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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2009 : 19:31:56
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1385 (The Year of Blue Fire)
The event warned of (however and whenever you choose as DM) occurs when Shar attempts to use the Shadow Weave to cut Mystra off from the Weave. For a time, this succeeds, creating storms of blue-white fire and lightning across much of Toril. The storms of blue fire cause instabilities in magic all around Toril to a degree not seen since the Time of Troubles. Arcane spellcasting is banned in most towns and cities, and the fabric of nature is briefly thrown into chaos, with immediate and long-term effects of varying degrees in many areas. This event is known as the Spellplague, during which almost the entire world of Toril is effectively one big wild magic zone.
The great instabilities in the Weave, even more pronounced than those occurring in the Time of Troubles, cause the Weave nexus beneath Evermeet, which had allowed the elves to create the island in the first place, to unravel. Many of the elves who did not join Seiviril’s Crusade are killed as the island collapses beneath the waves of the Trackless Sea. Many other elves survive the destruction at least briefly, fleeing Evermeet via portals (which, due to the instabilities in the Weave, don’t always take people to the same destination that they did before) or in boats and ships of all sizes. Many of the smaller craft are swamped by the resulting tsunami, but many of the larger vessels make it to the shores of Faerûn or Anchorome.
With the disruption of the Weave nexus, the formerly out-of-phase land of Laerakond returns to Toril, having been shunted into an extradimensional pocket (which created the Weave nexus in the first place) by powerful (draconic? sarrukh?) magic long before the Sundering. This return shatters what is left of Evermeet, causing it to disappear entirely from the face of Toril. (Yes, Laerakond is now where Evermeet was.)
As Mystra and Shar struggle for control of the Weave in Realmspace, in the Greyspace crystal sphere, the gods Erythnul and Wee Jas attempt to wrest control of all magic from Boccob. The resulting simultaneous instability in magic in two crystal spheres creates a resonating field between them, which causes the crystal spheres to collide. (Yes, I'm still using 2E cosmology; I'm working on using the Spellplague to change the cosmology, but that's a work in progress; I'll update this scroll when that's complete.)
Due to the titanic forces of wild magic being unleashed within the crystal spheres during the struggles, and the greater number of deities of magic within the Realmspace crystal sphere, the gods of Oerth are pulled from Greyspace into Realmspace.
Stern Alia, whose ties to the lands of Oerik and the Oeridian people are too strong to permit her migration, is slain; she is torn asunder by the immense forces pulling her in two different directions.
As she is pulled apart, so too is the world of Oerth, which literally falls apart in a cataclysm of massive earthquakes and all attendant disasters that accompany them (tsunamis, which in turn create hurricanes, etc.). The satellites of Oerth careen out of control, smashing the Greyspace crystal sphere into ruins before the collision can greatly damage the Realmspace crystal sphere, and flying off into the phlogiston.
The faithful of the other deities of Greyspace are pulled through the conduit into Realmspace with their deities, and are deposited in Osse, the continent to the east of Kara-Tur. (In my Realms, Osse was formerly uninhabited, at least by humans, elves, dwarves, and the like; I couldn't find anything to say otherwise.) Due in large part to Zagyg's magic, the entire intact Free City of Greyhawk, including the dungeons beneath Castle Greyhawk, makes this trip as well. Yes, I'm ripping off Markustay shamelessly here, having the City of Greyhawk in my Realms, but I want to be able to use the new material being published by Troll Lord Games. 
Mystra’s loss of control of the Weave causes instabilities in both it and the Shadow Weave, and Mystra’s assembled Chosen, previously alerted by their goddess to be ready for this coming threat, take this opportunity to act, infusing the gaps in the Weave (occupied by the otherwise-invisible and equally unstable Shadow Weave) with Mystra’s silver fire in a very similar process to that used by Shar to create the Shadow Weave over 1700 years earlier.
While all of this is happening, Cyric attempts to kill Mystra in Dweomerheart (having gained entry thanks to the distraction of Shar’s attack on the Weave)… and succeeds in infusing her with the divine essence of Leira, which had hidden intact within Cyric since the Time of Troubles by giving Cyric the appearance of having killed her and absorbed her portfolio, and which now migrates into Mystra. This sudden infusion of power and the portfolio of Illusion, coupled with the infusion of silver fire into the Shadow Weave, allows Mystra to completely absorb the Shadow Weave into the Weave, depriving Shar of any control over arcane magic and reducing her to the status of an intermediate power.
Cyric, now reduced to an intermediate power thanks to Leira’s deception and sudden absence, feels the full force of a backlash of Mystra’s new power, and is shunted back to his home plane and incapacitated, apart from granting spells to his faithful, for 666 days.
Shadow Weave users are struck deaf, dumb, blind, and feebleminded for a tenday, after which these effects dissipate. All abilities relating to the Shadow Weave are lost without compensation.
All of the prayers and shifts in mortal allegiances during the Spellplague greatly benefit Azuth, who becomes an intermediate power, and Savras, who grows from a demipower to a lesser power.
The battle with Shar and the influx of magical energy combine to unhinge Mystra somewhat, and she changes from CG to CN in alignment.
Ao reinstates Leira as a lesser power, in her former role as patron of illusions and phantasms. She joins Mystra, Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon in Dweomerheart.
With the return of Bhaal and Myrkul (yes, they're back; this happens earlier; briefly, Nhyris D'Hothek finds an Imaskari relic that reacts unpredictably with the Crown of Horns, causing Myrkul's rebirth, and Bhaal is restored to divinity by means of my tweaking of the BG CRPG storyline, with things unfolding according to Bhaal's plan), and the recent actions of Cyric, Ao elevates Torm to the status of a greater power to maintain the balance. (I like Bhaal and Myrkul, and if I'd started DMing before 2E, none of the Dark Three would have died in the first place, and the ToT may never have happened at all.) One of Bhaal's first acts as Lord of Murder, with Myrkul's assistance, is to slay Kelemvor while the latter is distracted by the struggles of his former lover with Shar.
In the immediate aftermath of the Spellplague, the arcane storms of the High Moor (old Miyeritar) grow in size and intensify in strength over the following years, almost immediately becoming too intense for anyone to enter the region. Just as before, the reclaimed area around the city of Rhymanthiin is unaffected by these storms. Exactly what is happening in the High Moor is unknown at this time.
The rest of Toril is affected just as it was during the ToT: pockets of dead magic and wild magic appear scattered across the land, and many of these dissipate within a few months, with nearly all of the rest disappearing over the following decade. As for when a DM wants to start the campaign, that's entirely open; if you like having your players deal with wild magic and dead magic, then late 1385 might be your thing. Otherwise, you might want a ten- or fifteen-year time jump, and that's as big a time jump as there should have been in the first place, imho. Anyway, if you like this, use it, in whole or in part, and if you have any other theories (this means you, Mace!), I'd love to see them in this scroll. 
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Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 02 Sep 2009 19:53:01
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Randal_Dundragon
Seeker
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 02:55:28
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| Wow... all i can say is wow... Ya know if wotc had used that for the Spellplague i would have gone with it... Not only does it accomplish what they wanted you add a whole slew of interesting story elements. Heck you could even weaken the chosen because they had to put so much of their energy into repairing the weave. Seriously nice job Jakk, wish they would have gone this route. Plus you had one of my favorite dieties come back (two of them actually) Bhaal and leira, Awesome :). |
Its simple really, Your an idiot and I'm simply a figment of your imagination |
Edited by - Randal_Dundragon on 03 Sep 2009 02:56:47 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 03:42:39
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Thanks for the props, Randal, but it doesn't accomplish what WotC wanted (imho); for one, the time jump isn't big enough to invalidate the old lore (which I think was an intended goal, thanks to complaints about "too much baggage" for the setting, although my scenario is open-ended enough to allow them to jump two hundred years if they wanted to), and for two, the big NPCs are all still around in my version (even if they are weakened as you suggest; thanks for the idea!), which (according to some) means that there is no reason for PCs in the setting.  That issue has been beaten to death elsewhere, but you can guess how I feel about that. 
 Anyway, good to hear someone else likes what I've done. There may be minor edits to the original post to clarify and detail some events. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 03 Sep 2009 03:47:23 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 04:34:14
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Muahaha... anything that keeps the lore coming out is good, even if we get half a dozen (or more) different versions of the same event. The Spellplague didn't turn me into a Realmslore revisionist (I think that happened with the deaths of Bhaal and Myrkul in the ToT), but it certainly kicked that part of me into action.
The more alternate histories we have, the more cherry-picking we can all do to make our Realms exactly what we each want them to be.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 06:16:07
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Nice job Jakk.
I also wanna read a story about what heroes could've done to PREVENT the Spellplague! Surely faithful priests, high-level magic users, sages of Candlekeep (in Toril, not earth!), and good-hearted adventurers and laymen would've gotten visions of what was laying up ahead for them, and what they could possibly do or ordain to prevent it! |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2009 : 12:48:58
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| Good take, Jakk. You find a good and personal way to do the same thing, and that can work very well to many campaigns. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 04:10:58
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While I understand your sentiment for wishing to have an alternative scenario, I feel you miss the point somewhat.
In order to have a heroic saga there needs to be conflict, and the burden of resolving that conflict must fall squarely upon the heroes. In the context of a story, you have a brief exposition of tranquility--which is then disrupted by conflict, usually by an unstoppable event or an empowered villain. The more epic the saga the greater the conflict must be. In the case of the 4E campaign setting, they have skipped the tranquility aspect by introducing the conflict head on, and in turn have spared the DM the trouble of finding out a way to disrupt the equilibrium of good and evil in the world to facilitate an adventure.
The setting presented in the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide is one where the perils and threats facing the world are multifold, and where the forces capable of holding those perils and threats in check are either absent, defeated, or quickly dwindling. It creates a need for new heroes to exist, and the gravity of that need is present and consistent from their first adventure to the conclusion of their epic destiny.
Mystra's Fall, Szass Tam's rise to power, Netheril's resurgent empire, etc all serve to make the realms a more dangerous place populated with many foes, and fewer places for the common folk to turn to for protection.
By contrast a scenario like the one you present--with an empowered Mystra, a greatly weakened Shar, a nearly-dead Cyric, and a great number of evil mages rendered powerless--gives us a world that is cathartically nice to read about but which is comparitively less appealing to play in. The potential threats to the world are diminished from the outset, and the old guard heroes are still presumably in the foreground.
To put it more concisely, as a PC I would personally find it far more rewarding to have the potential to kill Cyric, imprison Shar, and become the new Mystra MYSELF--rather than read about it in an opening alternative prologue of a campaign.
Along that same idea, I think many people who reacted negatively to the various transitioning stories--like the Haunted Lands, the Lady Penitent, the Twilight War, AND the murder of Mystra--somehow missed the point. In that these stories are supposed to be the MOTIVATION for your PCs to go out and defeat Netheril, Szass Tam, Lolth, Cyric, etc and reshape the realms through your own epic story. They are not presented to empower evil forever in the status quo, but rather as the exposition for a story that you will shape through gameplay, and during which those evil forces will be defeated. |
Edited by - The Simbul on 04 Sep 2009 04:39:13 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 09:03:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
--- Snipped for Brevity ---
They are not presented to empower evil forever in the status quo, but rather as the exposition for a story that you will shape through gameplay, and during which those evil forces will be defeated.
While I hated to hear what you just said, I find that I was convinced by your argument. It helps me understand why possibly some of the changes were made the way they were. I still don't agree with the entirety of the Shattered Realms, but what was done to the deities and NPCs does make sense now. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 11:26:16
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| That was very well said. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 14:58:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
While I understand your sentiment for wishing to have an alternative scenario, I feel you miss the point somewhat.
In order to have a heroic saga there needs to be conflict, and the burden of resolving that conflict must fall squarely upon the heroes. In the context of a story, you have a brief exposition of tranquility--which is then disrupted by conflict, usually by an unstoppable event or an empowered villain. The more epic the saga the greater the conflict must be. In the case of the 4E campaign setting, they have skipped the tranquility aspect by introducing the conflict head on, and in turn have spared the DM the trouble of finding out a way to disrupt the equilibrium of good and evil in the world to facilitate an adventure.
The setting presented in the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide is one where the perils and threats facing the world are multifold, and where the forces capable of holding those perils and threats in check are either absent, defeated, or quickly dwindling. It creates a need for new heroes to exist, and the gravity of that need is present and consistent from their first adventure to the conclusion of their epic destiny.
Mystra's Fall, Szass Tam's rise to power, Netheril's resurgent empire, etc all serve to make the realms a more dangerous place populated with many foes, and fewer places for the common folk to turn to for protection.
By contrast a scenario like the one you present--with an empowered Mystra, a greatly weakened Shar, a nearly-dead Cyric, and a great number of evil mages rendered powerless--gives us a world that is cathartically nice to read about but which is comparitively less appealing to play in. The potential threats to the world are diminished from the outset, and the old guard heroes are still presumably in the foreground.
To put it more concisely, as a PC I would personally find it far more rewarding to have the potential to kill Cyric, imprison Shar, and become the new Mystra MYSELF--rather than read about it in an opening alternative prologue of a campaign.
Along that same idea, I think many people who reacted negatively to the various transitioning stories--like the Haunted Lands, the Lady Penitent, the Twilight War, AND the murder of Mystra--somehow missed the point. In that these stories are supposed to be the MOTIVATION for your PCs to go out and defeat Netheril, Szass Tam, Lolth, Cyric, etc and reshape the realms through your own epic story. They are not presented to empower evil forever in the status quo, but rather as the exposition for a story that you will shape through gameplay, and during which those evil forces will be defeated.
I'm not so sure he missed any point. He's still got plenty of opportunities for bad guys to do evil things. Sure, in this alternative spin, Cyric and Shar get nerfed -- but so does Kelemvor, and Myrkul and Bhaal are back. And the removal of the Shadow Weave only affects its users -- I think you overestimate their numbers. Even without the Shadow Weave, there's still plenty of evil mages to go around.
Jakk's spin on things doesn't remove any evil from the setting -- it just shifts it around a bit. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 19:33:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
Along that same idea, I think many people who reacted negatively to the various transitioning stories--like the Haunted Lands, the Lady Penitent, the Twilight War, AND the murder of Mystra--somehow missed the point. In that these stories are supposed to be the MOTIVATION for your PCs to go out and defeat Netheril, Szass Tam, Lolth, Cyric, etc and reshape the realms through your own epic story. They are not presented to empower evil forever in the status quo, but rather as the exposition for a story that you will shape through gameplay, and during which those evil forces will be defeated.
So why present these things you'd never want to happen to the world as the actual game-world and not as possible campaign scenarios/plots/hooks? |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 02:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
<chop for brevity>Along that same idea, I think many people who reacted negatively to the various transitioning stories--like the Haunted Lands, the Lady Penitent, the Twilight War, AND the murder of Mystra--somehow missed the point. In that these stories are supposed to be the MOTIVATION for your PCs to go out and defeat Netheril, Szass Tam, Lolth, Cyric, etc and reshape the realms through your own epic story. They are not presented to empower evil forever in the status quo, but rather as the exposition for a story that you will shape through gameplay, and during which those evil forces will be defeated.
I'm not so sure he missed any point. He's still got plenty of opportunities for bad guys to do evil things. Sure, in this alternative spin, Cyric and Shar get nerfed -- but so does Kelemvor, and Myrkul and Bhaal are back. And the removal of the Shadow Weave only affects its users -- I think you overestimate their numbers. Even without the Shadow Weave, there's still plenty of evil mages to go around.
Jakk's spin on things doesn't remove any evil from the setting -- it just shifts it around a bit.
Thanks for introducing my reply, Wooly... and rest assured, there's far more evil afoot than has been mentioned above. For instance, Soneillon is still around in Impiltur, and she's up to her old tricks. Briefly, Imbrar II dies under mysterious circumstances, and the ending of the Heltharn dynasty male line undoes Soargar's wards keeping Soneillon out of Impiltur. Soneillon returns to Impiltur in secret, and her consort Imbrar I returns more openly, his undead status and changes in appearance permanently masked by powerful magic that also conceals his new alignment. He claims to have been frozen in ice after he and many of his forces were swept away in an avalanche, and through some sort of magic (he knows not what) did not die. He has been telling himself this for so long that he believes it to be true, and truth-seeking magic including zone of truth will always fail to reveal the truth of this matter. Imbrar claims the throne by right of blood, and Soneillon continues her corruptive whisperings, which are much more powerful now with her return to Impiltur, turning many worshippers of the Triad toward evil. Having strong misgivings about the sudden return of a long-vanished king, the Impilturan branch of the Obarskyr family quietly slips out of the country, eventually settling in Tantras. (I have my own reasons for doing this, which will become relevant during play, whenever my campaign finally starts up.)
That's a sample of what I have in store. There's also the matter of those thirteen pyramids in Ascore, now under the control of the reborn Netherese empire, and whatever nameless great evil they are imprisoning, and the evil black pyramid in the ruins of Karse (for which I also have some ideas). Rest assured, there's more than enough evil to go around without taking a hatchet to the map and the Chosen. If you don't like the Chosen, 4E works. If you like having a previous era's heroes still around, keep them balanced by something. I have a few things in the works that keep the Chosen of Mystra too busy to micromanage the Realms, not to mention all the things that already exist in canon that accomplish this. By the time the Chosen have time to deal with the big threats relevant to the PCs, the PCs will be powerful enough to deal with them on their own (possibly with some consultation, but certainly with no overt involvement of any "big-name" NPCs). The last thing a big fish learns is that there's always a bigger fish.  On which note, I may keep the Abolethic Sovereignty as well... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 05 Sep 2009 20:14:24 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 03:22:15
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I like that.
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 03:27:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
To put it more concisely, as a PC I would personally find it far more rewarding to have the potential to kill Cyric, imprison Shar, and become the new Mystra MYSELF--rather than read about it in an opening alternative prologue of a campaign.
I wanted to respond to this particular point separately. That's precisely why I didn't kill any major deities outright. (I've always considered Kelemvor something of a "wanna-be" and never agreed with his apotheosis.) The moral of the story of the Dark Three and their encounters with Borem, Haask, and finally Jergal* is that if you want divinity, you need to seize it for yourself, not simply prove your worth for an open position as if it were a job interview.
quote:
* - I don't recall the detailed source for the story of Borem, and I don't have the links handy for "Ironfang Keep" by Brian R. James or "Knucklebones, Skull Bowling, and the Empty Throne"; if another scribe can help me out, it would be greatly appreciated.
Part of me wants to go right back to 1356 and overwrite the Time of Troubles, or at least the mortal ascensions to divinity arising therefrom, altogether; the Dark Three ascended to godhood through ambition and persistence  , while Midnight, Cyric, and Kelemvor ascended largely by being in the right place at the right time  . I would never allow PCs to attain divinity via the latter path, which any case of "the position is open" amounts to, imho, regardless of the difficulty of the path. If seizing the divine spark* is not a requirement, then we end up with people like Cyric, Kelemvor, and Midnight becoming gods by accident (which is, essentially, what happened; they did not set out on a quest for divinity, so apotheosis was simply a happy accident for all three of them, even though we're talking about two separate incidents).
* - As was done in the exploits of the Dark Three against Borem, and possibly other forgotten demipowers; the names "Maram of the Great Spear," "Camnod the Unseen," and "Tyranthraxus the Flamed One" are also found in association with Bane's ascension to divinity; see this scroll.
 Apologies for the delay in posting this; I had to research some esoteric Realmslore (a terrible chore for us, I know).
Edit: And then I didn't finish my sentence. I must have been tired. The sentence is finished now. I moved the lengthy parenthetical comment to a footnote to make the sentence more legible. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 05 Sep 2009 19:59:36 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 03:46:22
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
Nice job Jakk.
I also wanna read a story about what heroes could've done to PREVENT the Spellplague! Surely faithful priests, high-level magic users, sages of Candlekeep (in Toril, not earth!), and good-hearted adventurers and laymen would've gotten visions of what was laying up ahead for them, and what they could possibly do or ordain to prevent it!
As The Simbul says, those are stories best played out rather than simply told. My big beef with the whole thing is, WotC gave PCs a chance to prevent whatever was going on, then turned around and said, "okay, ten years later, it all happens anyway." That was what got my knickers in a twist, along with the entire idea of being told what I wanted. I know what I want, and most of what we got wasn't it. That rant's been done to death, and I'm done with it.
In a way, I guess, The Simbul made my original point about the Spellplague; if there's no chance for the PCs to change what's going to happen, then why should the PCs bother trying? But that's a question asked in hindsight, and I know and appreciate that fact.  It doesn't mean I have to be happy about the answer, or even accept it. Anyway, I've blathered on for long enough on this matter, both here and elsewhere in these halls. I will never be satisfied with the Spellplague as published, simply because it (and events leading up to it, such as the deaths of Khelben and Halaster) would throw more spanners/wrenches into the works of what I have planned for my campaign than an army of marilith mechanics. Therefore, I needed to reimagine it, or discard it altogether. Since there are elements of 4E rules that I like and am working to incorporate, I liked the idea of something happening... just not the same thing that the designers thought I'd like.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 03:56:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
--- Snipped for Brevity ---
They are not presented to empower evil forever in the status quo, but rather as the exposition for a story that you will shape through gameplay, and during which those evil forces will be defeated.
While I hated to hear what you just said, I find that I was convinced by your argument. It helps me understand why possibly some of the changes were made the way they were. I still don't agree with the entirety of the Shattered Realms, but what was done to the deities and NPCs does make sense now.
 What happened with Tyr and Helm will never make sense outside of a soap opera or tabloid television. I prefer to avoid both elements in my Realms. I have far less objection to the fate of Mystra than I do to the fate of Helm, particularly as worded in the GHotR.   I'm curious, though... in what way does it make sense to you? (I'm speaking here of events strictly limited to the deities, with the exception of the Cyric/Shar/Mystra events; all other aspects of the Spellplague and its circumstances, including the death of Mystra, I can see myself working with as written if necessary... but saying that particular storyline rubs me the wrong way is insufficient; it does not rub at all, but rather grabs and twists.) Anyway, I'm typing too much again. The floor is yours, Kyrene (and anyone else who chooses to chime in on any aspect of this scroll). |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 05 Sep 2009 03:59:52 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2009 : 10:20:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I'm curious, though... in what way does it make sense to you? (I'm speaking here of events strictly limited to the deities, with the exception of the Cyric/Shar/Mystra events;
If I understand your question correctly, and bearing in mind your exclusion:
My agreement with The Simbul's counter-argument stemmed not so much from what was done (or indeed how it was done), but rather as to a possible reason for why it was done. Like you I don't agree with the celestial soap-opera, or goodness knows how many other (may I say 'idiotic') things that befell both the deities and NPCs of the Realms. I do agree that a Realms without Mystra, or Helm, or any effective Chosen, or Neverwinter (or pick your own favourite bugbear) makes sense to allow for the heroism of the few to shine the brighter.
Let me take a side trek into Middle Earth. Would Frodo and Sam's struggles into and through Mordor been as valiant (and all the more so because they were the 'little folk') if Gandalf had simply asked the Eagles to whisk them from the Shire to Mount Doom for a timely dropping of the Ring before its evil could even have affected Frodo? Would Theoden's death, or Eowyn's vanquishing of the leader of the Nine, or Aragorn’s gamble on a last stand even have happened or have been required then? Would any of The Lord of the Rings have been required if Sauron had not been the ‘last god standing’? Would Boromir have died if his father had not been so driven by despair due to Sauron’s apparent ascendancy?
The point is: heroics can better be accomplished in the absence, or assumed absence, of ‘light’, and without the swooping in of the old guard of supermen (read Chosen, et al). How the 4E Realms arrived at its current state is something I will never agree with, but... Having a dark and shattered (broken) Realms where it seems that so much injustice is at the order of the day does make sense. There are so many more wrongs to be put right, that even the simple putting down of an orc raid, like a single candle in a darkened stadium, shines all the more brightly.
Or do we all just play in the Realms for the loot and XP? If so, Sir Kijani Saffron might as well have never fled from Ormpur in the late thirteen-fifties, or been a thorn in Lord Nasher’s side during the seventies, or had loved and lost and fought and fled until his dying breath. Here’s hoping that one of his descendants will have the courage and determination to take up his twin short swords and go and right some wrongs in the post-Spellplague Realms. If not, all that had come before (even the ‘idiocy’) will have been for nothing. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2009 : 15:11:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
The point is: heroics can better be accomplished in the absence, or assumed absence, of ‘light’, and without the swooping in of the old guard of supermen (read Chosen, et al).
While that is true, it's also partially based on a false assumption. The Chosen didn't take care of every single situation that popped up -- even if they were inclined to do so (which they weren't), there's only so many things that a dozen people with their own responsibilities can do in a world of millions.
Reasoning that a handful of people can do everything because they're powerful is ridiculous. If Superman stops a crime in Metropolis once, does that mean the city no longer needs a police force? If he stops some random whacko from trying to take over the world, does that mean that every nation can immediately disband their military? Just how much do we think one person can do?
The Chosen are not the Justice League of the Realms. They never were intended to be that; it wasn't even intended that they'd be all that prominent. The problem was that WotC and TSR before them decided that they had to keep putting them in the spotlight, and this led to the mistaken impression that the Chosen were everywhere, doing everything.
WotC was trying to solve a problem that didn't really exist. The perception of it existed because of their actions... And let's face it, it's going to happen again. Any time a character enjoys any kind of prominence, WotC shifts all the focus to them, and makes sure we get more and more and more of them. It's only a matter of time until some author creates another divinely-favored semimortal champion, and then every other author will either create their own, or have to account for the actions of the others. And then what? |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 08:17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
The point is: heroics can better be accomplished in the absence, or assumed absence, of ‘light’, and without the swooping in of the old guard of supermen (read Chosen, et al).
While that is true, it's also partially based on a false assumption. The Chosen didn't take care of every single situation that popped up -- even if they were inclined to do so (which they weren't), there's only so many things that a dozen people with their own responsibilities can do in a world of millions.
Well, I did write "read Chosen" (and here I include the likes of Erevis Cale and other non-Mystran 'chosen') ", et al". I see 'champions' like King Azoun IV, or Jarlaxle/Entreri, or Drizzt and company, or any others of their power level, as these "others" that had always been protecting the weak in the Realms.quote:
Reasoning that a handful of people can do everything because they're powerful is ridiculous.
I agree, and that was and never has been my personal opinion, or belief.quote:
The Chosen are not the Justice League of the Realms. They never were intended to be that; it wasn't even intended that they'd be all that prominent. The problem was that WotC and TSR before them decided that they had to keep putting them in the spotlight, and this led to the mistaken impression that the Chosen were everywhere, doing everything.
Of that I am well aware. You are preaching to the choir here, Wooly. quote:
WotC was trying to solve a problem that didn't really exist. The perception of it existed because of their actions... And let's face it, it's going to happen again. Any time a character enjoys any kind of prominence, WotC shifts all the focus to them, and makes sure we get more and more and more of them. It's only a matter of time until some author creates another divinely-favored semimortal champion, and then every other author will either create their own, or have to account for the actions of the others. And then what?
That is entirely possible. However, for better or worse, WotC has gotten rid of their "chosen" mistake (for the most part, as cash cows like Drizzt will never die) with the 4E Realms. Much as we can argue about the unfairness of who was kept and who wasn't, the Realms is a much darker place post-Spellplague. And that is an environment where those that choose to (the players of PCs that are not just in it for the powergaming or whatever other shallow reasons) can go ahead and right an awful lot of wrongs, including those things that WotC seems to have cocked up.
Granted, it would have to be LFR based adventures to ever have a hope of being canonized, but even if it's solely a Friday night home campaign, will anybody have any less fun doing it? For the first time since the absolute stench of the Spellplague hit me, am I excited enough to contemplate doing something in the fifteenth century DR. I can think of a whole lot of things a dedicated follower of Tempus would like to set right in this dark Realms as it stands now. And I can even do it with 1E rules if I so choose to. |
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SeeDiGi
Acolyte
Bermuda
34 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 17:15:12
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| The SP is an interesting idea and I think it could work and more people like it if a lot of the official story changed. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 18:10:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
That is entirely possible. However, for better or worse, WotC has gotten rid of their "chosen" mistake (for the most part, as cash cows like Drizzt will never die) with the 4E Realms.
The point I'm making, though, is that they created the problem the first time around by chasing money. I don't see that anything is different now, so I fully expect the problem to be repeated. It will obviously not be repeated with the Chosen of Mystra, but sooner or later, some similar character will be created, focused on ad naseum, and then they'll do more of them, until we're right back where we started.
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Much as we can argue about the unfairness of who was kept and who wasn't, the Realms is a much darker place post-Spellplague. And that is an environment where those that choose to (the players of PCs that are not just in it for the powergaming or whatever other shallow reasons) can go ahead and right an awful lot of wrongs, including those things that WotC seems to have cocked up.
I disagree that that is an improvement. I do not like the darker feel; it reminds me more of Shadowrun than anything else -- and Shadowrun without cyberpunk is just not interesting. With the Unseen, the Shades, the Zhents, the Cult of the Dragon, the Twisted Rune, the Hosttower of the Arcane, Thay, the churches of Shar, Cyric, and Bane, the Shadowmasters of Teflamm, the remaining phaerimm, the remaining Malaugrym, the Eldreth Veluuthra, and a host of other groups of nastybads and/or generally unneighborly folk, there was no need to make things darker. We had bad guys in plenty, and more than enough room for heroes.
Back on topic, I need to write up my own version of things, one of these days. My idea doesn't blow anything up, but does replace Mystra, lower the number of her Chosen, and get rid of the Shadow Weave. It draws mostly from existing bits of lore (not new stuff like another world noone knew about), and does some fun redistribution of divine portfolios and power. |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 18:24:24
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quote:
Back on topic, I need to write up my own version of things, one of these days. My idea doesn't blow anything up, but does replace Mystra, lower the number of her Chosen, and get rid of the Shadow Weave. It draws mostly from existing bits of lore (not new stuff like another world noone knew about), and does some fun redistribution of divine portfolios and power.
If you do it, post it here! I'm sure it would be most interesting to read, such as Jakk's version is. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 18:54:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Amarel_Derakanor
quote:
Back on topic, I need to write up my own version of things, one of these days. My idea doesn't blow anything up, but does replace Mystra, lower the number of her Chosen, and get rid of the Shadow Weave. It draws mostly from existing bits of lore (not new stuff like another world noone knew about), and does some fun redistribution of divine portfolios and power.
If you do it, post it here! I'm sure it would be most interesting to read, such as Jakk's version is.
Thank you. And yes, Wooly, do so posthaste! I am already looking forward to whatever Ashe has cooked up (are you reading this, Ashe? We (or at least I) want to see your take on things), and now you've given me something else to wait upon with eagerness. A year ago at this time, I never would have used such a phrase with respect to the Realms. Anyway, enough about the RW past. (We can never have enough Realms history, imho.) Ashe, Wooly, let's see those Spellplague rewrites! NOW! Er... um... that is, as soon as possible, given RW unpredictability and such... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2009 : 19:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I'm curious, though... in what way does it make sense to you? (I'm speaking here of events strictly limited to the deities, with the exception of the Cyric/Shar/Mystra events;
If I understand your question correctly, and bearing in mind your exclusion:
My agreement with The Simbul's counter-argument stemmed not so much from what was done (or indeed how it was done), but rather as to a possible reason for why it was done. Like you I don't agree with the celestial soap-opera, or goodness knows how many other (may I say 'idiotic') things that befell both the deities and NPCs of the Realms. I do agree that a Realms without Mystra, or Helm, or any effective Chosen, or Neverwinter (or pick your own favourite bugbear) makes sense to allow for the heroism of the few to shine the brighter.
<chop>
I must admit, I can agree with you on there being a good reason to make big changes, even if the changes that were made defied all logic in their execution. However, my approach would have been to move the action and spotlight to another continent. We have Anchorome, Katashaka, and Osse as yet unexplored, and indeed unexploded as of 1375, so why not keep timeline continuity and simply shift the geographical focus? The old lore will still be irrelevant except as it makes brief mention of these places, and the "superheroes" are out of the way too (busy as they are with, apparently, policing all of Faerun ). But then, as I like to say, common sense isn't. I have a theory as to why the existing path was taken, but I won't go into that here (or, indeed, anywhere on the public boards; there's been enough of that).
Anyway, I need to go to work, and I've said my piece. Thank you, Kyrene (and The Simbul), for your candor and insight on this matter, and for making me think further. Thinking has a calming effect, and I think we've reached a point with the new Realms that more people are engaging in it more often. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 03:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Amarel_Derakanor
quote:
Back on topic, I need to write up my own version of things, one of these days. My idea doesn't blow anything up, but does replace Mystra, lower the number of her Chosen, and get rid of the Shadow Weave. It draws mostly from existing bits of lore (not new stuff like another world noone knew about), and does some fun redistribution of divine portfolios and power.
If you do it, post it here! I'm sure it would be most interesting to read, such as Jakk's version is.
Thank you. And yes, Wooly, do so posthaste! I am already looking forward to whatever Ashe has cooked up (are you reading this, Ashe? We (or at least I) want to see your take on things), and now you've given me something else to wait upon with eagerness. A year ago at this time, I never would have used such a phrase with respect to the Realms. Anyway, enough about the RW past. (We can never have enough Realms history, imho.) Ashe, Wooly, let's see those Spellplague rewrites! NOW! Er... um... that is, as soon as possible, given RW unpredictability and such...
I'll try to set some time aside this week to get started on it.
Keep in mind, though, that my idea is not an alternate take on the Sellplague -- it's more of a replacement event. Though I don't see any need to replace Mystra or cull the ranks of her Chosen, my objective was to come up with a way to do exactly that, without a setting-wide catastrophe. So it does that, gets rid of a couple things I found problematic, and puts a deity I feel has been unfairly diminished back into a better spot. The only real sticking point I've not resolved is Velsharoon... |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 05:56:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll try to set some time aside this week to get started on it.
Keep in mind, though, that my idea is not an alternate take on the Sellplague -- it's more of a replacement event. Though I don't see any need to replace Mystra or cull the ranks of her Chosen, my objective was to come up with a way to do exactly that, without a setting-wide catastrophe. So it does that, gets rid of a couple things I found problematic, and puts a deity I feel has been unfairly diminished back into a better spot. The only real sticking point I've not resolved is Velsharoon...
Heh... I actually like what happened with Velsharoon and The Simbul in canon 4E, if I'm remembering it correctly.
[edited to include quote of original post due to page break] |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 09 Sep 2009 05:58:40 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 08:51:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The point I'm making, though, is that they created the problem the first time around by chasing money. I don't see that anything is different now, so I fully expect the problem to be repeated.
Oh, fully agreed. My point was, as it stands now, at least they seem to have swept most of their self created problem out the door with 4E. I have no faith that it will remain outdoors for long though. quote:
I disagree that that is an improvement. I do not like the darker feel; it reminds me more of Shadowrun than anything else -- and Shadowrun without cyberpunk is just not interesting. With the Unseen, the Shades, the Zhents, the Cult of the Dragon, the Twisted Rune, the Hosttower of the Arcane, Thay, the churches of Shar, Cyric, and Bane, the Shadowmasters of Teflamm, the remaining phaerimm, the remaining Malaugrym, the Eldreth Veluuthra, and a host of other groups of nastybads and/or generally unneighborly folk, there was no need to make things darker. We had bad guys in plenty, and more than enough room for heroes.
Well, you'll have to admit that all those nastybads you just named were rather inneficient in canon lore. Sure, they were there to pit your PCs against as a DM, but I always got the feeling that they (as groups) would surge and fail for the most part. Or even if they weren't failing, their influence was low-key enough or localized enough not to matter much.
But, again, most of this debate (if it even is one) stems from personal taste more than anything. I was never on any debate team, but I do recall something about personal opinions not being a good way to put a point accross.
Wooly and Jakk, I therefore bow out of this for now, as my position on 4E Realms is just as complex and ever shifting as your own, and I happen to agree with you two far too often to boot. |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 12:08:19
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quote:
I'll try to set some time aside this week to get started on it.
Groovy! |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 18:38:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Well, you'll have to admit that all those nastybads you just named were rather inneficient in canon lore. Sure, they were there to pit your PCs against as a DM, but I always got the feeling that they (as groups) would surge and fail for the most part. Or even if they weren't failing, their influence was low-key enough or localized enough not to matter much.
Well, if you'll recall TSR's old ethics guidelines, the nastybads had to be bumbling dolts who couldn't actually accomplish anything. Then, with the introduction of 3E and the Shades, this was briefly extended to all NPC organizations, if you'll recall how that played out (and if you don't, I'm sure Wooly can provide a refresher; I know that's one of his pet peeves). As far as the limited sphere of influence, I can't really argue with you there; there are no real Faerun-spanning evil organizations with the slightest bit of cohesion; the Cult of the Dragon is everywhere, but their cells are busily undermining each other as much as anything else.
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
But, again, most of this debate (if it even is one) stems from personal taste more than anything. I was never on any debate team, but I do recall something about personal opinions not being a good way to put a point accross.
Wooly and Jakk, I therefore bow out of this for now, as my position on 4E Realms is just as complex and ever shifting as your own, and I happen to agree with you two far too often to boot.
I don't really think of it as a debate; more of a discussion of differing opinions. Debates can get nasty; I see no danger of that happening with this scroll, particularly while a mod is taking part in the discussion. And I understand your inclination to bow out; discussions are much more interesting when disagreement is involved. However, I hope you'll continue to follow the scroll and see where it goes; I'm rather interested in its path myself. Thanks for your contributions. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2009 : 15:38:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I disagree that that is an improvement. I do not like the darker feel; it reminds me more of Shadowrun than anything else -- and Shadowrun without cyberpunk is just not interesting. With the Unseen, the Shades, the Zhents, the Cult of the Dragon, the Twisted Rune, the Hosttower of the Arcane, Thay, the churches of Shar, Cyric, and Bane, the Shadowmasters of Teflamm, the remaining phaerimm, the remaining Malaugrym, the Eldreth Veluuthra, and a host of other groups of nastybads and/or generally unneighborly folk, there was no need to make things darker. We had bad guys in plenty, and more than enough room for heroes.
I agree. It's all a matter of presentation of the state of things - changing that alone would have been sufficient, changing the state of things (on such a scale at least) was not really necessary to create a darker feel.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Back on topic, I need to write up my own version of things, one of these days. My idea doesn't blow anything up, but does replace Mystra, lower the number of her Chosen, and get rid of the Shadow Weave. It draws mostly from existing bits of lore (not new stuff like another world noone knew about), and does some fun redistribution of divine portfolios and power.
That sounds very interesting indeed - looking forward to that! |
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An Alternate Take on the Spellplague...
