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The Undying Patron Warlock has a feature that allows the character to age 1 year for every 10 lived, makes the character immune to magical aging, doesn't need to eat, breath, drink, or sleep. Later the character gets an healing ability once per short or long rest to reattach limbs and heal 1d8 +level hps.
One way to true immortality, is the True Polymorph spell, just turn yourself in a creature that never ages, like an Angel. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 05:01:58
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| One of the Hooks I wrote back in the day played with the eternal youth trope... The Hook focused on a potion that restored lost youth, sold by a shady guy. The hook was that while it did initially restore this woman's youth in one go, she later realized she was aging in reverse, and at an accelerated rate -- so she was continuing to get younger, and if the PCs couldn't do something about it, she would revert to childhood, then infancy, and then who knows what would happen. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 05:41:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The Undying Patron Warlock has a feature that allows the character to age 1 year for every 10 lived, makes the character immune to magical aging, doesn't need to eat, breath, drink, or sleep. Later the character gets an healing ability once per short or long rest to reattach limbs and heal 1d8 +level hps.
One way to true immortality, is the True Polymorph spell, just turn yourself in a creature that never ages, like an Angel.
Nice, that would give a human just about the life span of an elf (though they'd still look older at 500 or 600). And an elven warlock would just have a gay old time with this feat. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 05:46:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
Pathfinder's Golarion setting has an interesting take on Longevity Potions.
An Alchemist in the nation of Thuvia long ago developed The Sun Orchid Elixir, which is essentially a potion of Longevity. The Alchemist effectively helped create this nation by drawing together several local city states to help protect his secret in exchange for the wealth it brings them.
As the Elixir requires the incredibly rare Sun Orchid which only grows in this one desert region, only a small amount can be created each year. Once a year the City States hold an auction where buyers from around the world gather to bid for a vial of the precious elixir. Of course others also gather each year to attempt to steal the elixir, kill their competition, rig the auction, or anything else they can dream of to make sure that they or those they represent acquire the Elixir. Theft or discovery of the alchemical process of creating the Elixir is also a highly sought prize. The powers that be in Thuvia will do whatever is necessary to ensure that the secret of the Elixir remains their secret. The Original creator (Kept alive via the Elixir of course) is one of the very few who know that secret process.
I think this is a good indicator of how rare such a potion should be, and how dangerous! Should a group of adventurers come across a single vial, they could garner attention from very dangerous corners. Do they try to sell it and become fabulously wealthy, or do they get rid of it before they fall victim to those who seek it? Even if they get rid of it quickly, rumors of their possession of the item may circulate and cause trouble for them. If having one vial is this dangerous, imagine how dangerous it could be if the party allows it be widely known that they are seeking the process to create one!
When looked at this way, a single Potion of Longevity becomes a campaign changing artifact! The process of creating one could encompass en entire campaign in itself!
Indeed. You just made me think of spellfire in the novels about Shandril. It sounds great on the surface to possess rare and valuable stuff, until you realize just how many people want what you have, and how far they will go to take it from you. I sure wouldn't want Zhents, Shades, Thayans, liches, demon cultists, and who knows what else hunting me across Faerun. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 09:55:52
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So we have these so far:
-AD&D old longevity potion (stops aging , Sun Orchid Elixir - potent and dangerous)
-Potion of long life (prolongs an age category)
-Potion of reversion (gives you back your youth (Halaster's scroll), risk of permanently reversing the process)
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I completely agree. Aside from your occasional nutjob, nobody dreams of lichdom, or servitude to horrors of the Abyss, Nine Hells, or Far Realm. People tend to do it because of the power they receive, immortality (or at least extended life) usually being among the most prized rewards.
If wizards could simply create potions of longevity with moderate difficulty, there would probably only be a handful of liches (whackos like Sammaster, for instance). If they were commonplace enough that adventurers could rely on finding them, then seeking other routes to extended life would be rare indeed.
I disagree Lichdom has multiple revards that are prized by wizards - it not only stops your aging process (sort of) but also make you an insurance if killed (you reform your body next to phylactery few days later), you do not have to eat, drink, sleep and breathe which lets you concentrate more time to everything, you cannot become exhausted, mindaffected, drained, become ill, ... Also it helps in planar research as you do not need to worry about some of planar traits anymore (and picking up resistance to elements is easy for those wizards).
My take on those potions is that there is no proven recepies so you have to make your own or buy some and hope it will do as promised. So far PC have found that you cannot get there by mundane alchemy and you have to rely on magical substances (possibly like blood of long living creatures - that is longer living than recipient) and about the risk of indulging into planar bonds as it changes your towards planar ethos. There will surely be some "not so good" products on market like necromantic potion that only temporarily halts aging or even make you younger but it will all came back with a hit in the end, Illusory parfumes, ointments of transformation. True longevity potions are absolutely rare, unique, dangerous to posses if founded about and very expensive. |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2019 : 04:41:56
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| In Unclean, Malark Springhill drank a potion of eternal youth that made him extremely long lived. He was older than Thay itself, remembering when a group of wizards from Mulmaster was rebelling against the nation, those wizards becoming the infamous Red Wizards of Thay. |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2019 : 05:34:01
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Lichdoom is the most common, I guess. Or usage of special magic. Elminster is like 1000 years old or something. Is this explained somewhere? And Aoth Fezim became ageless thanks to his spellscar. Or use the clone spell a la Manshoon.
Also, abuse those potions of youth. Every NPC who survived the 100 time jump did it thanks to those. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 18 Dec 2019 05:34:45 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2019 : 18:14:55
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An idea I had for an NPC was someone who uses a poorly-worded wish for eternal youth... Because he didn't word it properly, he wound up permanently 10 years old -- the "eternal" part of the request means that he's locked to that physical age, and nothing at all can cause him to age further.
I've not done anything with this NPC, beyond come up with this idea... I've no idea what to do with him, so I've not developed the idea further. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2019 : 20:01:00
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| In a world with halflings and gnomes, would that actually be such a big problem? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2019 : 22:47:54
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
In a world with halflings and gnomes, would that actually be such a big problem?
For an adult to be forever trapped in the body of a child, yes. Obviously, the unaging aspect would have its benefits, but being a child forever is going to have a lot of downsides. Even if you ignore certain aspects of the physical immaturity, there's still the fact that they're going to be a kid trying to live in an adult world -- and a lot of adults have a tendency to not give kids the same respect they'd give other adults. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2019 : 23:23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
In Unclean, Malark Springhill drank a potion of eternal youth that made him extremely long lived. He was older than Thay itself, remembering when a group of wizards from Mulmaster was rebelling against the nation, those wizards becoming the infamous Red Wizards of Thay.
Mulmaster? I don't recall that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2019 : 23:49:13
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| I’m sure they meant Mulhorand. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2019 : 23:49:21
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| I think he might be confusing Mulmaster with Mulhorand. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2019 : 23:54:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
From my point of view once you get part of diefic power you are immortal (at last from aging) and it include chosen status. Off course that it can be changed by your patron diety at moment of creation - purposefuly leaving him mortal.
I would like to ask you about your take on longevity potions. How do they work in your realms? Try to avoid lots of game statistics and focus on principle. My players are trying to find some knowledge about this subject so I could use some inspiration.
Shar may have shared how to turn a human into a Shade, but its the Shadovar who made thier Princes and other important beings into Shades (and other folks into Shadar Kai, which makes the fact that Shadar Kai are now elves). |
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Ways to Immortality and long life
