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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2009 : 19:25:45
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I'm looking for information regarding the Northmen kingdoms mentioned in the GHotR Moonshae supplement: Gnarhelm, Olafstaad, and Sunderstaad. I don't (think I) have access to FR2 atm... wait a minute... scratch that; it was among the last batch of PDFs I bought before Wizbro closed off that stream of revenue for themselves. 
In any case, I'm also looking for thoughts/suspicions regarding the origin of the Northmen/Illuskans... I like the proposal that the island (or 2) to the NW of Faerun / N of Anchorome (see the Toril map on page 231 of the 3E FRCS) is a possible original Illuskan homeland (I think that's Markustay's thought originally, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm mistaken). Anything anybody has, whether homebrew or canon, is appreciated. Thanks! 
Edit: Fixed geographical reference. 
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Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 01 Sep 2009 03:17:39
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2009 : 21:30:08
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Think the North mentions an ancient, possibly pre-Sundering civilization of humans, imagine it like Thule in that pseudohistorical Nazi-Atlantis myths.
In my homebrew Ragnarok actually happened long ago, and Tyr wasn't an interloper from Earth, but a survivor of this civilization
MT mentioned some theory about Posi (sp?) people from Maztica, but I don't remember. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2009 : 23:14:18
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http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080110
-(scroll down) it says in -3100 DR, that the Illuskan/Northmen came from the west, thus its likely they're descendants from Eaerlann, Delzoun, and possibly even Netheril and beyond!
-467 DR says that immigrants from Tethyr settle among the Ffolk. While that's not directly involved w/the Northmen, it could give you the backdrop of a story in your home campaign
(click translate this page on the 3rd hit)
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Gnarhelm&btnG=Search&meta=
This page may be useful.
A google search for Gnarhelm shows that Candlekeep Compendium IX may be of some help.
(click translate this page)
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Olafstaad+site:vreemdgenoeg.nl/wiki&btnG=Search&meta=
It appears that Olafstaad and Sunderstaad are just the names of cities.
As for my homebrew campaign, I still have Queen Alicia Kendrick reigning over all the Moonshaes, but I've added that their army/navy has gotten much stronger, comprising of Northmen and Ffolk of different races and classes. W/the stability that comes from a united front, trade w/the Moonshae Isles has become that much easier, thus the isles are that much more prosperous, and they've strong trade relationships w/all the economic powers along the Sword Coast, particularly Waterdeep.
But unbeknownst to the Queen and her main staff, a number of army, navy, and trade officials are trying to have an unfair monopoly on the trade routes and of certain goods, unto unrightfully branding some legit seafaring captains and crews thereof as pirates. The captains they target are those w/large ships, take odd jobs/assignments, and aren't affiliated w/any nation or city/state's trade board or gov't, and aren't affiliated w/any merc company, priakos, or caravan company.
Thus those vessels that they captain aren't allowed to dock at any ports in the Moonshaes, or any of the mainstream ports along the Sword Coast (save Athkatla, of course ), for fear of being arrested, stripped of all thier goods, thrown in prison w/o a fair trial, or murdered. |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 01 Sep 2009 01:19:03 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2009 : 03:09:28
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Thanks for the ideas, Quale and bladeinAmn!
Quale: Could that ancient civilization be the same one responsible for building the Citadel of the Raven? 
bladeinAmn: I'll check out CC IX; I have them all downloaded, just didn't think to look there. 
Edit: bladeinAmn: If they're coming from the west, that would mean from points west of Ruathym, as they settle Ruathym in -3100 DR and establish Illusk in -3000 DR, so they got to Ruathym first; that would support the idea that they are from (a) Anchorome or (b) the big islands to the north; see page 231 of the 3E FRCS. That's the next part of Toril I'll be working on, history-wise at least. I have no cartographic talents at all.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 01 Sep 2009 03:25:43 |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2009 : 03:43:27
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And I have no direction at all! When the GHotR Moonshae supplement said west, I immediately thought "West" as in Western Heartlands and Western Faerun!
Well looks like they're from Anchorome, the big islands to the north, or Laerakond (Returned Abeir, if it was around back in those years before 0 DR). |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2009 : 03:59:59
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Depending on how you use Laerakond and whether or not you even use (a) the Spellplague and (b) the whole "Abeir-Toril twin worlds" idea, there are all kinds of possibilities for everything; that's the only thing I really like about the 4E Realms, apart from Laerakond itself.
I like the big islands as the original Northmen homeland, myself. If they'd been from a big continent like canon Anchorome, they'd have no reason to go sailing as widely as they did... unless they were trying to get away from something big and nasty on the mainland...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2009 : 05:45:38
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| Well in Baldur's Gate 1-Tales of the Sword Coast, they do hint at there being werewolves in Anchorome. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2009 : 07:08:57
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Funny you'd mention that... the PC genealogy I'm working on is for a pair of brothers with the last name "von Wolfenstein" (about as German as you can get), who I'd decided back when they were created (in the early days of 2E) were descended from the Uthgardt. Then I learned that there was a Grey Wolf tribe that were werewolves. When I finally got started on the genealogy itself earlier this year, I was playing with name meanings ("Wolfenstein" translates loosely to "stone wolf"; if any of our German scribes would like to give me a more precise translation, they are very welcome to do so) and I realized that "Wulfstan" was basically the same thing in Old English, which might as well be Old Norse as far as the similarities between the languages are concerned (remember that the Uthgardt are descended from Ruathym Northmen, which I did not know when I originally created the PCs in question). So I created (in name only; no stats) Wulfstan Uthgarsson, the founder of the Grey Wolf tribe. During his son's tenure as chief, the tribe is attacked by evil werewolves (yes, there are other kinds in my Realms), who take over leadership of the tribe, who are now all evil werewolves (this part is canon). In my Realms, the chief's family (including his son) and a few other tribe members escape thanks in part to his self-sacrifice, and the family abolishes the patronymic, keeping the Wulfstansson surname. Over time, due to dialectic changes, this becomes Wolfstansson, then Wolfsteinsson, then Wolfensteinsson, then finally von Wolfenstein. And that is how I explained a German surname in the Realms. Of course, we had German (and Italian) surnames in the Realms before this, thanks to the town council of Phlan in "Ruins of Adventure" (if anyone besides me, Markustay, and maybe a couple of others remembers back that far). I've had far too much fun doing this, but I still have a thousand years of descendants/ancestors to come up with; I'm at the end of the 300's DR working my way down from Uthgar Gardolfsson (and yes, that is his canonical surname; some sources say Beorunna, but that's a corruption of "Bey of Runlatha" (the leader of the original Netherese refugees who intermarried with the Northmen to create the Uthgardt). At least, that's the best explanation I've found, and it's the one I'm using. 
Anyway, to keep this scroll on topic... werewolves in mainland Anchorome... hrm... ...that actually fits with another part of the family history, which I had explained as Wulfstan being the product of Uthgar's dalliance with a lythari Chosen of Selune/Sehanine (or both, if (like mine) your Realms still has both goddesses, at least in name); there are occasional werewolf births in the family line, including Wulfstan's son Wulfgrim ("fierce wolf"), and the name of the tribe and Wulfstan's name both come from his mother's granite-grey hair; Uthgar mistook her for a stone statue when he first saw her.
Okay, really back to topic this time... werewolves and Northmen... I can work with that. Definitely. I'm thinking both werewolves and wolfweres, with interspecies conflicts as well as alignment-related conflicts (because not all werewolves and wolfweres are evil in my Realms, just as not all werebears are good...)  Werebears... yes, definitely werebears as well. The other species get silly, though... and in my gaming group, "lycanthrope" refers only to werewolves... "lycos" is (Latinized; more properly "lykos") Greek for "wolf" and "anthropos" (I think) is "man" ("were" is Old English for "man" IIRC). Werebears are arctanthropes ("arctos"/"arktos" = "bear"). If someone with better knowledge of Greek than myself can come up with proper names for other werecreature types, I would love it. It's always bothered the perfectionist in me that D&D has used "lycanthrope" for were-creatures in general; I believe the proper general term is "therianthrope" (but, again, if someone with better Greek can correct me, please do so). Okay, language lesson over. Things like this happen in a gaming group with a DM with a M.A. in Classical Studies and another player (me) with a B.A. in Cognitive Science.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 01 Sep 2009 07:26:35 |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2009 : 08:43:04
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Hey man! Nothing is off-topic that you wrote here. It's your adventure, remember?
Wow that's quite a story and backstory and backstory again that you got cookin Jakk! Looks like you don't need anyone's homebrew help at all!
Yeah I believe that while werewolves and wolfweres have naturally extremely aggressive predatory dispositions, they too can be of any alignment they wish, if they work on resisting their tendancies. Vampires too! Your Realms and my Realms are both havin a Twilight party! Ha!
I just finished reading much of Brian R. James work in the Oct 2007 CK Compendium, and he touches on some of the islands way west of Faerun, even west of Evermeet, such as the isle of Eskember.
I think you should check it out b/c that could give you some added lore that you can homebrew some for the backstory of the history of your characters.
This is a good link as well: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0304D&L=REALMS-L&P=R5617&I=-3
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Edited by - bladeinAmn on 01 Sep 2009 08:54:02 |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2009 : 10:48:25
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Interesting post, and the most amazing is that the poster is non-Greek. Your post is correct, "Lycanthropy" (according to the Greek word) should be used only for Lycanthropes (Werewolves), while the Werebears should have the curse of "Arctanthropy".
"Therianthropy" (Therio/Thirio = Beast/Monster + Antropos = Human/Man)) could be a more suiting title for the curse of Were-beasts in general
while the term
"Zoanthropy" (Zoo anounced: Zo-o = Animal + Anthropos = Human/Man) could be a title for the curse of Were-animals in general
D&D is using the mythology of many countries, Greece among them, so there is a wild mix of cultures, names and stories, so sometimes its acceptable to simplify things :-)
However since you asked i will try to help you to name other Were-creatures, right now i cant think of anything else but i can ask people who knows better than me, while i will try to do a little research myself.
PS: As you aready said not all Werewolves (Lycanthropes) are evil, especially the group that allied with Selune. I always wanted to use them in my campaign, but i havent got the chance yet.
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2009 : 13:27:35
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| Interesting about the nomenclature. I know of therianthropes in D&D as "reverse lycanthropes" like the wolfwere and jackalwere through the Tome of Horrors (by Necromancer Games). Those two critters have been around since 1983 and 1977 in D&D; does anyone know if they were called therianthropes then? |
My DnD Links and Creations |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2009 : 15:29:34
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| Just as an aside on the whole werewolf thing... Sean K Reynolds has available on his site a wonderful $5 pdf called Curse of the Moon. It's a great resource for all things were. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2009 : 15:43:19
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| I'll add Van Richten's Guide to Werebeasts as well, as the definitive source for lycanthrope-lore. [Note, this particular tome was later reprinted in the first volume of Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2009 : 16:47:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'll add Van Richten's Guide to Werebeasts as well, as the definitive source for lycanthrope-lore. [Note, this particular tome was later reprinted in the first volume of Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium]
Another resource worth noting! Curse of the Moon is great from a rules standpoint, giving all sorts of variant rules and other ways of handling weres (one of SKR's stated reasons for writing it was that 3.x weres were broken, rule-wise, and he wanted to rectify that). Van Richten's Guide, on the other hand, goes more into the lore, and gives a lot of fun thematic options for weres (there are rules, too, supporting these options). All of the Van Richten's books are great resources. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Sep 2009 16:49:26 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2009 : 07:20:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Quale: Could that ancient civilization be the same one responsible for building the Citadel of the Raven?
It's possible, but Citadel of the Raven is maybe to far to the east for their influence. More likely it's a human civilization that served a draconic overlord (like in the story ''Traitors'' in Realms of the Elves). In my homebrew tough it's Talfir that built the fort (and the Ironfang Keep too with their shadow magic). In the old version of AGhotR there's a map c. -23 000 DR and it has Azuposi of Anchorome, Illuskans, and Talfir in the Western Heartlands. That part didn't get into canon. And the article about the Ironfang Keep made it a keep of the fire giant realm, Helligheim.
I searched google archives for that MT's post, now that wotc deleted it, found it:
'' The Azuposi are related to the Northmen of the Moonshaes (strange, I know, but at least it is original), and that should become canon as soon as the GHotR hits shelves. Therefore the Azu-posi are a lighter-skinned Amerind people who are decended from the Northmen but were seperated from their people when the Sundering occurred. Its interesting to note that more Northmen probably survived in Anchorome then the ones we know of on the islands.
I figure they were originally known as the Pozzi, and after the 'great flood' they were split into the Illu-posi (Island Pozzi) and the Azu-Posi (after mixing with local tribes of Azupaho ;) ). The people slowly migrated south, and their culture had been completely changed by the time they reached the border of Maztica.
Somewhere WAY up north there could be a surviving colony of the original Pozzi (Norse). The fact that Northmen Longhouses are VERY similar in construction to NE Amerind's Lodges gives some credence to this connection, and the further north one travels the more 'racially pure' the Pozzi people appear.
Its really the only way I can tie the two races together, but after 17,000 years the two would be nothing alike anymore. Perhaps the Wu-Haltai was but one tribe of some earlier people (the Haltai?), and another group was brought over by Monkey to save them from something (perhaps a sinking Island).
We could even call this 'lost tribe' the Azu-Haltai, to make it all fit.''
Tough the name ''Pozzi'' sounds a bit too Italian to me, maybe cause of the way Anchorome is pronounced. Also I think in the North it says that Ice Hunters and Reghedmen are older than Illuskans in that region, but that doesn't mean the Illuskans came from the south. There's too many possibilities for that long period of time. Personally consider this Illuskan homeland like Hyperborea, not Howard's but a nordic Atlantis. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2009 : 07:52:25
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by freyar
Interesting about the nomenclature. I know of therianthropes in D&D as "reverse lycanthropes" like the wolfwere and jackalwere through the Tome of Horrors (by Necromancer Games). Those two critters have been around since 1983 and 1977 in D&D; does anyone know if they were called therianthropes then?
IIRC (and it has been a while), "lycanthrope" has always been the catch-all term for people infected with the disease, which went under the catchall term "lycanthropy."
Relevant here is that the lycanthrope is a human (IIRC, at least at one time, *only* humans were susceptible) who changes into a beast. The jackalwere, et al. is, so to speak, the opposite. It's a beast that changes into a human. So they were not considered lycanthropes. I believe they were also incapable of passing on their shape-changing abilities, which again, differed from the lycanthrope.
Anyone more familiar feel free to correct my memory.
I think you've got it all correct there, capnvan... my beef with it is that lycanthrope translates literally from the Greek to "wolf-man" and therefore should be a term specific to werewolves. Now, of course, what do we call wolfweres and jackalweres (and werejackals, for that matter); hopefully our friendly scribes from Greece can give us some expanded "proper" terminology. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2009 : 08:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Marquant Volker
Interesting post, and the most amazing is that the poster is non-Greek. Your post is correct, "Lycanthropy" (according to the Greek word) should be used only for Lycanthropes (Werewolves), while the Werebears should have the curse of "Arctanthropy".
"Therianthropy" (Therio/Thirio = Beast/Monster + Antropos = Human/Man)) could be a more suiting title for the curse of Were-beasts in general
while the term
"Zoanthropy" (Zoo anounced: Zo-o = Animal + Anthropos = Human/Man) could be a title for the curse of Were-animals in general
D&D is using the mythology of many countries, Greece among them, so there is a wild mix of cultures, names and stories, so sometimes its acceptable to simplify things :-)
However since you asked i will try to help you to name other Were-creatures, right now i cant think of anything else but i can ask people who knows better than me, while i will try to do a little research myself.
PS: As you aready said not all Werewolves (Lycanthropes) are evil, especially the group that allied with Selune. I always wanted to use them in my campaign, but i havent got the chance yet.
Thanks, both for the praise and for the assistance, Marquant! I took four semesters of linguistics in college, and haven't used it for anything except gaming. (It was part of my degree in Cognitive Science, which would have been far more useful had I gone to graduate school.) Etymology (the study of words and their parts and origins, for those who don't know the term) is one of my (far too) large number of hobbies (which also includes genealogy), and yes, I have created my own language. It was a long time ago (back in high school) and had nothing to do with D&D. And yes, I enjoyed reading the Appendices, Unfinished Tales, The Silmarillion, and most of the follow-up writings more than I enjoyed reading The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. To return to the German nomenclature that I mentioned earlier, I am der Ubergeek... and proud of it! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2009 : 08:22:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
<chop>
I searched google archives for that MT's post, now that wotc deleted it, found it:
'' The Azuposi are related to the Northmen of the Moonshaes (strange, I know, but at least it is original), and that should become canon as soon as the GHotR hits shelves. Therefore the Azu-posi are a lighter-skinned Amerind people who are decended from the Northmen but were seperated from their people when the Sundering occurred. Its interesting to note that more Northmen probably survived in Anchorome then the ones we know of on the islands.
I figure they were originally known as the Pozzi, and after the 'great flood' they were split into the Illu-posi (Island Pozzi) and the Azu-Posi (after mixing with local tribes of Azupaho ;) ). The people slowly migrated south, and their culture had been completely changed by the time they reached the border of Maztica.
Somewhere WAY up north there could be a surviving colony of the original Pozzi (Norse). The fact that Northmen Longhouses are VERY similar in construction to NE Amerind's Lodges gives some credence to this connection, and the further north one travels the more 'racially pure' the Pozzi people appear.
Its really the only way I can tie the two races together, but after 17,000 years the two would be nothing alike anymore. Perhaps the Wu-Haltai was but one tribe of some earlier people (the Haltai?), and another group was brought over by Monkey to save them from something (perhaps a sinking Island).
We could even call this 'lost tribe' the Azu-Haltai, to make it all fit.''
Tough the name ''Pozzi'' sounds a bit too Italian to me, maybe cause of the way Anchorome is pronounced. Also I think in the North it says that Ice Hunters and Reghedmen are older than Illuskans in that region, but that doesn't mean the Illuskans came from the south. There's too many possibilities for that long period of time. Personally consider this Illuskan homeland like Hyperborea, not Howard's but a nordic Atlantis.
Interesting... is this MT's homebrew, or in any way canon? I'm trying to get away from too much "real world" culture creep in my Realms, apart from the Northmen (who just "belong" somehow; it couldn't have anything to do with me being 1/4 Icelandic, 1/8 Swedish, 1/8 Norwegian, and approximately 1/8 Norman French (originally Danish)... nah, that would be biased of me...) 
Seriously, the demise of Unther and Mulhorand is one of the few good things about late-3E storylines, and I'm eliminating the native inhabitants of Maztica as well with a well-placed and highly virulent plague, as I think I've already mentioned. Like Markustay, I just didn't like the idea of having Laerakond fall on them; I had it blow up Evermeet instead. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 02 Sep 2009 08:24:58 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2009 : 08:38:05
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Last post; I've separated them by specific topic to make it easier for others to respond to specific points. I've been thinking about the Northmen in this scenario, and I'm 99% sure that what happens is, they expand into Anchorome (whose native intelligent population is entirely non-human, I'm thinking dwarves, giants, orcs, goblinoids, ogres, dragons, and dragonborn - the 3E variety). Here, they ally with the dwarves, good giants, and good dragons, and forge a realm that is constantly at war with the evil dragons, orcs, ogres, goblinoids, and evil giants (who are just as busy warring against each other, or they would have conquered these upstarts long ago). Something very much like Tolkien's Rohan, but without horses... hrm... maybe they have a more distinctive sort of mount... griffons? I'd rather avoid the dragonrider thing... Anne McCaffrey did it the best, and Evermeet's dragonriders were part of why I decided to drop Laerakond on them.
I'll do some research on this one; I'd like it to be a creature prominent in Northmen/rw Norse myth; oh, and the rest of the Norse pantheon is present here too. I may have Tyr abandon Faerun and rejoin his fellows. My thought is, Ragnarok has come and gone, all of the gods have met their fates as prescribed by the Elder Edda, and Toril is the Norse gods' afterlife.
So, that's what I have so far. Thoughts? Ideas? Questions? Other scenarios for Anchorome in general? I'd love to hear it all; the more brainstorming we do on the boards, the more we all have to pick and choose from. 
Anyway, it's after midnight where I am, and I need sleep. G'night.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2009 : 08:43:32
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Okay, not quite the last post... I need to reply to Wooly and The Sage first.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'll add Van Richten's Guide to Werebeasts as well, as the definitive source for lycanthrope-lore. [Note, this particular tome was later reprinted in the first volume of Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium]
Another resource worth noting! Curse of the Moon is great from a rules standpoint, giving all sorts of variant rules and other ways of handling weres (one of SKR's stated reasons for writing it was that 3.x weres were broken, rule-wise, and he wanted to rectify that). Van Richten's Guide, on the other hand, goes more into the lore, and gives a lot of fun thematic options for weres (there are rules, too, supporting these options). All of the Van Richten's books are great resources.
I own all of them... and have none of them closer than a three-hour drive from me... and I don't drive.  I have probably a dozen bushels of gaming books (I measure them in bushels because I move them using apple boxes) still in my mom's basement, along with issues of Dragon going back to #51 and forward to #273 (I have all of my 3.x issues with me now), not to mention about a dozen sets of MasterMaze. I really, really, REALLY want to get all of that stuff moved to where I am, but I need a cube van, a driver, and (at least) gas money first. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 02 Sep 2009 08:44:49 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2009 : 09:35:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Interesting... is this MT's homebrew, or in any way canon? I'm trying to get away from too much "real world" culture creep in my Realms, apart from the Northmen (who just "belong" somehow; it couldn't have anything to do with me being 1/4 Icelandic, 1/8 Swedish, 1/8 Norwegian, and approximately 1/8 Norman French (originally Danish)... nah, that would be biased of me...)
Seriously, the demise of Unther and Mulhorand is one of the few good things about late-3E storylines, and I'm eliminating the native inhabitants of Maztica as well with a well-placed and highly virulent plague, as I think I've already mentioned. Like Markustay, I just didn't like the idea of having Laerakond fall on them; I had it blow up Evermeet instead.
Think MT just connected the dots with the Kara-Tur lore, this originally appeared in the old Grand History of the Realms pdf, but never made it to the canon version.
I'm a fan of the real world analogies, but they have to a much less obvious than Mulhorand and with a lot more twists. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 19:03:58
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| After re-reading a scroll in these halls about Evermeet and the Sundering, I'm contemplating a revision of my destruction of Evermeet... if anyone else has any suggestions based on the content of the linked scroll and other lore regarding Evermeet's creation, I'm open to them at the moment. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 23:46:37
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| I still like the old date, with the new one Attornash and all other ruins are erased from history. And there's the description of a great cataclysm in Evermeet, not gradual. I see my DM replied in that thread, he likes the new one . |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 03:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I still like the old date, with the new one Attornash and all other ruins are erased from history. And there's the description of a great cataclysm in Evermeet, not gradual. I see my DM replied in that thread, he likes the new one .
I'm assuming you meant Faerun in your post, not Evermeet. But I'm with you on this; I'm inclined to just ignore the date from LEoF. It's simpler. I'm still not sure what I'm going to change (if anything) about Evermeet's destruction, but I have some more thoughts about the Northmen (to return to my original topic):
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
<chop>... oh, and the rest of the Norse pantheon is present here too. I may have Tyr abandon Faerun and rejoin his fellows. My thought is, Ragnarok has come and gone, all of the gods have met their fates as prescribed by the Elder Edda, and Toril is the Norse gods' afterlife.
I'm expanding on this, thanks largely to my recent reading regarding Evermeet (and specifically the chronomancy involved). The Norse settlements in Greenland and North America whose people mysteriously vanished: they found portals to Toril (long since evaporated thanks to our world's loss of magic or simply forgotten), specifically to the northwestern islands of Faerun, and their gods came with them, but not all at once, and both the people and their deities were absorbed into the existing Northmen culture, which is substantially influenced by the ways of the newcomers (thanks in part to being similar in some respects already). Tyr is the first to arrive in the Realms, coming to Turmish in -247 DR with a host of (in my interpretation) einheriar, according to the GHotR (page 52). Tyr thus becomes known to the Realms at large early on, while the other Norse deities remain very insular, at least with respect to the existing human pantheon(s). The "Norse invasion" results in a minor shakeup of the planar structure, largely by an addition to the Great Tree, since Norse myth sees the universe as treelike in structure to begin with. Yes, I'm going to use 3E cosmology, at least in basic structure. It works with what I want to do with the Northmen, and that's my primary concern. I'll be borrowing from other cosmologies (including 4E and the Great Wheel), but the 3E FRCS Great Tree is going to be my starting point.
Anyway, I've said enough in this post; I should get back to the creative process.
Edit: Oh, and don't try to synch up the Earth-Toril timelines. Time flows differently between the two worlds, and not always in the same variation. Things are more interesting that way. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 06 Sep 2009 03:09:15 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 10:18:06
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I meant Evermeet, the novel. Only other chronomantical theory related to the Sundering I have is about Tintageer. Faerie is a strange reflection of the Prime and time flows much differently there. So when the elves blew up the super-continent, they caused the destruction of Tintageer in the past.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The "Norse invasion" results in a minor shakeup of the planar structure, largely by an addition to the Great Tree, since Norse myth sees the universe as treelike in structure to begin with. Yes, I'm going to use 3E cosmology, at least in basic structure. It works with what I want to do with the Northmen, and that's my primary concern. I'll be borrowing from other cosmologies (including 4E and the Great Wheel), but the 3E FRCS Great Tree is going to be my starting point.
In my homebrew during the times called The Age of the Third Sun and the Fourth not only the Norse gods and Ragnarok existed, but also Greek, Egyptian and other Earthly pantheons, now there are only a few remnants of them. like Tiarphe (daughter of Tyr, Siamorphe) and Nocs (Nyx-Shar), the rest perished in Titanomachies and similar. So they didn't arrive by portals, it's an alternate dimension of Earth sharing some similar patterns.
The Great Tree, in my cosmology is an inner plane of Derrwom, the place of Faerie and the elemental plane of wood, plants, and sorcery. From the fey point of view the multiverse is indeed shaped like a cosmic tree as their plane branches into all other realities, Northmen learned that through their shamanic interactions with spirits of the Norns. The real, objective cosmology is more Amber-like. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2009 : 20:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I meant Evermeet, the novel. Only other chronomantical theory related to the Sundering I have is about Tintageer. Faerie is a strange reflection of the Prime and time flows much differently there. So when the elves blew up the super-continent, they caused the destruction of Tintageer in the past.
Okay; I get it now. (Hint: That's why I like to italicise the book titles in my posts; or at least, I try to remember to do so.)
Interesting chronomancy going on there... because the sun (gold) elves and moon (silver) elves came to Toril after the destruction of Tintageer, according to the GHotR... so they come to Toril to give themselves a reason to come to Toril in the first place? I'd like to hear your take on how that works.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The Great Tree, in my cosmology is an inner plane of Derrwom, the place of Faerie and the elemental plane of wood, plants, and sorcery. From the fey point of view the multiverse is indeed shaped like a cosmic tree as their plane branches into all other realities, Northmen learned that through their shamanic interactions with spirits of the Norns. The real, objective cosmology is more Amber-like.
Ooh... I like the Amber connection... I had envisioned something similar as well, with Toril being the "one true world" of course... I'd love to sit down with Ed and discuss this, but ideally Roger would be in on it too, but he's not.
Anyway, as soon as I have something prepared, I'll send it along to The Sage for review. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2009 : 21:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
<snip>
In my homebrew Ragnarok actually happened long ago, and Tyr wasn't an interloper from Earth, but a survivor of this civilization
<snip>
I'm taking a similar approach in my cosmology; I've decided that the Norse pantheon is originally from the Northmen homeland in Toril (whose name I'm still undecided over, unless there's a canon source I'm missing), and sent lesser aspects to Earth when they found a similar civilization there; as the Norse converted to Christianity, the aspects "came home" to Toril. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2009 : 17:57:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Interesting chronomancy going on there... because the sun (gold) elves and moon (silver) elves came to Toril after the destruction of Tintageer, according to the GHotR... so they come to Toril to give themselves a reason to come to Toril in the first place? I'd like to hear your take on how that works.
It works like I said, what else to add, except that they don't know about it.
quote:
Ooh... I like the Amber connection... I had envisioned something similar as well, with Toril being the "one true world" of course... I'd love to sit down with Ed and discuss this, but ideally Roger would be in on it too, but he's not.
For me it's a combination of the Amber idea and R. Scott Bakker's the World, where the Prime is a point of maximum objectivity, where the tendencies of individual souls are helpless before circumstance (gods), the planes are diminished levels of the objectivity, abstract realities malleable to beliefs and wills, and some of Plato's and gnostic ideas (demiurge). Also humans are collectively psionic, subconsciously, an anomaly. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2009 : 04:01:26
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Okay, here's what I've been up to over the past two months (it being about a month and a half since my last posts here):
I took the idea of Anchorome or the islands to its north being a possible Illuskan homeland (I think from an annotated image file of the map of Toril from the 3E FRCS) and ran with it, based on the Northmen as described in past FR products and the pagan Norse pantheon from Earth.
Okay, so what took me a month and a half? The snowball effect hit when I started to develop the ancestry of Uthgar. I started with the Norse deities and the heroes descended therefrom, cobbling together the genealogies found in the Norse sagas that I had access to; the resulting product has enough subtrees both deliberately and accidentally mislocated (and inadvertently duplicated in several places, I suspect) that it's effectively a new creation, but it all starts with the Norse gods we are all familiar with. I'm going to have to do it all over again thanks to the aforementioned snowball effect, as I want to rebuild the tree as accurately reflecting the information in the sagas as possible (and I'm still trying to track down a few primary sources in order to be able to do that). This is primarily for RW reasons; both of my grandmothers were of Scandinavian ancestry (one Icelandic, the other Norwegian/Swedish) and I'm working on my own family tree as well. Yes, I find it very easy to get lost in genealogical forests, and why I'm so obsessed with the Cormyr lineage and Khelben's ancestors and descendants. At any rate, it's a project that will keep me busy until the gelugons start wishing for Infernal warming, which should be right around when we finally get to see the Cormyr lineage in all its glory.
In brief, the situation in my Realms re: the Norse gods is this: as noted before, Tyr is only an interloper in Faerun, and the Norse pantheon are interlopers to Earth from Toril. As a certain monotheistic religion became quite clearly dominant among their former followers in Scandinavia, the Earth-aspects packed up and went home, reuniting with their Torilian primaries. As I've mentioned before, the 3E tree cosmology fits perfectly with Yggdrasil; I've just tweaked it a bit to accommodate the Nine Worlds (and there are more than those nine, of course). All the planes that exist in canon 3.x Realms, exist in my rework; the Northmen just know them by different names. The biggest change from Norse myth as we know it is that Hel is not the daughter of Loki, but instead a much more primal power and the daughter of Ymir (the primeval giant, whose spine forms the Spine of the World mountains, in a twist on the original Norse creation myth).
I'm now starting to work on more specifically Realmslore-oriented background, now that (most of) the mythic genealogy is in place. I still haven't decided if Garm and Kezef are the same entity in my cosmology; I think it's probably easier to keep them as separate entities and ignore Kezef's involvement with the canon-Realmsian Tyr rather than to try and decide which entity's origin is the "correct" one. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 31 Oct 2009 04:07:24 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2009 : 00:21:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
<chop>...the Norse pantheon are interlopers to Earth from Toril. As a certain monotheistic religion became quite clearly dominant among their former followers in Scandinavia, the Earth-aspects packed up and went home, reuniting with their Torilian primaries.</chop>
I've decided to include the Finnish pantheon in this category too, after reading a very well-done piece on this site by nbnmare here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8951 I just wish we'd seen the next installment.
Also: Re: my earlier posts regarding the etymology of werecreatures: here's what I've come up with, now that I finally made the time to sit down with a good online translator for half an hour:
Werebadger - melineanthrope.
Werebat - not found.
Werebear - arctanthrope.
Wereboar - capranthrope.
Werecat - gatanthrope.
Werecrocodile - crocodilanthrope.
Weredog - kunanthrope or cynanthrope, depending on your Anglicisms; the English word "cynic" comes from the name of a Greek school of philosophy, and is etymologically connected; but next summer it will be ten years since I finished my degree, and I don't remember why a group of philosophers would want to be known as "dog-men". Edit: I just realised: they're cynics! They don't care what they're called, because they're always expecting the worst anyway.
Werelion - leionteianthrope.
Wererat - not found.
Wereraven - coracinanthrope.
Wereshark - acanthanthrope, carcharianthrope, selachanthrope.
Weretiger - tigranthrope.
Werewolf - lycanthrope.
Edit: In these terms, "c" is always hard, just as in Tolkien's Anglicised Elvish.
Edit: Alphabetized list.
April 2010: Fixed wereboar (I think); added werecat (which may or may not be correct); still can't find werebat or wererat (thanks mostly to not having a paper (physical) English-Greek dictionary, and not being sure when I translate "bat" online whether I'm getting "club" or "flying mammal"). |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 06 Apr 2010 01:45:04 |
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Northmen...
