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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 02:28:32
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Maztica was a stretch. Zakhara tended to make Calimshan lose its shine. Kara Tur however I think was a VERY useful addition. IF anyone bothered to develop it, the setting would add ALOT to the fantasy of the realms.
In my campaign I do not allow Kensai, Samurai, Ninja, or other asian sorts of characters unless the character is from kara Tur. I am not a big fan of the EAST/WEST Amalgamation that is common in gaming ideas now. I have no problem with it per se, it is just not my style (maybe because I am a historian).
Maztica was a definite attempt at parralleling world history, BUT I managed to make this work. Amn no longer has the resources to reap all the gold from Maztica because Emperor Sythillis conquered half of Amn. Waterdeep as mercantile as they are (I am playing as idealists) have sent troops there NOT to take over, but to free the people from Amn. When Amn is beat down, I am going to establish a watch station there maintained by waterdeep to make sure Continental Faerunians do not act like the old Continental Europeans who later became Americans.
Zakhara... SUCH a good idea, but so POORLY executed. Zakhara would have worked well as a new campaign world, with all of its ARABIAN influences. I do not add Zakhara to my campaign, but I USE some of the Zakharan concepts to enhance Calimshan.
All three of these ideas were good. Kara tur had a place in the realms, Maztica should not have been added, but I made it work, and Zakhara was brilliant, but sadly shoe horned into the realms. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 03:06:17
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| Maztica I resent for wiping out Ed's Anchorome which we'll now never see. The Doug Niles Moonshaes likewise. Zakhara, I agree, is a perfectly fine setting that was only attached to the Realms for crossover sales reasons -- at least, I never heard any others. The joining does nothing for Zakhara, and having two Middle Eastlike regions, one loosely influenced and one directly based on Hollywood Arabia, is obviously inelegant design. Ed always met these surgeries with extraordinary public grace, doing design work with Doug's Moonshaes and Troy Denning's Bedine with no less energy than his own creations. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 04:08:34
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Only two? There was Calimshan, Semphar, the Bedine culture in Anauroch, and depending on how you read Akbar bel Akash Turmish was a sort of middle eastern realm . . .
Dispite the fact that I didn't quite enjoy the full "attachment" of Maztica to the Realms, I was kinda intriuged by what the more Northern tribes on the continent would be like. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 10:38:30
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Moonshaes may not have been part of Ed's original forgotten realms, but I fail to see how these islands did not fit in with the realms.
In fact from what I remember Darkwalker on Moonshae came out before any other realms novel. moonshae works fine, there is really no hindrance to it. I see how Zakhara, Maztica, Hordelands, Kara Tur etc may not have the 'realms feeling' but I fail to see how the Moonshaes do not have that feel.
Because it was made by someone else? How is Menzobarranzan any more realms than the moonshaes?
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 18:24:37
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Doug Niles substantially completed Darkwalker on Moonshae to be set in a new world that was going to be a 'British Dragonlance' before it was decided to place it in the Realms, when the book adopted the name of Ed's island chain but the rest -- the culture, names, gods -- wasn't substantially changed, and the sequels followed the first book's lead.
On the other hand, Bob Salvatore created Menzoberranzan after having read considerable Realms materials. The first is a bolt-on, the second a normal part of the shared-world process. Now, Doug's Moonshaes are not a particularly bad fit, but they stand out like a sore thumb compared to the Realms proper -- it couldn't have been otherwise given the circumstances of their writing -- even to TSR who didn't always exhibit any such sensitivity. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 22:14:59
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Well said indeed. But I fail to see how the SECOND trilogy did not follow suit with the realms. The moonshae Islands are separate from Faerun and so do not have all the power struggles of the secret societies affecting them and such.
I have been with the PUBLISHED realms from the beginning. Perhaps you have a closer relationship with Ed Greenwood and have known about it longer, and so may see the 'damage' adding the moonshaes has done. I think that TSR actually did a good job of bolting it on so to speak.
If you are going to say all this about the moonshaes, then the same can be applied to the Bloodstone Lands (Which I have used EXTENSIVELY). I think it was F9. This seems MORE jammed in the realms to me than the Moonshaes did. I still think Damara works, but it is obvious that Gareth and Company were a previous campaign that got added to the realms. I don't have a particular problem with this, but it actually seems like MORE of a bolt on than the Moonshaes do.
I have read alot of Ed Greenwood's writing mostly from Dragon pre published realms material, as well as things published on paper over the last several years, but still, I apparently am not as familiar as many of the scribes here on most of his thoughts.
I do not see how adding the Moonshaes would of hurt the addition of Anchor Home since the moonshae Island chain was already there. If you have any more information please do tell. I am interested in reading about it.
I can concur that Maztica was a half way attempt at a new land, and maybe THIS spoiled Anchorhome. But I do not see how the Moonshaes did. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 22:43:45
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I've gotta side with Mournblade on this one. If you want to start ripping on the Moonshae's for being "bolted-on", you could literally rip on about 50% to 60% of FR (don't tell me Mr. Greenwood created almost every location of the realms, because that would be a flat out lie). In my mind, the Moonshae's have a fantasy feel to them, and fit the overall world just fine. There are certainly many more places in Toril that don't fit the "dales" style of fantasy, far worse than the Moonshae's.
Geez, have you read Lady of Poison? What the hell is a Gungarian (or however you spell it)? Not that I hate Gungarian's at all, but they don't fit the "dales" style of fantasy either. Do you hate them as well? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 23:04:04
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Just a reminder, folks, let's keep it civil. No one's gotten out of hand yet, but I should really hate to see this thread get locked because of strong emotion.
We're also straying into a bolt-on versus original debate, which was not the original intent of the thread. We should rein it back in, thinks I. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 23:10:18
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Mournblade,
Yes, the second trilogy is a little more Realmslike, and yes, the fact that it's an island explains away the difference of tone to a degree -- though other islands have much better continuity with the Realms feel. I also agree that given the circumstances TSR did a fair job and that it isn't a particularly bad fit. But Doug's Moonshaes gain little (except book sales, of course) from being attached to Ed's Realms, attaching places with different design principles weakens the integrity of the whole, and we will now never get to read about the Moonshaes first mentioned in Dragon #69.
I think it was a mistake adding Vaasa and Damara too -- when I read FR9 it didn't seem like part of the Realms at all. The H-series modules certainly don't. But they only replaced part of a glacier, not an existing, developed island chain.
I didn't say the Moonshaes had anything to do with Ed's Anchorome -- it's Maztica that obliterated that, which is where the new Anchorome -- which isn't even detailed much -- is now.
wwwwwww,
No, Ed created almost all of Faerūn.
Attached outside of Faerūn: the Hordelands, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica
Attached within Faerūn: the Moonshaes, Vaasa and Damara, the Blade Kingdoms
Created within Faerūn by other people with the existing Realms in mind: many small places, like Icewind Dale, and also Erlkazar.
Plus there's the Bedine inserted into Anauroch, Rick Swan's feeble pseudo-Inuit Great Glacier, and Scott Bennie's somewhat-more-Earthified Old Empires, more or less out-of-tune developments of places Ed created.
Many people other than Ed have contributed to the detailing of Faerūn and added greatly to the Realms. The best of that work continues the spirit and design principles of Ed's work while adding its own creativity. Less good products approximate the Realms style less well or are just bland. But taking an independently created land and sticking it onto the Realms is entirely a different thing.
I haven't read Lady of Poison, no. But either the monster you refer to fits the Realms, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, that's bad. What point are you making?
And no one is lieing or hating here.
Woolly -- didn't see your post. Happy to continue this discussion on another thread. |
Edited by - Faraer on 16 Aug 2005 23:23:05 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 23:17:44
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OK fair enough!
Well what was Anchorome supposed to be? Was it another continent? Or was it another place like evermeet?
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 00:11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
And no one is lieing or hating here.
When you say things like, "Rick Swan's feeble pseudo-Inuit Great Glacier . . ." you are hating.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
more or less out-of-tune developments of places Ed created
According to who? You? Well I would consider that an opinion, like anyone else's opinion.
Back on topic, the Maztica trilogy is enjoyable, albeit quite different from other FR novels. |
Edited by - wwwwwww on 17 Aug 2005 00:15:20 |
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Maztica Trilogy
