| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2009 : 16:08:44
|
Hope someone could help out with a few advices concerning my adventure in Halruaa.
1. How far can Halruaan flying ships travel? Do they go to other continents, even other planets, the Moon? Do they have any competition?
2. What would happen with the Mystra's and Azuth's plane after their death, and Savras gone missing?
3. Every edition has a different arrangement of the planes, what is the most appropriate for the Forgotten Realms, the Great Wheel, the World Tree, the Great Axis, or a combination of sort of all of them. I'm in the middle in 1378 DR.
|
z455t |
Edited by - Kno on 26 Oct 2009 16:10:13
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2009 : 17:03:16
|
1. A standard Halruaan skyship could reach any place in the Realms, pretty much. There are limits to how high they can fly, though. I don't think these limits have been defined, but a standard skyship won't be visiting Selūne or Anadia any time soon.
That said, if one has a spelljamming helm mounted on it (and in canon, at least one does), then the altitude restriction goes out the window, and they could easily visit some of the other planets in Realmspace.
2. Planescape lore says that if a deity dies, their divine realm basically dissolves.
3. For a long time, the Realms was part of the Great Wheel. 3E chucked that out the window, without worrying about the fact that this invalidated some prior lore. And then in 4E, the planar setup got changed around even further... My advice is to stick with the Great Wheel, since the greater balance of Realmslore fits into that framework. Plus, going with the Great Wheel means you can use any and all Planescape lore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Oct 2009 17:04:33 |
 |
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2009 : 19:43:08
|
| You can find a very basic description of the planets in Realmspace HERE. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2009 : 23:53:46
|
1. Rules for Halruaan Skyships were detailed in the old FR16 The Shining South tome -- pg. 22. The Skyships were also covered in the 3e Shining South tome -- pg. 56, and briefly under the 'Defense and Warcraft' section on pg. 130. A thorough reading should help you to determine how they operate.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That said, if one has a spelljamming helm mounted on it (and in canon, at least one does), then the altitude restriction goes out the window, and they could easily visit some of the other planets in Realmspace.
One of the more recent mentions was made by Eric Boyd, in the write-up for Kethid of Serpent Kingdoms. Several Halruaan Skyships are said to be capable of "sailing amongst the stars." Eric told me this was another "vague" reference to SJing in 3e FR.
2. And just to expand a little on Wooly's response above... For a well-detailed treatment of what happens when deities die and how they end up in the Astral, see both the original Manual of the Planes and the 2e PLANESCAPE supplement Guide to the Astral Plane.
Unfortunately, we had little true lore on this planar aspect in 3e. However, since we didn't learn otherwise, I think it's fair enough to assume that for the most part, such an aspect still had some place in the 3e/4e FR cosmology as well.
3. For a worthwhile account of the changes to cosmologies made between editions of FR, I'd suggest you read through my entry in the Candlekeep Code of Conduct -- section D.1 The Forgotten Realms Cosmology (2ed. To 3ed.). I'll be adding a section on the changes wrought by the Spellplague very soon.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 10:27:44
|
2. Usually it takes years for such plane to fall apart, e.g. what happened with Bhaal's Throne of Blood or Untheric Zigguraxus, meanwhile until it dissolves into the Ethereal the place is ideal for scavengers, e.g. nathri (think they're in Planescape Monstrous Compendium III).
3. I agree that older edition Great Wheel sources would be the most suitable, some people don't like ''the alignment symmetry'' tough.
Personally there were a few great sources for the planes after Planescape and it would be too wasteful not to include them. My planes are a mixture of parts that I like from Planescape, Spelljammer, Beyond Countless Doorways, Amber, Earwa, Golarion's Great Beyond, Faeries, even the Great Tree had a few good ideas, 4e, only thing I liked is when they merged the elemental planes. So basically all these sources organized in a new structure. |
Edited by - Quale on 27 Oct 2009 10:46:23 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 13:44:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
*snip*
I'll be adding a section on the changes wrought by the Spellplague very soon.
Quick question re: translation from Sage-speak:
Does "very soon" mean sometime this decade, or, as we're almost at the end of it, does it run generally longer than that?
Well, scribe D-brane came up with this interpretation in Ed's '09 scroll:-
quote:
Originally posted by D-brane
Sage Reckoning: An archaic dating system used by the monks and scribes of Candlekeep to record the amount of time that has passed since the Sage of Perth's last completed project for the great library.
Will that do?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 14:52:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Personally there were a few great sources for the planes after Planescape and it would be too wasteful not to include them. My planes are a mixture of parts that I like from Planescape, Spelljammer, Beyond Countless Doorways, Amber, Earwa, Golarion's Great Beyond, Faeries, even the Great Tree had a few good ideas, 4e, only thing I liked is when they merged the elemental planes. So basically all these sources organized in a new structure.
I'm beginning to really get into Planescape... I'm reading thru the source material now, alternating each boxed set/supplement with reading one from Al-Qadim.
It's known that I'm a huge Spelljammer fan -- that's the source of my username!
I reviewed Beyond Countless Doorways in this thread: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12158
I really liked Faeries (I recommend it as frequently as I can!) and Great Beyond had some great stuff, too. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 15:59:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm beginning to really get into Planescape... I'm reading thru the source material now, alternating each boxed set/supplement with reading one from Al-Qadim.
Indeed. There's a reason for why PLANESCAPE still occupies the place of "my second favourite setting." Even after all the years since its been published, I still get a thrill each and every time I open a PS tome or boxed set, because I know I'll find something that I hadn't noticed during a previous read. The depth and overall complexity of the setting is truly amazing.
quote:
It's known that I'm a huge Spelljammer fan...
Ditto. If there's a spelljamming-based discussion here at Candlekeep, you can be sure I'm in it. Plus, I've always got the 'Beyond the Moons' URL handy because I know its a reference that many initiate SJ-fans will find useful.
quote:
I really liked Faeries (I recommend it as frequently as I can!)
As do I. in fact, I actually bought two copies of Faeries -- one for home and one for work. I really do love reading this book, and it never fails to provide some new tidbit of curious fey lore that I can drop into one of my campaigns.
quote:
... and Great Beyond had some great stuff, too.
I'm still working my way through this, but its obvious, even at this early stage, just how much love has gone into crafting this wondrous cosmological tome. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 27 Oct 2009 16:00:33 |
|
|
|
Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 20:01:29
|
Thanks, been a great help. Tears of Selune are the most interesting on that site. The other planets, not that exciting, halflings and umber hulks on Anadia!?
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
1. Rules for Halruaan Skyships were detailed in the old FR16 The Shining South tome -- pg. 22. The Skyships were also covered in the 3e Shining South tome -- pg. 56, and briefly under the 'Defense and Warcraft' section on pg. 130. A thorough reading should help you to determine how they operate.
I have FR16, just to clarify, the maximum height is 3600 ft., how is that measured? from the ground, relatively or according to the sea-level. If the last then no ordinary skyships would be able to reach Mt. Talath? 
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
3. ...
Which one of these books has information on the planes that are like Mystra's, and-or about to die out?
Feel free to explain how to include diverse sources that appear at odds, and the new structure. In every book Shar's or Cyric's domain is different, why isn't she now in Shadowfell. |
z455t |
|
|
|
Fizilbert
Learned Scribe
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 22:03:13
|
| I would have to assume it would be 3600ft from sea level, but I have nothing to base that on other then the fact I would assume sea level is the "standard" in which to base heights. |
Fiz
Level 10 Vice-president
World of Elethril |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 23:57:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I have FR16, just to clarify, the maximum height is 3600 ft., how is that measured? from the ground, relatively or according to the sea-level.
In this instance, I'd say whatever works for your campaign.
quote:
If the last then no ordinary skyships would be able to reach Mt. Talath?
I'd imagine the wizards of Halruaa were aware of that. Thus, the great cavern complex of Mt. Talath probably has at least one point of entry [existing within the limits of a skyship's service ceiling] for skyships should it be required.
quote:
Which one of these books has information on the planes that are like Mystra's, and-or about to die out?
PLANESCAPE sources, mostly. And 3e's Player's Guide to Faerūn. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 05:11:30
|
Actually, Dweomerheart exploded when Mystra was killed and the Weave collapsed. The explosion knocked the planes around something fierce, and several planes without a greater god to stabilize/protect them were destroyed in the shockwave or by the after effects of the Spellplague.
The cosmos is actually the same cosmos, although it looks a little different in the aftermath. That is to say it wasn't retconned, but rather they used an in-game explanation to account for the changes. The 4e FR planes have seen some gods relocate, some names have been changed in the intervening century, but it is still the Great Tree, if a post-apocalyptic, shattered tree.
Major changes involve the elemental planes getting stirred up together into the Elemental Chaos, the Abyss falling out of the Astral Sea down into the Elemental Chaos. Dragon Eyrie, Bloodrift, Clangor, Dweomerheart, Fated Depths, Fury's Heart, Golden Hills, Hammergrim, Heliopolis, Jotunheim and Yggdrasil, the Celestial Tree are all destroyed. House of the Triad reverts to the name of Celestia, House of Nature comes to be known as the Deep Wilds, Bane consolidates his rule over the Barrens of Doom and Despair and renames it Banehold. Lathander's domain was split off from the House of Nature to become Amaunator's Domain of Eternal Sun. Deep Caverns renamed to Dismal Caverns. And Shar relocated her domain in the Shadowfell to the Astral Plane, forming the Towers of Night.
It should also be mentioned that Azuth briefly survived the destruction of Dweomerheart but was cast into the Nine Hells, where he was hauled before the throne of Asmodeus and was devoured, precipitating Asmodeus's transformation into a greater god.
A couple of things I am slightly unclear about. Jotunheim may not have been destroyed so much as shattered and bits and pieces may have been hauled by the Giant gods down into the Elemental Chaos, or perhaps they just rebuilt their realms from whole cloth down in the Elemental Chaos. Heliopolis may or may not have been destroyed, it is possible it is fading. The Mulhorand deities may have relocated to Abeir's cosmology, or if Abeir shares the same cosmology as Toril, Heliopolis may still be floating around, although I suppose it could be sealed on the Torilian side and conceivably not accessible from Toril's side of the cosmology (or invisible, or the hyperlinks may be broken, whatever analogy is applicable).
The channeled nature of the Astral has been broken. And the Astral Plane is now seen as more of a Sea. Nautical metaphors are currently en vogue to describe the Astral--rather than an arboreal paradigm as it was envisaged in previous centuries--but it is essentially the same place. Chalk it up to collective perception and belief changing over time to explain some of the minor set dressing changes, in combination with the major changes effected by the Spellplague itself.
The changes in the cosmology from 3e to 4e can be explained by the in-game Spellplague event. My personal explanation for the change from the Great Wheel cosmology is that Greyhawk's Great Wheel cosmology is like MySpace, or Facebook. Gods from all over the multi-verse, which includes multiple cosmologies, maintain links between their planes and the Wheel. Thus The Fugue Plane has a link to the Glooms of Hades in the Great Wheel. Brighwater and Arvandor have links to the Plane of Olympus. Dwarfhome and the House of the Triad (now Celestia) have links to the Great Wheel's Mount Celestia, etc. Therefore it is possible, even quite easy to travel around Toril's cosmology as described in 4e (or 3e) but then leave through a portal or link to the Great Wheel and travel around the Wheel to reenter Toril's cosmology from a different link or portal between the two.
Toril's deities and divine servants probably even found this convenient or preferable to establish, maintain and use these Great Wheel links to circumvent the channeled Astral Plane that prevented a lot of movement between planes without first passing through Toril. It also probably allowed many of these gods to expand their worshiper base into other spheres by having a presence in the Great Wheel, which gave these gods increased power and helped ensure their continuation should their worship on Toril become impaired through RSE's, fading memories, heretical ideas, cultural upheavals and/or mass deaths.
I think this idea allows descriptions from 2e sources to comport with the 3e and 4e versions of Toril's cosmos. Thus characters could wander from Brightwater across Olympus over to Arvandor, even though those two planes/domains are/were not connected over on the Toril side. The links might not actually have been portals but rather soft borders so that one could make the transition without noticing that one had crossed over into another cosmology. There is precedence for soft borders linking planes.
That's my explanation, anyway. Other posters may have different theories. But with a little finesse, I think it possible to explain how the cosmology is actually consistent across all editions. |
|
|
|
Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 07:32:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The changes in the cosmology from 3e to 4e can be explained by the in-game Spellplague event. My personal explanation for the change from the Great Wheel cosmology is that Greyhawk's Great Wheel cosmology is like MySpace, or Facebook. Gods from all over the multi-verse, which includes multiple cosmologies, maintain links between their planes and the Wheel. Thus The Fugue Plane has a link to the Glooms of Hades in the Great Wheel. Brighwater and Arvandor have links to the Plane of Olympus. Dwarfhome and the House of the Triad (now Celestia) have links to the Great Wheel's Mount Celestia, etc. Therefore it is possible, even quite easy to travel around Toril's cosmology as described in 4e (or 3e) but then leave through a portal or link to the Great Wheel and travel around the Wheel to reenter Toril's cosmology from a different link or portal between the two.
Toril's deities and divine servants probably even found this convenient or preferable to establish, maintain and use these Great Wheel links to circumvent the channeled Astral Plane that prevented a lot of movement between planes without first passing through Toril. It also probably allowed many of these gods to expand their worshiper base into other spheres by having a presence in the Great Wheel, which gave these gods increased power and helped ensure their continuation should their worship on Toril become impaired through RSE's, fading memories, heretical ideas, cultural upheavals and/or mass deaths.
I think this idea allows descriptions from 2e sources to comport with the 3e and 4e versions of Toril's cosmos. Thus characters could wander from Brightwater across Olympus over to Arvandor, even though those two planes/domains are/were not connected over on the Toril side. The links might not actually have been portals but rather soft borders so that one could make the transition without noticing that one had crossed over into another cosmology. There is precedence for soft borders linking planes.
I must say that that is definitely a great way of explaining it -- definitely something I'll steal should the need ever arise. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
|
|
|
Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 08:12:38
|
| Thanks again. It says that the skyships can only travel through the narrow passes of the Wall of Halruaa, I decided that's it's 3600' from the ground below. The ship will levitate slowly through the canyons to Talath. Makes me think about Tusken Raiders. |
z455t |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 09:12:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm beginning to really get into Planescape... I'm reading thru the source material now, alternating each boxed set/supplement with reading one from Al-Qadim.
It's known that I'm a huge Spelljammer fan -- that's the source of my username!
I reviewed Beyond Countless Doorways in this thread: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12158
I really liked Faeries (I recommend it as frequently as I can!) and Great Beyond had some great stuff, too.
Yea, for me it's the opposite, just recently got into Spelljammer and parts of it really enriched the planar-stuff. I remember that thread very well, one of my favourites from Beyond Countless Doorways were the sidebars with the worlds. Al-Qadim is also wonderful, tough I did some heavy necromancy there and moved a few FR lands near.
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Which one of these books has information on the planes that are like Mystra's, and-or about to die out?
Beside PGtF, I think On Hallowed Ground briefly describes Dweomerheart, and Planes of Law Azuth. Supposedly the new novel Crystal Mountain happens in Dweomerheart.
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Feel free to explain how to include diverse sources that appear at odds, and the new structure. In every book Shar's or Cyric's domain is different, why isn't she now in Shadowfell.
4e staff wanted all gods in the Astral, I guess.
One option is to make an overreaching cosmology. My theory is, and I don't particularly care about canon consistency, that the planes are a mystery. The Tree/Wheel/whatever/check this http://www.mimir.net/mapinfinity/index.html are interpretations or understandings of a civilization or a school of thought.
For example our campaigns lately were based on Imaskar (with heavy modifications, called Imauyari, I change all the names, cause players like to read, Imayauri language is like proto-indoeuropean), so I created a new structure for them as they were the most renowned planewalkers. In short, it is still based on PS Rule of Three.
Three inner planes, realities of matter:
Derrwom, the World Tree (realm of fey, hags and animistic spirits, includes parts of Arborea, Beastlands, Dream/Nightmare-lands, Altxeringa, Wood etc.)
Scyrnel, the Elemental Core (includes the Ethereal and most of elemental planes, Fury's Heart, realm of alchemy and psionics, giants and titans, human immortals, gods and their demiplanes)
Serphala, the Cosmic Helix (somewhat like Dragon Eyrie, realms of serpents, reptiles, avians and batrachi, Smaragd, Eastern Realms religions ...)
Nine outer planes, where individual's belief matters more:
Inphedem (basically Baator, somewhat changed and rearranged)
Pleroma (Seven Aeons, archons, logoi, not that nice more gnostic, plus rogue Arcadian layers)
Dwolanx (Mechanus, the Outlands, rilmani, modrons, axiomites, humanoid helions all together)
Hawoek (realm of conflict and obliteration, invades all realities, merged aspects of the Blood Rift, Abyss, Acheron, Pandemonium, Ysgard, Warrior's Rest, Golarion's Abaddon, and its opposite Carcerian ''pockets'')
Kerweid (also known as Playlife, creative place, where is the mystical source of Phoenix-energy, includes the Gates of the Moon, parts of Golarion's Elysium and Maelstrom, etc. many other sites)
Zlum (place of pure evil and apathy, parts of the Gray Waste, Gehenna and Barrens of Doom and Despair)
Looep (mix some of Great Wheel's Elysium, Golarion's Nirvana, and a bit of Bytopia)
Puerr (plane of anomalies, wonder, mysteries, magic and arcana)
The Eternity of Aum (like the Astral plane, plane of pure thought, Silvery Void, except there is the real ''black'' void there or Deep Shadow)
B'ymeih (considered by some the 13th plane, Lovecraftian, named after the city the Bleak Cabal runs on its ''edge'') |
Edited by - Quale on 28 Oct 2009 17:33:47 |
|
|
|
Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2009 : 08:19:40
|
| I ordered the books I could find. Interesting theories, a little strange and complex. |
z455t |
Edited by - Kno on 29 Oct 2009 08:23:48 |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Other planes and planets
