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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 10:26:56
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I was reading in the Monster Mythology last night and became curious; were the lycanthropic deities found here ever included in the Realms? Most mentions I have seen of religious connections between the werecreatures and the gods were to Selune and Malar. Malar seems right for the wolfweres and jackalweres, with their even more bestial natures, but I have always thought of the natural lycanthropes as being creatures more or less on the sideline of humanity. Some individuals might, in addition to the infected lychanthropes, worship human deities, but for most others I see the racial gods as being more natural.
Any thoughts?
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Edited by - Jorkens on 04 Sep 2009 10:06:15
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 13:09:04
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| I haven't heard of them showing up, no. The only gods I've heard in relation to lycanthropes are the two you mentioned (going back at least as far as the werebear cleric of Selune in... shoot. I forget the title. The second Alias book, the one with Giogi Wyvernspur. Maybe Mask as well, for some wererats. That's about it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 14:11:23
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They never were really introduced, only mentioned as allies/foes of a particular god, e.g. check Powers and Pantheons under Nobanion.
And there's also Sebek. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 15:02:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I haven't heard of them showing up, no. The only gods I've heard in relation to lycanthropes are the two you mentioned (going back at least as far as the werebear cleric of Selune in... shoot. I forget the title. The second Alias book, the one with Giogi Wyvernspur. Maybe Mask as well, for some wererats. That's about it.
"The Wyvern's Spur" perhaps? I would see the "true" lycanthropes being the most likely to worship the Monster Mythology gods, but the "infected" lycanthropes would probably stick to the gods they worshipped prior to infection. Even the true lycanthropes might stick to standard Faerūn fare (a spellcaster might still worship Mystra, for instance).
In my view, the pantheon as presented in the three God Books (still my basic reference) should not be considered as being "the only ones". When Big Ed first shared the Realms pantheon with the world at large (in Dragon Magazine #54, I think), he also included the "Beast Lords" (some of which were lifted from Michael Moorcock), which never made it into later canon lore. So I would say that there is room for the Monster Mythology gods in the Realms. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 15:30:42
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That's the one. I could not come up with the title to save my life, though I could see the cover clearly.
I agree that there's always room for more gods in the Realms, but I'm not sure why these new ones would be needed. Most angles already seem to be covered by Selune and Malar, and lycanthropes who take another path would likely follow another god(s) as well. I'm all for new gods when they make sense, but these just seem redundant. Lycanthropes don't form their own communities (beyond maybe a pack), they aren't their own race, and they aren't geographically separated. A separate pantheon doesn't make much sense to me. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 18:02:59
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Thanks for the information and comments.
I have been scribbling a bit and am just going to throw out some loose ideas. Now, bare in mind that this is just a bit of brainstorming and there are probably a hundred canon reasons why this does not go together.
The gods of the Lycanthropes found in the Monster Mythology are:
Sqerrik; the god of thievery, disguise, concealment and wererats.
Balador; god of protection, fraternity and werebears.
Ferrix; the goddess of play, curiosity and weretigers.
Daragor; the god of marauding beasts, blood, pain, werewolves and seawolves.
Eshebala: Vanity, charm, greed cunning and werefoxes.
The more I think of it the more I am sure I want to keep them in the Realms. I will probably just keep them as patron spirits of the werecreatures, worshipped in addition to the common Realmsian gods of whatever pantheon they feel the closest ties to.
I prefer to keep things as polytheistic as possible in my Realms and am a bit uncomfortable with the idea of each individual choosing one patron. I know the idea had been there since the Grey box, but still. The nature of the deities and the relationship between clergy and believers of different gods will wary from region to region and from race to race.
But the weres are something different, they exists as predators outside of the common norms and races of the Realms and should have some difference in their religion.
This easily becomes a question of the nature and history of werebeasts. Are they diseased, cursed, magical creatures? The answer of this question can go a long way in deciding how the weres will stand in relationship to the divine powers.
One idea could be that the gods of the lycanthropes are ancient forms and manifestations of gods still in existence today. Squerric could be an image of Mask, Balador could be Helm, Ferrix could be an ancient name for Sharess or Sune, Daragor could be Malar. Eshebala is a bit more difficult, she could be a dark image of Sune or an aspect of Shar. I would say she is in some way the daughter of the two.
This could lead one to assume that the weres are descendants of priests or loyal worshippers of these gods, given the power to "convert" followers in a more bloody and direct way than today. The natural lycanthropes would then be ancient families still following the ways of their forefathers. This might have in some way have incurred the anger of Selune (or Shar ) and resulted in them being cursed with a loss of control of their changes when the moon is in its greatest strength. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 18:06:17
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Another possibility is that of the Beast Cults. I have always included nature spirits of all forms in my game and the beast cults found in the first version of the Realms-pantheon (Ed Greenwood in Dragon 54) fits nicely with this system. Now, what if the lycanthropes are just a remaining element of these old religions? The gods might have been more or less forgotten, but the descendants of those "blessed" can still be found. Or maybe the beast.cults are alive and well, either as separate beliefs or as parts of the faith in newer gods? In this case it could be an idea to try to tie one were-creature to each of the beast cults, so as to give each spirit a "gift-form"
Lets see:
Besparr: Horses.
This spirit could be the forefather of the centaurs. Alternatively one could use the shapechanging centaurs called Chevall in the Known World.
Camazotz:Bats.
The werebat is a natural candidate here
Fileet: Birds.
The wereraven is a good choice. The swanmaiden and the Zakharan birdmaidens could also have ties to this spirit.
Haaashastaak: Lizardkin.
There are not that many clear choices here, but this could be changed to an aspect of Shespek.
Hlyyaak: Lord of camels.
OK, here I have no ideas.
Lolth: The queen of spiders.
There are several forms of shapechanging spiders, such as the Araene (sp?) which could serve the role here. Even the drider might originally have been a failed experiment in csapechanging.
Lurue: Intelligent and talking beasts.
No single creature seems to be needed.
Meerclar: Cats.
The werecats are a perfect match.
Nnuuurrrr's's: Insects
I cant think of a good match here.
Nobaion: Lions and strong beasts.
The Zakharan werelion is a good idea here.
Nuru-ah. Cattle
The idea I like the best would be to have the minotaurs originally having been chapechangers, but now caught in their hybrid form.
Pyaray: Sea creatures.
There are many choises here, weresharks, wererays and creatures such as selkie, depending on the nature one feel the spirit should have.
Repra: Serpents.
The Yuan-ti could originally have been the servants of this spirit.
Roofdrak: dogs.
The werejackal is one alternative, alternatively one could introduce the lupins as servants.
Sneel: Rats
Squerrik of course.
This idea could be used to explain a long list of combined creatures. All of these could originally have been forms given to tie the worshippers closer to the form of the deity.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 19:38:34
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I think I like the idea of godly aliases more than the beast cults (I'm the opposite from you, I've never included them). Now, whether those gods started out as lycanthrope dieties, or were subsumed by other gods (like those of the Yuir elves) would be another debate.
It's interesting, but not something I'd include in my Realms, I don't think. I'm happy with Selune, Malar, and assorted random others for the odd-balls. Probably Sharess for werefoxes and weretigers, in different guises. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 20:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I think I like the idea of godly aliases more than the beast cults (I'm the opposite from you, I've never included them). Now, whether those gods started out as lycanthrope dieties, or were subsumed by other gods (like those of the Yuir elves) would be another debate.
It's interesting, but not something I'd include in my Realms, I don't think. I'm happy with Selune, Malar, and assorted random others for the odd-balls. Probably Sharess for werefoxes and weretigers, in different guises.
I wasn't so much thinking that they started out as lychantropic deities as this being a bastardisation of an earlier, more primitive manifestation, still worshipped (or just remembered)by small cultic groups, such as certain lycanthropes.
I don't think this would work in most Realms-campaigns, not without a good deal of modification, but its fun to just ramble out some ideas from time to time. |
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xaviera
Learned Scribe
Canada
149 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 20:49:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Probably Sharess for werefoxes and weretigers, in different guises.
The Eyes of the Evening are female werecats (in the form of common housecats) who worship both Selune and Sharess - not surprisingly, given that they receive those powers from those goddesses.
While it might make sense for weretigers or werelions to worship Sharess just for the cat connection, they could just as easily worship, say, Nobanion.
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Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 21:32:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I was reading in the Monster Mythology last night and became curious; were the lycanthropic deities found here ever included in the Realms? Most mentions I have seen of religious connections between the werecreatures and the gods were to Selune and Malar. Malar seems right for the wolfweres and jackalweres, with their even more bestial natures, but I have always thought of the natural lycanthropes as being creatures more or less on the sideline of humanity. Some individuals might, in addition to the infected lychanthropes, worship human deities, but for most others I see the racial gods as being more natural.
Any thoughts?
You've just jogged my memory with regard to the Lythari (from Elves of Evermeet). I'm not sure if they worship any deity next to Corellon and the Seldarine though.
Sorry for the brief response. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 08:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I was reading in the Monster Mythology last night and became curious; were the lycanthropic deities found here ever included in the Realms? Most mentions I have seen of religious connections between the werecreatures and the gods were to Selune and Malar. Malar seems right for the wolfweres and jackalweres, with their even more bestial natures, but I have always thought of the natural lycanthropes as being creatures more or less on the sideline of humanity. Some individuals might, in addition to the infected lychanthropes, worship human deities, but for most others I see the racial gods as being more natural.
Any thoughts?
You've just jogged my memory with regard to the Lythari (from Elves of Evermeet). I'm not sure if they worship any deity next to Corellon and the Seldarine though.
Sorry for the brief response.
I took a look at the Lythari last night. According to the Elves of Evermeet book the Lythari worship Rillifane and the wilderness Seldarine, but actually has stronger ties to Oberon and Titania. This might be a sign that indicated that the Seelie gods are involved in giving the Seldarin their lycanthropic nature. I dont know how this fits with newer lore, but that would be my take on it at least. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 08:08:35
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Some more goofing around.
Besparr: Horses.
The horse-god Besparr is in northern Faerun and in civilized areas mainly remembered in legends and stories. He is often described either as a saviour of those in distress and as a tempter. Sometimes his role is beneficiary, and other times he is a danger to those who long for more than life can give. Many legends in the Cormyr area tie him to Shandaukul and describe him as a servant of that god. Others in Cormyr, near the lands of the Tun have more sinister stories to tell.
It seems like he had an important role among the Tethen tribes of the southern Sword Coast where signs of rituals, involving large-scale sacrifice and other things barely whispered of today that were once common, is still common for those who know what to look for. Today he is still seen as a protector of the travellers and the riders, much in the same way as Shandaukul is in the north and many smaller communities have a minor shrine to the Besparr. These are usually tended by wandering mystics and druids who, to a varying degree, revere the horse-lord.
In the Shining plains he is seen as a protector of man and even, in some isolated areas, as the father of man. This tradition is still living among the nobles of some of the more civilized areas of the region also, as the horse is both a status-symbol and a source of power to the warrior class.
Even though the horse-lord is seemingly unknown among the Tuigan, at least in the form known in the west, he has a large following in the Shaar and other southern plain lands. He is usually seen in his most beneficiary role here, especially among those who have the horse as their totem. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 08:09:38
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Camazotz:Bats.
The lurker and spy of the Vilhon. Here, and in many areas of the Sea of Fallen Stars a short whisper placating the lord of bats is still whispered by those who close the shutters before the night. He is a silent shadow who rapport to the dark gods Shar and Mask of the secrets of humans and other creatures. His love for strife and mischief has made him both adored and hated among even the evil predators of civilized lands, as he is capricious in both his help and hindrance.
There are many tales that tie him to the lord of Vampires, but these are mostly untrue. Camazotz has a special hate for the Undead Lord as his creatures both enslave the bat and takes its shape without giving proper recognition to their master.
The same goes for Loth, who prey on his children in the Underdark. The Darklands holds the majority of Camazotz worshippers, but he usually keeps to the lands above after nearly falling prey to the She-spider herself long ago. He will still try to irritate the Drow when he can though, leading many travellers of the Underdark to see him, wrongly, as a beneficiary guide to those trying to escape the dark elves. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 08:14:43
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For the lythari (eastern ones at least) there's Hronyewachu, not a complete deity, more like a fey spirit with demigod abilities. Maybe Fileet and others are something similar, like animal lords not of the Beastlands but of the Prime Material.
Other possible obscure options, Bright Nydra, the demigoddess of the winter moon (source, Polyhedron 117 I think).
Personally I never used lycanthropes much, except in Amtar and Dambrath (call it the land of Rawh in hombrew) where are the Black Blood cultists, but also lycanthropes that follow the path of goodness, inspired by guardinal paragons, philosophy of accepting who they are, balancing the bestial and human side, becoming shifters. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 08:20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Other possible obscure options, Bright Nydra, the demigoddess of the winter moon (source, Polyhedron 117 I think).
Ok, now you really got me curious (and irritated that I lack the Polyhedron magazines) is this a Realmsian deity or a general deity?
quote:
Personally I never used lycanthropes much, except in Amtar and Dambrath (call it the land of Rawh in hombrew) where are the Black Blood cultists, but also lycanthropes that follow the path of goodness, inspired by guardinal paragons, philosophy of accepting who they are, balancing the bestial and human side, becoming shifters.
To be quite honest I think I have used one weretiger years ago and that's it. I have used quite a few wolfweres and jackalweres though.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 08:39:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Other possible obscure options, Bright Nydra, the demigoddess of the winter moon (source, Polyhedron 117 I think).
Ok, now you really got me curious (and irritated that I lack the Polyhedron magazines) is this a Realmsian deity or a general deity?
Bright Nydra is also an alias [in the Farsea Marshes] for Selūne. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 09:26:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Other possible obscure options, Bright Nydra, the demigoddess of the winter moon (source, Polyhedron 117 I think).
Ok, now you really got me curious (and irritated that I lack the Polyhedron magazines) is this a Realmsian deity or a general deity?
Bright Nydra is also an alias [in the Farsea Marshes] for Selūne.
Strange that it is in a land that far south that she should be kept in reverence. I wonder how she stands in the north and in relationship with Auril? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 09:28:58
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Fileet: Birds.
The mistress of the Birds is among those beast lords with the strongest position in the present Realms. Even today she is seen as a central deity in the world-view of the more traditionally minded tethens, where the role of birds is still important, both in magic and in daily life. Interestingly enough this is reversed in many Calishite tales where she is a thief of both hearts and property. She is not revered in these lands though.
Among the bards she is a powerful presence, both as a symbol used in songs and legends and as a helper of the Harpers, who traditionally rely heavily on the eyes of birds to help them. Mystics and druids also keep close ties to Fileet and her many servants, relying on the advice of giant owls, talking ravens and numerous other magical winged creatures. It is also among these one can find the closest thing to what could be called a clergy. The mystics serve as augurs, reading the flight of the birds and seers of a sort, getting news from the birds flying rough the area, and the druids see her as a tie between the gods of nature and man.
Fileet might have had the potential to have been a major deity in Faerun, but like her children she is to unpredictable and to varied in her form and manifestations. She can rob the farmers field with her flocks and kill the children with her monstrous birds of prey, and the next moment whisper warnings of raiders closing and serenade lovers in a hidden glens.
She is seen as a member of the Seelie by some of the elven communities of the southern woodlands and even though this is a misunderstanding tied to the Swanmays, she has close friendships with member of Titanias court.
In the Furrowed lands north of Zakhara she is the patron of many of the unenlightened tribes where the Phoenix is seen as her most blessed form and a sign of her pleasure. Most likely the birdmaidens of the southern continent has some ties to these mountains also. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 09:30:40
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Haaashastaak: Lizardkin.
Haashastaak is a god of many forms and natures. He can take the form of large man eating predators and small, lightning-fast lizards running around man on a daily basis. These days he is mostly concerned with the smaller and more lively of his servants, having more run-ins with the deities of the intelligent reptiles than he cares for. This has also kept him from going into the trap of many of his more powerful relatives, the slow, sleep-full drift into obscurity.
In spite of this there are still areas where the inhabitants bow before alters dedicated to placating great lizards and reptiles that prey on men and their flocks. In the Underdark he is often given a word of thanks by all those who use giant lizards for transport and riding animals. Non-humans, such as lizardmen and goblins will at times revere him, but this is increasingly rare, as the other deities of these creatures take a dim view of this "sniping" among their worshippers.
Haashastaak has a troubled relationship with most of the other beast powers as his creatures are a common source of food and irritation among the other creatures. He is often seeking the help and support of other divine powers and powerful creatures, playing a dangerous game that often leads him astray. On more than one occasion it is said that Silvanus has been forced to give him a hand to keep some angry power from venting his anger on the Lizard.
Haashastaak is seen as a clown and a fool among the lands of the ancient empires, mostly seen as doing good through pure accident. In areas where Nnuuurrrr'c'c power is strong he is kept in higher regard though, as lizards of all sizes are a great help in keeping the insects at bay.
An ancient tradition also holds him to be the father of Ibrandul the great lizard of the Underdark. The fate of this deity has lead him to seek vengeance against Shar, but unfortunately his alternatives are not many.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 09:44:52
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About Bright Nydra (I happen to have Polyhedrons around for that Chalsembyr thread, are they canon?). She's an aspect of Selune, legends claim the daughter of Selune and Shaundakul. CG demipower of the Prime, portfolios of winter moon, hope and renewal. Auril is mentioned as her foe. Worshipped only by the Marsh Drovers of the Farsea Marshes, as the head of a pantheon (includes Eldath, Lathander, Mielikki, Chauntea). No mention of lycanthropes.
Btw I really like that you're including Zakhara. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 11:06:42
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Thanks Quale. Thats one bit of great Realmslore i have missed.
And here comes some more Zakhara related bits.
Hlyyaak: Lord of camels.
OK, so this one is a bit difficult as I don't like the idea of the Bedine, making it a bit difficult to include camels in the northern Realms. It is easily judged that a wizard has gated the animals in from other areas, but I have some difficulty seeing the Beast cult following with them. .
But camels could still be used in the southern Shar and among the eastern nomads who use the more cold resistant two-humped camels as transport animals. Even in the lands north of Thar nomads might make use of camels.
Where the cult is known, Hlyyaak is seen as a benevolent and wise helper of men who live in constant movement through harsh regions. But he is also stubborn to a fault and has been known to at a whim abandon his followers if he feels pressured. Interestingly enough, there seems to be a constant theme of the quest among the different groups who pay homage to the king of camels. He will at various times request his followers to make long travels, seeking knowledge or treasure he claims are needed to keep the land safe from the four gods of the winds, as he call them. Some think this to mean the four gods of the elements, other take it to be a reference to Shaundakul, who he feels is neglecting to give him the honour he deserves.
In Zakhara there are several stories, even among the most conservative enlightened nomads, of the Grandfather camel and his descendants. These "royal" camels have the wisdom and morals of men and can trace their line back to the favoured camel of the Loregiver himself. The Grandfather camel is a central figure in short moral-tales and children's tales. In the larger city's he can even be seen as a central figure in the plays put up by puppeteers in the bazaars and marketplaces.
Most likely this Grandfather camel is a "de-deified" version of Hlyyaak, who is still worshipped by unenlightened nomads of the northern deserts and by the hill men of the Furrowed Mountains. Many of the hill men have a natural fear of all large bovine creatures, thanks to the Yakmen, which gives the camel an even stronger position than it would logically have in their lives. Several Moralist priest, newly arrived from The League of the Pantheon has been encouraging the Mameluks of Qudra to stage raids against the settlements of the Alaziir valley, where a flock of white camels regarded as sacred by the hill men, can be found. Both General Adun Abd al-Amin of the Faithful (interested in restoring his reputation) and the impetuous General Kalin Abd al-Bas of the Valiant has shown interest in the idea.
Further south there is little left of the direct religious belief in Hlyyaak, although one can easily find old statues and figurines in ruins that testify to the range of his followers in earlier days. Because of this there might still be smaller groups in the far south and south-east that still cling to the old days, but this is still unclear.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 11:08:26
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Lolth: The queen of spiders.
I will let this one alone, as anything I wrote here would conflict with canon in any number of ways.
But it is easy to imagine there being an older deity of the spiders, an animalistic creature who has lost her power in the Underdark to the Demon Queen. This Spider queen might still have the loyalty of the surface spiders and of numerous intelligent creatures bearing the blood of spiders, such as Ettercaps and Araena's. Stories can now tie her to the beliefs of Talona, Shar or even (in a more benevolent visage) to Selune.
The name of this goddess might have been mixed with the queen of the drow, making the two identical to most inhabitants of Faerun. That does not mean that there cant be small, hidden groups in the ancient city's of the southern Sword Coast who still worship her in hiding, making sacrifices to enormous intelligent spiders who as little interest in being noticed by the drow or their ruler. Secret societies can grow out of these, seeing themselves as predators working through a net of hidden passages and sewers in various city's.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 11:11:48
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Lurue: Intelligent and talking beasts.
Again, a deity with so strong a canon position in the Realms that it is difficult for me to actually put her into an alternative context.
Stories could tie her to both the Seelie court and to the horse-god Besparr. Besparr could even be seen as the mate of Lurue in some regions and horse-farmers of the Shining plains might claim that their stock can trace their lineage back to the offspring of these two deities. These would mostly be legends though. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 21:56:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Thanks for the information and comments.
I have been scribbling a bit and am just going to throw out some loose ideas. Now, bare in mind that this is just a bit of brainstorming and there are probably a hundred canon reasons why this does not go together.
The gods of the Lycanthropes found in the Monster Mythology are:
Sqerrik; the god of thievery, disguise, concealment and wererats.
Balador; god of protection, fraternity and werebears.
Ferrix; the goddess of play, curiosity and weretigers.
Daragor; the god of marauding beasts, blood, pain, werewolves and seawolves.
Eshebala: Vanity, charm, greed cunning and werefoxes.
The more I think of it the more I am sure I want to keep them in the Realms. I will probably just keep them as patron spirits of the werecreatures, worshipped in addition to the common Realmsian gods of whatever pantheon they feel the closest ties to.
I prefer to keep things as polytheistic as possible in my Realms and am a bit uncomfortable with the idea of each individual choosing one patron. I know the idea had been there since the Grey box, but still. The nature of the deities and the relationship between clergy and believers of different gods will wary from region to region and from race to race. <chop>
I agree entirely with your wishes to keep things as polytheistic as possible. More gods = more interesting, imho.  I am keeping the werecreature gods with their full divine status (whether lesser powers or demipowers, undecided as yet). I like the idea of Nobanion as the god of werelions. I would also make Daragor the deity of wolfweres (I know the two species hate each other, and that fits with Daragor's portfolio). I'm not sure what to do with werecrocodiles; the Mulhorandi pantheon (including Sebek and Set) is gone in my Realms, so I may take one of the World Serpent aspects here, probably Sseth (the takeover of Sseth by Set did not happen in my Realms); other suggestions are welcome. I also like the idea of making Iakhovas a demipower and the god of weresharks and sharkweres (see this scroll for more on Iakhovas; I'd like to know more about his very early existence, if anybody has anything there it would be much appreciated). I'm also trying to fit the werejackals and jackalweres in somehow (not sure if the werejackal was ever given stats in any edition).
Anyway, I've said enough for one post.  To recap: Jorkens, keep the separate werecreature gods. I like the idea that infected werecreatures worship their base race gods as well; it only makes sense, imho, and as Ed has said, people of the Realms often pay homage to multiple deities, depending on the situation, unless they are members of a specific deity's priesthood (and even then, if the other deity invoked is an ally of the priest's deity, it's generally not a bad thing). |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 11:28:23
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The werejackals were detailed in Ravenloft ( I cant remember which appendix right now) in 2ed.
There are several references to werelions serving Nobaion in Faiths & Avatars. Rather interesting as the Lawful Evil nature of these creatures would not make them natural allies of the Lion GOd.
As for the Wolfweres (and to a degree the Jackalweres) there are several possibilities. As you said Daragor is a good alternative. Or you could use the idea that Eshebala created them to oppose her brother and rival. As her werefoxes have a canine nature themselves this is not impossible.
A last alternative could be to have Malar as the patron of these two races, as they are closer to the beast. Daragor might have threaded to close to the portfolio of the Beast-god, making him angry enough to created creatures that by their natures oppose the Werewolves.
Even Nobaion or Lurue could be the originators of the two. Their idea could have been to give intelligence and magic to some creatures that they saw as potential guardians against the creatures of Daragor and Malar, only to have the magic go horribly wrong in some way with the predatory nature of the wolf and jackal overruling all other qualities. |
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PhoenixTalion
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2009 : 23:36:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
But it is easy to imagine there being an older deity of the spiders, an animalistic creature who has lost her power in the Underdark to the Demon Queen. This Spider queen might still have the loyalty of the surface spiders and of numerous intelligent creatures bearing the blood of spiders, such as Ettercaps and Araena's. Stories can now tie her to the beliefs of Talona, Shar or even (in a more benevolent visage) to Selune.
The name of this goddess might have been mixed with the queen of the drow, making the two identical to most inhabitants of Faerun. That does not mean that there cant be small, hidden groups in the ancient city's of the southern Sword Coast who still worship her in hiding, making sacrifices to enormous intelligent spiders who as little interest in being noticed by the drow or their ruler. Secret societies can grow out of these, seeing themselves as predators working through a net of hidden passages and sewers in various city's.
Ooh. I like this a lot -- the idea that Araushnee usurped the position of an older Underdark goddess when she became Lolth. |
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"What hope hath man for good and evil, when all our Gods are scoundrels? Truth is what you make of it, 'tis best we pray that conviction be a virtue, and follow whatever twisting path is destined by our crooked stars..."
~The Crooked Books |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 00:28:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
The werejackals were detailed in Ravenloft ( I cant remember which appendix right now) in 2ed.
They were detailed in the third appendix. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 01:41:18
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| I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the New Moon Pact, an organization of good aligned lycanthropes who appose the work of Shar in the name of Selūne. The Pact appears in Mistress of the Night by Don Bassingthwaite and Dave Gross. The Pact was turned into a prestige class in Bestiary of the Realms: Volume 2 by Thomas M. Costa and Eric L. Boyd. It was available online at one point. Does anyone have a link for it? |
Afet bint Tuzanķ
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 09 Sep 2009 01:45:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 03:55:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the New Moon Pact, an organization of good aligned lycanthropes who appose the work of Shar in the name of Selūne. The Pact appears in Mistress of the Night by Don Bassingthwaite and Dave Gross. The Pact was turned into a prestige class in Bestiary of the Realms: Volume 2 by Thomas M. Costa and Eric L. Boyd. It was available online at one point. Does anyone have a link for it?
Yes and no... The file was on Eric Boyd's website, and is currently unavailable while his site is being redesigned. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 05:21:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the New Moon Pact, an organization of good aligned lycanthropes who appose the work of Shar in the name of Selūne. The Pact appears in Mistress of the Night by Don Bassingthwaite and Dave Gross. The Pact was turned into a prestige class in Bestiary of the Realms: Volume 2 by Thomas M. Costa and Eric L. Boyd. It was available online at one point. Does anyone have a link for it?
Yes and no... The file was on Eric Boyd's website, and is currently unavailable while his site is being redesigned.
And there has been talk about storing these particular PDFs here at Candlekeep. But I haven't had the opportunity to discuss it any further with either Tom or Eric.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Gods of the Lycanthropes and the Beast Cults?
