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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 04:28:31
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Yes, I'm like that as well, Canyia. Though I do tend towards a more universal view of it -- much like in Wicca. "An it hurt none, do as ye will." That doesn't mean I think Wicca is a good religion, just that I like the way they phrased that part.
That line, actually, is what laws in this country (meaning the US) are supposed to be about. That's why I say that homosexual marriages should not be forbidden by the state. That doesn't mean I like them. In fact, my reactions to it in principle range from confusion to outright disgust, depending on my mood at the time. What I say is that this government can't forbid it. After all, it doesn't actually hurt anyone. It gets people riled up against it, but they aren't hurt, just offended.
Really, the same goes for any belief that doesn't hurt people. I think that Wicca, in general, is very strange. But I've had pleasant conversations with Wiccans, better ones than I've had with some Christians. Buddism has a lot in common with Christianity. Despite recent events, Islam is one of the most tolerant religions in the history of the world. (In the Middle Ages, the Muslims let any Christians and Jews in their territory continue their practices. Christians didn't do that at all.)
Basically, I've decided that the Roman version is the one for me to follow. It feels the most "right." But I decided long ago that I'm not cut out for evangilization, and besides, I don't like forcing someone to believe what I believe. Arguing scientific facts is one thing (and I've done that -- I remember one Catholic I met who was sure that black holes couldn't exist; he had the wrong definition, though . . . he thought that a black hole was nothingness), but faith is something that each and every person has to choose for him- or herself.
Oh, and by the way, I have to point out something that this Chick guy has wrong. Belief in Jesus doesn't save you. Not at all. After all, everyone in Hell knows there's a God. You have to earn a place for yourself; otherwise, you get what you deserve.
I don't think this guy's going to Hell. And even if I did, that would be wrong. I'm not the one he's going to have to face when he dies. I'm glad of that, too. I couldn't be fair. But I think he's going to Purgatory, just like I think that's where many non-Christians will go. If God condemns a Buddist for not being a Christian, even if he's actually been a saintly person, then He's not a God worth worshipping. I think that he is. And I think that Christianity is actually a process; it's the path that will lead you in the right direction most easily. Call it a focus for your soul. But I also think that there are other roads.
Oh, and Purgatory is in the Bible, despite what this moron says. It used to be called Limbo. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 05:27:05
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Mournblade, follow your own heart. That's all I can say. Kharma and Dharma have counterparts in Christianity; it's all part of what Nietzsche attacked as a "slave mentality." Basically, accept misfortunes (no need to seek them out, just accept them when you can't do anything about them) and help others even when it's an inconvenience to you. The reward for this is just stated more bluntly with Kharma and the like.
Nietzsche hated this, but he didn't think that people can actually cooperate for any length of time as equals. He was a real pessimist. Really, the whole is stronger than the parts.
As for science and religion . . . really, there used to be absolutely no confict. Of course, it was called natural philosphy (as opposed to "true" philosophy) up until the late 1700s, early 1800s, but Aquinas and Augustine were both scientists. In fact, Augustine had a Christian-oriented theory of evolution! He'd have agreed with Darwin publically if they'd both been alive at the same time. He said that God had planted "seeds of creation" that germinated when He wanted them to. Not everything came into existance in six days.
In fact, if you look into the translation history, you find a lot of points that could have gone different ways. Originally, the six "days" of creation could have been "ages" -- or, my favorite, "steps" (as if of a process). Even if you disregard that, God didn't create the sun and stars and moon until later. You have two whole days where there's no way of knowing how long a day is. According to ancient Hebrew ways, it was imposible to speak of "day" as anything other than "that time when the sun's up."
Here's another. God separates the land from the water. Guess what? In ancient Hebrew "land" and "water" are synonyms for "stability" and "chaos."
One of my favorite examples of religion helping science is when the bishop of Paris put a stop to some things being discussed. Remember how Aristotle claimed there could be no vacuum? ("Nature abhors a vacuum" comes from him.) Well, due to that, some philosophers said that the universe could not be moving. If it was, then either there would be a vacuum (and God can't create nothingness) or something was filling in that space (and God couldn't create anything after the begining of time). However, this means that these philosphers were puting conditions and restrictions on God. The bishop issued an order to stop it, the pope backed him up, and suddenly the way was open for people to talk about things that had since been suppressed -- including alternate worlds. The Many Worlds theory is actually older than its name.
And then there's the one that I'm sure would be your favorite, Mournblade. Genetics as a process was discovered by a Catholic monk in Austria, named Gregor Mendel. That monastary where he did his work is now a research center, and his garden still grows there. The plants themselves, the ones he used, are long since gone; but today pea plants decended from his are still cultivated for visitors to see.
There's only one reason why there's this gulf between science and religion now. Well, two, but they're related: Newton's theories of motion, and Darwin's theory of evolution. Newton called his laws the guiding forces of a "clockwork universe," where everything continued in motion unless altered. Darwin suggested biological change was a natural event, and animals and plants haven't been this way since the beginning of time.
Some idiots thought that both these men meant that God wasn't necessary. They renounced them both, and created the gulf that still stands today.
That is, for most Christians. Roman Catholics are the most tolerant (on average, I stress; I know of some who aren't) of science and change. This is in part due to the efforts of the current Pope, John Paul II. (A wonderful man; I actually met him in Rome when I was 11. It's still one of my fondest memories.)
One of the best things John Paul II did, I think, is that when he realized that Rome had never formally accepted the views that it locked up Galileo for, issued a formal and public appology for this fact. Many people wouldn't draw attention to it, but he did.
Under his guidence, the Vatican has also purchased, and still runs, a telescope in the Andes where actual priests carry out astronomical observations next to lay scientists. I forget what the official name of this observatory is, but most people call it "the Pope Scope."
Another thing he's done is say that evolution is quite likely fact. Now, the only reason he hasn't stated it as fact is because a) it's a theory, after all, and b) because many views on evolution actually do reject God. It might not be much, but I think he handled it quite well.
As it is, Mournblade, I find no problem with science and religion; neither does the pope, or a certain Baptist deacon/astrophysicist/professor of astronomy. My philosophy teacher supports it as well, and he's a former Catholic priest. (Don't get the wrong idea -- he's only former because he fell in love with the woman who is now his wife, realized he didn't have the strength to keep his vow of chasitiy and still be a priest, and asked for and was granted a release. He's still Catholic, and one of the most moral people I know.)
Remember, I don't want to be an evangilist. I don't think I can do it. But I do want to suggest, Mournblade, that you take a look at Aquinas' Five Ways and Descartes' Proofs. I think you'd at least find them interesting.
No obligation.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 05:54:27
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Hmm... I think perhaps, you should have been the one to take my recent "Philosophical Questions in Religion" exam Bookwyrm. I'll admit that was one of the ones I had problems with. I really could have made use of some of the material presented in this scroll so far.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 06:08:01
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Bookwyrm said -
quote:
Genetics as a process was discovered by a Catholic monk in Austria, named Gregor Mendel. That monastary where he did his work is now a research center, and his garden still grows there. The plants themselves, the ones he used, are long since gone; but today pea plants decended from his are still cultivated for visitors to see.
Actually there is a new and fascinating book about Gregor Mendel and his experiments that was written recently, by a geneticist I think. The book details (quiet extensively, although you will probably require a basic understanding of genetics, mutations, and the so-called theory of 'genetic-drift variation') both - his studies into his 'pea-plant' breeding, and his particular views on his own personal religious experience. Mendel and the Pea I believe it is called. I haven't finished reading it yet, but it is well worth the effort for those with an interest in the origins of the study of genetics.
Bookwyrm also said -
quote:
But I do want to suggest, Mournblade, that you take a look at Aquinas' Five Ways and Descartes' Proofs. I think you'd at least find them interesting.
Mournblade I would also suggest that you take considerable effort to acquire the more accurate recently re-released copy of the first edition printing of Descartes' Proofs. There are two other heavily revised and modified editions that lose some of the true essence of what Descartes was putting forth in his system. There is also an annotated version non available, but I am not sure who the publisher is.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 06:23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
Hmm... I think perhaps, you should have been the one to take my recent "Philosophical Questions in Religion" exam Bookwyrm. I'll admit that was one of the ones I had problems with. I really could have made use of some of the material presented in this scroll so far.
I often find information hitting me upside the head right after a test, and often not from material I was studying at the time. One of the biggest examples was on my Astronomy final back in May; there was a compare/contrast question on Venus, Earth, and Mars, with specific focus on the atmospheres (I'd known more about the geology of each), with a lot of points given to it (so I knew I had to be exact).
And what do I find when I come home, but the latest issue of Astronomy waiting for me. And guess what its cover story was on . . . .   (It's true -- look it up.)
By the way, I got more than 100% on that test. I was shocked, in all honesty. I'd thought that I hadn't gotten higher than 92%, and that was me at my most optimistic. Turns out I only got one question wrong -- in the extra credit section!
::sigh:: I wish that sort of thing happened more often. But then, if it did, it wouldn't mean nearly as much to me. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 11:28:40
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| I'm not going to give a long winded response to all of this, I've just read through this whole thread and find much of it to be very interesting. I merely wish to relate my own opinion for people to crunch on. I'm a strong believer in science, but do hold onto my own rather open ended version of theology. I am a baptized Roman Catholic, officially, although I fairly renounce such faith, not to attack it, it's just not for me. I have a belief that there is a higher "divine" power in this universe, it's the only way I can explain things, but it's my belief that it's not a particularly active force, but more of a passive one that guides things along their way, and nudges things here and there, but doesn't really control the world as some people would like to believe. My reasons for renouncing my Roman Catholicism can be credited to some things which Pope John Paul II has publicly appologized for (such as the vatican's support of Hitler) and some things which I'm not sure if he has appologized for or not, such as Three crusades in the medievil ages, which were responsible for the decimation of the middle east. These genocides that the church supported, I don't agree with. The way the Catholic church brutalized Ireland and Scotland in the name of "converting the faithless" because it wasn't the same religion as theirs is intolerable. The Spanish Inquisition, was sick. More recently (and no joke another update was just on the news not 2 minutes ago) the Vatican's cover ups of the things done to children is un-stomachable by me, and you can't say the pope didn't know about these misdeeds people. and probably most profoundly, my biggest issues with catholicism are the fact that I went to a Catholic grade school for 4 years, and it was more violent than high school... go figure, and the teachers and principal's tolerated such acts like two kids being scalped by the same student and he recieved little to no punishment, several kids breaking eachothers bones in fights, and much much more. And my second bone to pick, is more with organized religion in general, which is that churches pressure people to give "dues" to the church, in exchange for being able to feel better about themselves. the catholic church is notable for this though, with it's request for I believe it's 10% of your earnings to the church to show your appreciation or somesuch. forgive me I forget what exactly they tell you it's for. and it's curious as to why the Vatican needs huge coffers full of cash, when for the most part, hosting countries subsidize church construction and maintenance if I'm not mistaken. anywho, I'm done with my rant/opinion, sorry to bother anyone who read this, but I felt my opinion was worth some hearing. |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 11:37:36
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| oh, one other small point (sorry) *ducks as tomes are thrown at his head* I do believe that everyone needs something to believe in. Many an athiest have I known that you could hear muttering a prayer in hard times. I don't condone anyone for believing in any religion, because religion helps us all in those times of need. I just have alot of bones to pick with organized religions, because of the inherent corruption in most if not all of them, because with all organizations, there's positions of power, which all people will respect, and unfortunately, with power comes people seeking it, and people who seek power, can find ways to corrupt it to their own ends, which can lead to all manner of problems. Followers of a faith, will often follow the Leaders of said faith, and if the leaders (those who spread "god's" (I quote that to relate to all gods) good word) have corrupt thoughts of any manner, as most if not all humans will have at some time or another, they can be known to lead their followers down paths that aren't so shining. we're all human, we're all subject to making mistakes. some atone for them and appologize for them, while others don't. and thats the inherent problem with anything organized, including religion. organization brings leaders, positions of leadership bring seekers of power. and not always do people seeking power have corrupt intentions, often times they do, or are led to corruption, and there in lies the problem. so I think unorganized religion should be the wave of the future lol |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 11:50:27
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Yes, it was. But I would like to point out some things.
First, I cannot possibly believe that the Pope could have known about what happened. You don't know how much he cares for children. I do. I've seen it. Also, it wasn't the Vatican that covered it up, it was the local -- American -- bishops. They've always acted as if they had more leeway than they're supposed to. I'd also like to point out that this was only a very small number of cases. The Church as a whole is hardly responsible for that -- though it is responsible for dealing with the mess.
Second, it's an old, medieval tradition that you give at least one-tenth of your income to the state and one-tenth to the Church. This is no longer an obligation. (Well, for the Church, anyway. If you don't pay up to the state, they send the cops after you.) All that the Church asks is that you give, not to the Church itself, but to certain causes. Durring Mass, for instance, they will announce the reason for the collection -- anything from beautification of the physical church to feeding the hungry in Africa. I never give to beautification drives, and no one gives it a second look. Feeding the hungry is something different. Same with education, and other worthwhile ventures.
The Vatican does not have great coffers of money. Yes, the Church spends money on making things look good. I think a lot of it is superfluous, though sometimes it's such a work of art that it has merit all its own. Monetary corruption isn't condoned at all, and while I'm sure it exists, the Vatican does stamp it out when they find it. A lot has changed since the Middle Ages.
Oh, and the Spanish Inquisition didn't answer to the Vatican. It was under the control of the Spanish Crown, and existed solely to stamp out Jews and Muslims. The Papal Inquisistion was brutal as well, but not so quick to condemn. And they actually did go after heretics. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 12:02:37
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well said bookwyrm, and I stand refuted on some of my topics. as I said, I'm a bit rusty on some of my knowledge, as I don't follow organized religion as my own cause anymore, I don't study as much of it indepth. as I posted just afterwards, I do believe in my own form of religion, and I do try to better myself as my life continues. I don't condemn anyone for any religion they practice, I try my best to be tolerant of most things in life (although some things I do find hard to tolerate), and I do think that everyone needs something to believe in, because not everything we come across can be explained by science. Such as, and my fiance can back me up on this, the damn spirits of kids that seem to dwell in my house and have been known to wake me from my sleep, and turn my tv off repeatedly when I'm awake (a game I get thoroughly aggravated at when they play it, thankfully not so often anymore) and no it's not power outages either, those of you who don't believe don't have to, but when a brand new (less than a year old) tv turns itself off when noones touching the remote (it's on the table beside me) and the lights that are on the same breaker stay on (so it's not a power outtage) I can't explain it any other way. so yeah, I believe in alot of things, it's not catholics I have a problem with, it's just organized religion. I'd rather just believe that there's a god of some sort, and I'll give praise on my own volition, in my own home, where it's peaceful, quiet, and just between me and the man upstairs. When possible, I'd rather cut out the middle men and make my own deals, it seems to get the best arrangements and most profitable for those involved when you go straight to the source, as opposed to going through middle men eh?  |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
Edited by - Karesch on 08 Aug 2003 12:04:48 |
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Canyia
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 12:07:30
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| What makes you say it's a man upstairs? :p. J/K |
Some people say that I'm heartless. They are wrong though,I have the heart of a little girl . . .in a jar on my desk. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 12:08:48
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I find nothing wrong with that. Just wanted to get the facts straight, that's all. Many's the time I've been corrected on things I thought were true.
All in all, I condone your choices. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 12:10:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Canyia
What makes you say it's a man upstairs? :p. J/K
That's an easy one to answer. I call it lingusitic sexism. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 12:12:25
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| lol, Hey, I edited that but thanks anywho. and I appreciate your enlightenment on the things I had wrong, I'm always seeking knowledge, perhaps eventually I'll be all knowing and completely corrupted (see sig.) LOL. I love knowledge, and love persuing it bit by bit. someday I'm sure my brain will rot, either from too much knowledge, or too much of my wifes good cooking, LOL. *ducks and Canyia throws things at him* either way, until it explodes, I'll always want to learn new things. |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 12:14:38
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LOL, it wasn't meant as linguistic sexism, just lack of an easier term. man/woman, doesn't matter to me. quite honestly it's probably neither. it's a god, who's to say their subject to such matters as reproductive organs? right? it's just easier to write "man" than it is to write "divine higher being that probably lacks sexual organs due to a lack of needing to reproduce through sexual activities" LOL
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Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
Edited by - Karesch on 08 Aug 2003 12:15:51 |
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Canyia
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 12:18:43
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| * Whips a black forest cake at Karesch's head* |
Some people say that I'm heartless. They are wrong though,I have the heart of a little girl . . .in a jar on my desk. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 12:25:00
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::hands Karesch a scroll of shield::
Don't worry, I'm the same way.
Oh, I wasn't saying the "linguistic sexism" was intentional. That's why I called it linguistic. It's built into the language, and while we have an article for indeterminate gender, it's not considered polite to call another person 'it', and so it's certainly not for God. The English language is a silly thing.
In other languages they don't have that problem. In India, they call God an It. It works in their language. But Romance languages are even worse than Germanic ones like ours; we at least can use they, them, etc. They can't do that in a language like Spanish or Italian and still be gramatically correct. You have to use a gender-specific article. So, for a group of men, you use male, and for a group of women it's female. But so long as there's one man in with those women you have to use the masculine article. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 12:42:04
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I'll hafta keep that scroll handy  thanks. as for the linguistics, yeah, I hear you on that. Canyia just likes to nail me for things like that. she just likes to get digs on me. Must be a love thing that I've yet to understand. *uses aforementioned scroll before the next cake comes flying* LOL |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 20:53:18
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Pretty scary Karesch. When I was in Okinawa Japan, A place the was BRUTALIZED by the Japanese in WWII, I saw a couple ghosts. One that was not too friendly either. IT didn't DO anything to me, but it was dark in my room, and there was this patch of... LIGHTLESS BLACK that started above my bookshelf, and hovered over my bed. I was sleeping well, until something inside me told me to WAKE UP WAKE UP. My hair was standing on end, and there was this blackness floating through the room. It was scary. I also saw a girl near a side of a road, which no one else, except my friend's sister Musaii saw. When we went back she was still there, but only Musaii could see her. Okinawa is loaded with restless spirits. I have a sense for spirits, it is WEIRD!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 22:03:11
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too all, this is way off topic, just a reply to mournblade, so sorry to take up space in here...
Mournblade, I could tell you several interesting stories about interactions with spirites. Probably the most notable experience I've had with one, was a few years back. I was driving my Taurus cop car and my two buddies were in a Pontiac Acadian (pontiac model of a chevette) and it was around mid january and we were at a coffee shop and we decided to take a drive out into the fringes of town to one of the gravel quaries to boot around in the snow a bit have some fun doing donuts and so forth right. well, I'm in my car, and my two buddies are in their car and we're spinning around and such when we slid side on towards eachother and I remember thinking this is gonna hurt b/c it was drivers side on drivers side. ANYWHO, we stopped about a foot apart from eachother and rolled down our windows and just stared at eachother for about two minutes before we're both at the same time just like, "we gotta go. NOW!" and we both left like a bat outta hell and made it back to the coffee shop where we sat down and started talking. We were all like.. "did you feel that back there?..." "uh-huh..." "yup..." "that was freaky. Kinda felt like a really angry girl was watching us huh?" "how'd you know?" "I thought the exact same thing." so anyhow, we were all spooked as anything and agreed not to talk about it anymore, and hope it went away. well, turns out it didn't go away like that. about a week later my significant other of the time, (sorry Canyia for mentioning her, but it's relevant) came over to my place, and started telling me she'd been having weird dreams of and twice had seen in her bedroom a mid-teens girl that was very restless about being dead. At this point I got scared as **** because I hadn't said a word of it to anybody after that night at the coffee shop. as it ends up this "presence" of a young woman who was very unhappy about the way she must have perished decided to inhabit my household for about two weeks before finally leaving. Me, my one buddy that was there, and my girlfriend of the time all tried looking into old papers and so forth to see if we could find out about anything that might've happened in that general area, perhaps a body found or anything at all, but we turned up nothing. So the only thing we really think we figured out was that a mid-teens girl was violated in some way and killed and is restless about it... to most skeptics I'm sure it sounds like a crock, but I know and my friends know what happened, so bah on anyone else.
sorry again to all for filling this forum with this, but I thought mournblade might be interested in reading it, so I posted it. thanks for your tolerance |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
Edited by - Karesch on 08 Aug 2003 22:06:08 |
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Canyia
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 22:36:09
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| Hmmm, I was never aware of that. The ghosts at your house are always angry anyway. One of them fallowed me home for no reason and blew up some of my sutff. Now that's messed up. |
Some people say that I'm heartless. They are wrong though,I have the heart of a little girl . . .in a jar on my desk. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2003 : 04:55:15
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The scientist in me tends to look at such things with, if not skepticism, then non-comitted interest. I'm sort of in the middle.
More things in Heaven, Earth, and in between, after all . . . .
Besides -- see my signature? I never discount anything unless I have proof positive (or, if I'm discounting it, perhaps I should say 'negative' . . . .). |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Canyia
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2003 : 04:58:25
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| Well I'd like to know what scientific thing happened when my microwazve caughtfire and expoled ( I was the only one home, the microwave wasn't even plugged into the wall. ) |
Some people say that I'm heartless. They are wrong though,I have the heart of a little girl . . .in a jar on my desk. |
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Zimeros
Learned Scribe
Brazil
121 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2003 : 13:52:29
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| Canya, I'm sorry, but I know "the dark side" of the christians, specialy the chatolics, my family is catholic(but I don't have religion), and when I begin to play D&D they want that expulse me, they want burn my books, and they create a evil image of RPG in my city. And in my school study with me a girl that speak this things how my parents, you have luck for don't live in Brazil, because here exist a Television program that sey "bad things" of RPG and Cardgame,(I think that) this people are a idiotic. I have respect for your religion, but I think that is a great error to humanity, and this religion creates a retardation of 1000 year in our evulution. I'm sorry if some person is "injuried" with my words, but I think this, and I'm sorry if I write some incorrect thing here, because I'm leaning english... |
Edited by - Zimeros on 09 Aug 2003 15:14:44 |
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Canyia
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2003 : 23:53:52
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| You know what? I see absolutely nothing wrong with my religion. It teaches alot of good things like love and exceptance of other people. Some people seem to misunderstand that and start spreading hate in the name of the Lord. That's their problem, not my religions problem. If they were actually proper followers then they wouldn't be hurting anyone. But they are not. They have cause all this 'retardation' you seem to speak of. My religion has not. Infact I think if people were to fallow it they way that it was meant to be fallowed this world would be a very happy place. But it's not the first religion who's people have bred intolerance mind you. So before you start pinning all intolerance on Catholicism I suggest you read a newspaper first, then you can start yammering off about it. |
Some people say that I'm heartless. They are wrong though,I have the heart of a little girl . . .in a jar on my desk. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2003 : 07:30:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Canyia
Well I'd like to know what scientific thing happened when my microwazve caughtfire and expoled ( I was the only one home, the microwave wasn't even plugged into the wall. )
Who knows? I never said it had to be something other than paranormality . . . .
Zimeros, just because people share the same religion doesn't mean they think alike, or that the teachings of that religion are bad. Humans are fallible. Amittedly, it would be boring if we weren't, but sometimes I do wish we were less chaotic in how we deal with another.
Just remember, someone justifying an act based on what it says in the Bible (Caniya, feel like giving that example you gave me? ) is really no different than someone interperating the laws of a country in ways that are far from what was once meant. Sometimes it's hard to understand how someone could come to certain conclusions, like (in the US) justifying abortion under the Fourth Amendment.
It says that people are protected from others, even the law, coming into their homes, searching it or their persons, and/or taking away property, unless they have a valid warrant from a judge who has ruled probable cause. This was also interperated as a right to general privacy. Somehow they made the jump from that to "a right to perform abortions." It doesn't seem to fit.
I don't agree with a lot of what many Catholics say, and that includes priests. I heard one with the closest to a fire-and-brimstone sermon I'd ever witnessed in reality talking about how homosexuality is an affront to God. I don't think it is. I think it's contrary to how God would want us to act, but I doubt that, in and of itself, would condemn people to Hell.
I have never heard any valid reason why fantasy, whether RPG, trading card games, books, movies, TV shows . . . why any of it would be necessarily evil. Just like I've never heard anything about any real violence or suicide positively coming from one of those passtimes.
The closest I know of is when some guy shot up a courthouse because he thought he actually was in the movie The Matrix. If you ask me, though, I'd say it was more that he was feeling out of touch with the world, like it wasn't real; and seeing that movie sealed the delusion. I don't think it was the movie itself. Otherwise there would have been a lot more incidences like that.
These people aren't bad. They just lash out at things they don't understand. It might be because they like getting attention, or they fear what's different, or that they are genuinely afraid we're all messed up in something bad for our souls. It's also a case of who talks the loudest gets heard the most. People like alarmist stories; check the news to see. More times than not, the news people will choose "this is a bad thing" stories over "this is harmless" ones. Feel-good stories are rare now.
I think the best way do deal with this is meet them head on, and show them nothing's wrong. I've played these sorts of games with other Catholics, and no one I've met has minded. Even the most staunchly literal-minded Catholic I know (I mentioned her previously) still lets her son collect Yu-Gi-Oh! cards. We can't just ignore these people, unfortunately, though a direct confrontation isn't the likely way to fix things. They'd probably relish that.
There's a story about St. Francis that I've always liked. It's said that one day he was talking with another monk, and it was suggested that they go preach in the town. I don't remember the details, such as who said what, or if the other monk was just passing through or actually wanted to see Francis in action; but that's not the point. It's what St. Francis did.
He walked through the town, the other monk at his side. The walked down nearly every street, back and forth, for some time. When Francis decided to call it a night, his friend protested that he hadn't actually done anything. Francis told him he had. He just hadn't said anything. If people aren't inclined to listen, they wouldn't hear him. But they can't help seeing him.
That's the sort of thing we need to do. We have to be right there in the open, showing them how wrong they are about us. Speak softly, but don't go quietly . . . .
On a related note, while I was writing this, I thought of something I'd read a while ago. It's on a different subject, but it still seems apropo . . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2003 : 07:42:17
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Thanks for the link Bookwyrm, it is very interesting. It is indeed appropriate, but I am left to wonder exactly how many people will actually take notice of it's meaning.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2003 : 07:53:57
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| What do you mean? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2003 : 08:08:45
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That's just it . . . it seems obvious to me, so I was wondering if you were talking about something else . . .  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2003 : 08:15:37
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Oh...I didn't mean to sound nasty, if that was the way you interpreted my last post...sorry .
Anyway, how did you originally come across this site?.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 10 Aug 2003 08:34:21 |
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CHristian anti-D&D site! It is true! Funnystuff
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