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Olegreyowl
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 02:40:49
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Greetings everyone. Once upon an eon ago I was an avid gamer (still have milk crates full of gaming material from late 70's thru early 90's) and recently the reality of reality has become a serious drag so I'm digging out some source books, dusting off U1-U3 (My favorite adventures ever, I adapted the to be in the Realms way back when) and got to looking at the new version of D&D.
I must say I'm a little befuddled (Must be early onset senility). I'm not sure I get the new system. It seems like everything has become about the fights, almost like it's now a table top wargame like Warhammer. I don't see very many problem solving spells/abilities just combat/damage. And all the new powers and races seem almost like old school powermongering or the result of a Monty Hall campaign. It's like they took Tomb Raider and turned it into Duke Nukem. I always loved the "figure it out" games far more than the "Kill it!!" "It's dead" "Kill it anyhow!!!" kind of games. The Realms always seemed to me to be full of puzzles and who dunit's and bands of nafarious folk up to no good hiding in plain sight. The the party had to figure out who the bad guy was before they got around to the "Pointy end goes in the other guy" part.
Am I off base here? This post is not meant as bashing simply asking. I loved playing in the "old" days and I enjoyed 2nd edition enormously but I don't want to have to scour E-bay and pay "rare book" prices for the odd source book I can't seem to locate in the attic anymore. Besides new isn't always bad but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the new Realms and the WotC culture.
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"The secret to eternal life? Keep breathing." |
Edited by - Olegreyowl on 30 Sep 2009 03:23:55
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Hellkeepa
Seeker
Norway
61 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 03:39:20
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HELLo!
Considering your long standing heritage as a gamer, I must ask: Are you talking about 3rd ed, or 4th?
If it's the latter, then yeah: I got the same associations as you. Action-RPG is the word I'd use to describe it with. Same goes for a lot of players in my group(s). With the exception of a couple of people, quite literary, we all are sticking it out in 3.5.
Happy codin'! |
Dealing with 3.5 only. Refusing the reality of 4.0, and substituting it for my own. |
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Saegis
Acolyte
Canada
23 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 03:40:24
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I don't have the same pedigree in gaming as you do but I have been DMing a 4th edition game non-realms (my own campaign setting actually). In all honesty 4th edition has nothing to do with 1st, 2nd and Advanced editions. It's really a new system that's cleaned up the issues of 3rd and 3.5 editions. I enjoy the 3rd and 3.5, I believe it has more customization options than any other DnD edition but there were some horrible issues with it too. Just take a look at the grappling rules for 3.5 without shuddering.
4th edition definitely has less customization than other editions, the combat system is setup so every class is useful in a fight (even the bards), and small group tactics and strategy is paramount. I can understand that people have problems with it when they've had so many good memories playing older editions but the truth is that 4th edition is a dumbed down yet easily accessible version of DnD. Also if you read the DMG for 4th as well as the new DMG 2 you'll see that WOTC has been putting large amounts of effort into getting 4e DMs to encourage story development and roleplay. It's possible to get a 4th edition campaign featuring puzzles, mysteries, even negotiations but it really just takes time to learn the system.
On the other hand I don't think I'll ever DM a 4e post-spellplague campaign ever. I'm not a fan of what they've done with the lore. I love the edition but 4e Realms can be left to others. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 04:05:14
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If you enjoyed role-playing games in the early era of the industry, it is unlikely that you are in the target demographic for the Wizards of the Coast. Their strategy is to market to young toy buyers and when their age group grows up, they aim to replace them with the next age sector.
Retention of older customers is a nice bonus if they can get it, but there is no evidence that it is a priority for the company.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that it is every man's (or legal person's) right to utilise intellectual property in their possession in any way they choose. I wish Hasbro the best of luck with their investment.
I'm also of the opinion that what they are marketing as their flagship RPG is far enough removed from what I recognise as roleplaying for me not to able to utilise it as such. And what they are marketing as the Forgotten Realms bears only a superficial resemblence to that setting and would better have been published as a independent setting*.
I play Forgotten Realms games with the GURPS roleplaying game from Steve Jackson Games. I understand others have had success with something called Pathfinder. And, of course, your old D&D and AD&D stuff should still be in working order.
*From an artistic and moral point of view, at least. Time will tell if it was a good business decision. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 30 Sep 2009 04:05:55 |
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Olegreyowl
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 04:05:19
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Yea, I'm looking at 4th... Kinda skipped the intervining years with 3 and 3.5. As to WotC encouraging roleplaying, fine but it seems like they removed alot of tools and useful puzzle solving spells. Looking thru my 4e Players HB here I don't see anything like Hold Portal, Mending, Mount, Tenser's Floating Disc, and those are just some of the old 1st level spells! Where are the Priest spells like Warp wood, Withdraw, and Stone Shape. Some imagination and a couple of utility spells and players could really shake things up.
Are there more spells/feats in the other core books that provide tools like these for people who are not looking for a "dumbed down" system as you put it? Again I'm not bashing I just don't want to sink time/money into the new rules if it's all like this. Is 3 or 3.5 better? |
"The secret to eternal life? Keep breathing." |
Edited by - Olegreyowl on 30 Sep 2009 04:09:28 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 04:05:54
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Hello!
Time to chime in with the new Pathfinder rules! Check them out at the SRD. They cleaned up a lot of the 'problems' of 3.5 (including the aforementioned grappling rules) while keeping the flavor of the previous edition. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Saegis
Acolyte
Canada
23 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 04:39:38
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A lot of the utility spells in the previous editions still exist in 4e but they are now known as rituals. Tenser's floating disc is still around, as well as teleport spells, scrying, raise dead and so on. The thing with rituals in 4e is that they take time to cast them so they are unusable in combat but definitely open to out-of-combat puzzle solving.
As for tools if you're talking about in-game items the phb 1 as well as adventurer's vault 1 and 2 all contain a variety of items. Smokesticks, sunrods, glues, potions, alchemist's fire and acid etc. In 4e DMs generally plan out puzzles and what not using things termed as skill challenges. Of course I've found that DMing 3.5 and 4th you can really just add your own puzzles and houserule new tools or what not for the players.
Ashe: I'm glad to hear pathfinder fixed 3.5s problems. I had a group that played 3.5 but after we finished up a year and a half to two year campaign it kind of disintegrated. Maybe if they get back together I'll have an opportunity to try it out! |
Edited by - Saegis on 30 Sep 2009 04:42:52 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 06:53:05
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I'm one of those people who likes 3/3.5e & 4e about equally. (Well, maybe I like 3/3.5e a little more, but 4e's only been out for a year and a half now.)
I think if one judged the roleplaying merits of 4e based on the PHB alone, then it seems like a combat-only (or at least mostly) sort of game. That was exactly what I thought of 3.0 when it came out--that it completely eviscerated the roleplaying, problem-solving, and puzzle aspects of the game and made it all about the fight. The PHB seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time on combat and how to build characters for the fight, and the actual gameplay for a long time seemed all about moving minis around and playing a tactical fighting game.
The truth is, the game lends itself--just like editions of D&D past--to however much or however little roleplaying, problem-solving, puzzle-delving, and character development you want to do. The main goal, IMO, of the 4e PHB is to establish a set combat system--just what it should be doing.
As noted, the DMG is where you will find more rules for things like social challenges, puzzles, and all sorts of stuff. It's up to the DM how much of that you encounter, and if a DM's just interested in running combat, you're going to be doing a LOT of combat.
When it comes down to it, the key is to find what edition of the game works for you, and play that. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 18:13:44
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| Erik hit it right on the head. 4e provides a stable combat system; the DMG (and DMG2, which is amazing) is where you cna get guidance for making things fit your idea of an RPG. 3.x provided rules for darn near everything where 4e provides a framework for the storyteller to build on. I hope that makes sense. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 20:23:30
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It would be nice if the player handbook was to lay some groundwork/impression that gaming isn't just about combat. It would make the job easier for those GMs that want more RP in their DnD games.
For some, a PHB filled with combat rules is like giving a vial of cocaine to a patient and then telling them to have a doctor monitor its usage....
Ok, well not really. =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 20:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Erik hit it right on the head. 4e provides a stable combat system; the DMG (and DMG2, which is amazing) is where you cna get guidance for making things fit your idea of an RPG. 3.x provided rules for darn near everything where 4e provides a framework for the storyteller to build on. I hope that makes sense.
Some of us liked a fully furnished house as opposed to a framework 
But that's neither here nor there. It's all about what feels best to you, the player/DM. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 21:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Some of us liked a fully furnished house as opposed to a framework
It's like the difference between using the Realms and homebrewed settings: it all depends on how much of the work you want done for you, and how much you like filling in the blanks.
quote:
But that's neither here nor there. It's all about what feels best to you, the player/DM.
Indeed.
And Ashe does well to recommend Pathfinder, as well. It's a really cool system and a kick-ass campaign world as well.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 21:18:06
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| And let's be careful not to let this topic devolve into yet another session of bashing 4E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 21:28:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And let's be careful not to let this topic devolve into yet another session of bashing 4E.
No worries, o Wooly one. I've got my slippers of walking on eggshells +5 on.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 04:25:05
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I just thought of something ... and i'm sure it has been said elsewhere but i don't read that much forums so...
There seem to be a concensus about 4E being a simpler version of D&D ... well wouldn't it be interesting if they'd come out, in a year or so with ... Advanced Dungeons and Dragons!!! :) Now that would be a great come back to those players that left Wizards because it became too simple to play.
He, he ... i'm just goofing .. it could never happen :) or can it?
Pat |
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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Hellkeepa
Seeker
Norway
61 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 04:35:34
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HELLo!
All the spells you are inquering about, Olegreyowl, are found in the 3.5 PHB. As well as a lot more.
As my sig states; I prefer 3rd ed, warts and all. There are a few things that's been cleaned up and improved upon in 4th ed, but the most important ones are easily transferable to 3rd. The most important issue for me, namely character development, is something I find much more liberate in 3rd ed. I won't bash 4th ed, but I really dislike the "railroading" of the character development there. Especially the lack of flavour in choosing feats, classes (cross classing esp.), and similar things.
As mentioned above, though, 4th ed is still pretty new. So it might surprise us, the critics, in a couple of years. All I'm saying, in the meantime, is that I found the progress from 2nd ed to 3rd ed much more sensible and natural.
Happy codin'! |
Dealing with 3.5 only. Refusing the reality of 4.0, and substituting it for my own. |
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Olegreyowl
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 02:38:51
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So I took a look at the DMG2 like you said Matt and you're right there is a lot to recommend about it. I also read up on the Rituals Saegis and I really like the whole concept of them. It fits better with the Mages found in fiction that can do these kinds of things whenever there is a need. Still not to sure about the whole feat thing though. Still seems to make the PC's really powerful at a low level. My old groups and I always liked the whole concept of "Just barely above average Joe" getting the adventure bug and slowly gaining skills and power. Made us relish the rewards more and the big bad monsters more fearsome rather than "oh it's another Dragon" But on the whole the new 4e is not as one tracked as it seemed at first to me. Thanks guys for the pointers and not assuming I was a Troll. I still think I might use AD&D 2nd (Everything is coming back quite clearly, must not have drunk enough during some of those sessions  ), though I might add in some things like the rituals as house rules. (I really like that whole concept) |
"The secret to eternal life? Keep breathing." |
Edited by - Olegreyowl on 02 Oct 2009 02:40:27 |
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Saegis
Acolyte
Canada
23 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 09:08:00
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Olegreyowl,
Not a problem fellow scholar. I haven't been gaming very long (started in 3.5) and even I was unconvinced by 4th ed. until a friend decided to have a casual game and I ended up really liking it.
The truth is that the original edition of D&D that a player begins with will always hold fond memories and heroic tales nestled in their heart, and no new edition can replace that.
On the other hand you my find 4e perfect for hack and slash cheesy fun while you dedicate your AD&D 2nd campaign to the serious Realms exploration. Kind of like the difference between a bowl of macaroni & cheese on a rainy day and a great steak in the summer. |
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Hellkeepa
Seeker
Norway
61 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 09:26:02
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HELLo!
I must, partly, agree with Saegis here. The only difference being that I don't have too many fond memories of AD&D, even though I started with it. So I'd have to say that one has the fondest memories of what one has been playing for the longest time, and (thusly?) had the most fun playing.
As for the issue about the players seeming to be very powerful at 1st level in 4th ed: You have to be, everything else is.
Enjoy whatever version you decide to stick with though. :-)
Happy playin'! |
Dealing with 3.5 only. Refusing the reality of 4.0, and substituting it for my own. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 10:26:26
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Olegreyowl
I had a gap in playing and missed the switch to 3e/3.5e and had a hard time switching when I came back though sometime ago now. Now 4e has arrived. Like you I am a fan of 2e, so thats what I play mixing in a bit of 1e/3e/3.5e as i see fit. I have not fully read the new core books but I agree it seems more of hack and slash than solving probs.
If your having probs finding old or oop realms items try the various online stores and ebay but just watch what you pay some items can go from silly money (I know I used to sell them!) But you can still find bargins out there.
The game I fell in love with and one of the key reasons I still play is because of one little line in core books.
"In short, follow the rules as they are written if doing so improves your game. But by the same token, break the rules only if doing so improves your game." DMG AD&D 2e
For me this is cart-blanch to add, change or ignore whatever rules I want to make MY game better for me and my players. This way I enjoy MY Forgotten Realms, My way.
Oh and Saegis
Only if it's a Kraft Dinner
Love that Cheesey Pasta
Delz
Another way of looking at it ingame would be to have your character (2e/3e/3.5e) to have a " Dallas " and it was all a bad dream and to ignore the changes.
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Edited by - Delzounblood on 02 Oct 2009 10:45:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 15:01:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Saegis
The truth is that the original edition of D&D that a player begins with will always hold fond memories and heroic tales nestled in their heart, and no new edition can replace that.
I dunno... I grew up in 2E, and I think 3.5 is the best edition thus far. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Saegis
Acolyte
Canada
23 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 22:08:55
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Haha ok I'm not saying 2nd is the best. I started in 3.5 and I loved it. I played my first long campaign with 3.5 and it held many great memories for me. So maybe it's just me. Also I have a few friends who played 2nd and it was their favourite edition. I was trying to go for the idea that your first time with something can usually end up having the biggest impact on you and the memory of it always stays.
For example, (this isn't connected to the realms) the first MMORPG I ever played was Ultima Online. After having played WoW I realized that nothing was as magical and beautiful to me than UO even though it's an old system with terrible graphics that not many people play anymore.
Warning: Opinions may vary |
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Coming out of adventurer retirement
