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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
 Posted - 05 May 2003 : 05:36:19
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mournblade, you're probably a veritable treasure trove of info about Mediaeval and Renaissance weapons.
This does not really have anything to do with D20 mechanics, but I use ReunQuest mechanics, so here goes. Standard RQ rules let anyone parry with anything, which is a fine abstraction for simplicity.
I, on the other hand, won't allow people to parry with a one-handed unbalanced weapon (an axe, mace, etc.) I say "That's what shields are for". I don't know what a real battle axe weighs, but it seems unlikely to me that a person could whip around a stick with a big piece of metal on the end with as much ease as a rapier. Heck, maybe people didn't really parry with broadswords either. I imagine in mediaeval combat not having a shield was pretty dumb.
I do let people parry with two-handed axes, maces, etc. That may also be unrealistic, but it seems more in the realm of plausibility. |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 13:06:09
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| And this is one thing you forgot about then mourn. The fact that duel weilding a weapon was not made when armour lost its value. Did you foeget in your acting that acting is acting ... not real fighting. Anyway. through your acting you should remember that a lot of fencing (is spelled right) had duel weilding styles. That is what the fencing dagger is for after all. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 13:15:44
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I hate it when I hit the enter button.
But yes I do agree with you. And the english had a verson of a clymore, I never said it WAS a claymore. In any case I dont own a replica ... My family was scottish and the only thing I got from my grandpa for my 16th birthday was a family sword... which made me rathr happy  .
Guns didnt really make duel weilding ...
And yes.... As we have both said the claymore is a nice big sword that is best with two hands. That way the blows ACTUALLY do what they should do. I never once said it would be very effective heh ... the only thing that I said is that it CAN be done. Which was just me replying to someone's post asking if it could be done. Which i was just letting them know that it could be done. I didn't need a history lecture. Nore did I need so many people jumping down at me for telling him that it could be done... When infact yes it could.... and like I have said before. I never ONCE said it would be as effective as just using it the right way.
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"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 13:24:07
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And Bran I am thinking that Mourn will agree with me. An axe out of the items that you have listed is actually made to disarm as well as kill. It was also used to block on comming attcks. However I wouldnt bother with that. There was an axe (I cannot remember the name of it) that was 6 foot tall to 7 or 8. It was swong around and around until the time of the blow... Upon with it cut through armour, man, and horse.... My theory is ... Destroy the man ... Destroy the threat. After all ... if the person is not alive he damn well cant use the weapon he has. Same thing with fingers... if s/he has no fingers then they cant use a weapon. Axes ... the smaller ones and even some of the big ones, actually stend to be a faster weapon. I would have to agree with you and state this however: for them to parry anythign they would have to be using a battle axe or a hand axe. There are to many axes that are far to big beyond those two that could be duel weilded... They are unlike a claymore oddly weighted.
All in all. There should be a feat to use axes that way I would have to lean to that. Axes are odd weapons. They tame quite a bit of time to learn how to use. Same with a sword. However I would have to give any master of an axe a lot more credit then a master of a sword. Why? Because most people who used axes were more barbaric... because they didn't use a "noble" weapon.
If you want some good info about axes and their uses in fighting watch the history channel ... they might show a show called the history of the axe. It showed me a few axes that I myself have never seen before. Which is not many. But still. A good deal I didn't even know about.
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"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 17:12:42
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Cult_Leader:
quote:
I hate it when I hit the enter button.
You can go back and edit you posts, eh.
mournblade, This is what I often see illustrated in RPG books as a Claymore.
These definitely look like what Liam Neeson used in "Rob Roy". You can also see a small picture of Mel Gibson from "Braveheart" holding his gargantuan two-handed sword.
Boy, replica weapons are sure cheap. 
Here's some much, much more appealing Scottish claymores. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 05 May 2003 18:59:40 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 18:53:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Leader
And this is one thing you forgot about then mourn. The fact that duel weilding a weapon was not made when armour lost its value. Did you foeget in your acting that acting is acting ... not real fighting. Anyway. through your acting you should remember that a lot of fencing (is spelled right) had duel weilding styles. That is what the fencing dagger is for after all.
No remembering needed, I mentioned Florentine fighting which is the maingauche/rapier, remember? Florentine is a term used in fencing to describe fighting with a sword and dagger. Fencing did not come into significant popularity until the late 1500's. Fencing became an effective form when ARMOUR lost its use due to the firearm.
If you wnat to get a feel for real medieval fighting, check out www.sca.org The fighting is NOT acting, but the weapons are not metal though they are weighted similar. The weapons are made of heavy rattan and there are strict Armour requirements. SCA teaches you what really CAN and CAN'T be done with weapons becasue pain is a very good teacher. IT is not acting, it is a medieval re-creation. THe only aspect that we do not recreate is Cavalry in battle. Too many insurance issues there. SO the melee battles are infantry recreation only, but you still have to have a good idea of tactics. The SCA is run on an honour system, if you are hit hard enough you take it, if you think the shot was too light you do not take it. People hit HARD in the sca, so one must be careful as to which they take and do not take. I have many bruises and dents that show that. Unfortunatley my friend who is currently fighting in the CROWN tournament has suffered two concussions already. You really have to be careful.
With Historical Re-enactment there is not much full contact because of the metal. IN SCA everything is full contact. I just stopped the SCA about a month ago because practicing 3 nights a week got to be too much. I was getting worn down. You are besically learning to defend yourself against balanced baseball bats.
IN the SCA you will learn how to wear armour, use shields effectively, and learn other fighting styles. ACtually SCA DOES have a dual wield fighting style that many people use, but the purists in the SCA are highly against it. I am not as it is very effective for the SCA recreation, but it is not period, which is issue woth the purists. BUT if the other opponent was wearing good armour, you would have to ask yourself just how much of an advantage does a second weapon give you over a shield? Not very much. THe defense of a shield is immense. The shield should give WAY more of an armour bonus than it does in D&D, but for game balance sake I think they did a good job of assigning bonuses.
Incidentally if you are interested and I got the link wrong feel free to email me. SCA is prevalent all over the United states and canada which is broken up into various kingdoms (each with its own website). Australia is part of the West kingdom, and Europe is there OWN kingdom of Drachenwald.
The website for the EAST KINGDOM, which includes the east coast from QUEBEC to Maryland is www.eastkingdom.org. I know for sure AUSTRALIA is part of the kingdom of the west www.west.sca.org, and the Kingdom of Drachenvald is all of Europe, I have fought with Drachenvald many times, and they are fun. So for all you European guys here is the link www.drachenwald.org
Overall SCA is VERY fun. But if you want to get anywhere in it, you really have to have dedication. Unfortunatly there are many things I like to do which interfere with SCA prgression, so I had to give it a rest. But I hope the links were helpful.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 05 May 2003 18:54:36 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 19:02:52
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
Cult_Leader:
quote:
I hate it when I hit the enter button.
You can go back and edit you posts, eh.
mournblade, This is what I often see illustrated in RPG books as a Claymore.
These definitely look like what Liam Neeson used in "Rob Roy". You can also see a small picture of Mel Gibson from "Braveheart" holding his gargantuan two-handed sword.
Boy, replica weapons are sure cheap.
WOW that is an incredible site! Yeah those HAVE to be authentic becaus that 16th century claymore is about $800! WOW! That is alot. The 18th century is even more. OOOOO! I am oogling with want right now. I will have to wait until NEXT september. The Sword William Wallace used (Which is displayed in the William Wallace memorial in Sterling Scotland (ELROND GO THERE!!!)) was a precursor to the Claymore in the site. At the time of William Wallace (c. 1297), the scots did not have the quality of equiptment that the English had so they needed a sword that could smash the hell out of armour
Thanks for the link BRAN! I will look at it and DROOL!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 19:08:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Leader
And Bran I am thinking that Mourn will agree with me. An axe out of the items that you have listed is actually made to disarm as well as kill. It was also used to block on comming attcks. However I wouldnt bother with that. There was an axe (I cannot remember the name of it) that was 6 foot tall to 7 or 8. It was swong around and around until the time of the blow... Upon with it cut through armour, man, and horse.... My theory is ... Destroy the man ... Destroy the threat. After all ... if the person is not alive he damn well cant use the weapon he has. Same thing with fingers... if s/he has no fingers then they cant use a weapon. Axes ... the smaller ones and even some of the big ones, actually stend to be a faster weapon. I would have to agree with you and state this however: for them to parry anythign they would have to be using a battle axe or a hand axe. There are to many axes that are far to big beyond those two that could be duel weilded... They are unlike a claymore oddly weighted.
They tame quite a bit of time to learn how to use. Same with a sword. However I would have to give any master of an axe a lot more credit then a master of a sword. Why? Because most people who used axes were more barbaric... because they didn't use a "noble" weapon.
If you want some good info about axes and their uses in fighting watch the history channel ... they might show a show called the history of the axe. It showed me a few axes that I myself have never seen before. Which is not many. But still. A good deal I didn't even know about.
Sorry Bookwyrm have to do this
The axe had this amazing ability to hook shields and pull them down, thus opening your opponent up for attack. The vikings used axes which were jsut as effective as swords. Their axes did not look like the BARBARIAN axe we see in fantasy art (though I wish they did they are not practical). They were one head, with what was called a bearded blade (flat on top, curving down below). They often had a thrusting spike on the top. So imagine this, you are a viking, you hook the shield and pull it down. Now your opponent is defenseless against that REALLY NASTY spike that is going to impale his face! Beautiful weapon.
The Huskarls of King Harold of England in 1066 nearly won the Battle of Hastings against Duke William, because of their HUGE battle axes. They were effective becasue they would fight in a line, and cleave the cavalry as it would charge (remember these were dark age knights, not the heavily armoured knights on the 14th century). The problem with this type of axe as an individual was inorder to get a good cut in, you had to hold the axe back and expose your body to attack. The huskarls had a kite shield which helped, but the viking warriors at the time did not tend to use shields with axes. It was also not double bladed, it tended to have a single broad head.
But I have to disagree with Cult about it being a barbaric weapon. The POLE AXE was used often in Chivalry tournaments, where the two knights would fight over the barrier. The knights of Scandanavia (no longer vikings) used axes far into the later middle ages.
Incidentally that history channel special is awesome. I have been trying to get it on DVD for awhile. Becareful of the Conquest show however, they get some things mixed up. But of course since history is often interpretation they may have it right...
Sorry I keep taking up so much space with this stuff, but this forum is the only place I get to talk about this stuff with people who MIGHT care. This is not exactly good dinner conversation on a date. Unless you are bringing that date to the metropolitan Museum of art!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 05 May 2003 19:27:57 |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 19:40:57
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mournblade, I was looking at a bunch of sites that make reproductions of weapons and aromr. The scottishquality.com site is by far the most detailed. As you saw, they even have steel composition, for pete's sake!
Regarding axes, that's very interesting about hooking an opponent's shield then spiking him in the face. It'd be nice to put stuff like that in a game, but it might make combat too unwieldy.
I remember seeing a show about fighting with two-handed swords (pretty late in history, I think). The guys demo-ing the technique used the entire sword as a weapon, alomost kind of like a quarterstaff. It was pretty interesting. |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 20:36:24
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
mournblade, I was looking at a bunch of sites that make reproductions of weapons and aromr. The scottishquality.com site is by far the most detailed. As you saw, they even have steel composition, for pete's sake!
Regarding axes, that's very interesting about hooking an opponent's shield then spiking him in the face. It'd be nice to put stuff like that in a game, but it might make combat too unwieldy.
I remember seeing a show about fighting with two-handed swords (pretty late in history, I think). The guys demo-ing the technique used the entire sword as a weapon, alomost kind of like a quarterstaff. It was pretty interesting.
I seen that. It was rather ... Lets just put it this way. Is was cool. I tried to lean how to do some thing like he did with my own hand and a half but that didnt work out so well ... So I stick to my Batajitsu or ... two short swords lol. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 20:41:22
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
mournblade, I was looking at a bunch of sites that make reproductions of weapons and aromr. The scottishquality.com site is by far the most detailed. As you saw, they even have steel composition, for pete's sake!
Regarding axes, that's very interesting about hooking an opponent's shield then spiking him in the face. It'd be nice to put stuff like that in a game, but it might make combat too unwieldy.
I remember seeing a show about fighting with two-handed swords (pretty late in history, I think). The guys demo-ing the technique used the entire sword as a weapon, alomost kind of like a quarterstaff. It was pretty interesting.
I have utilized this in the game, by giving a spiked axe a +1 on its critical roll when fighting someone with a shield. Does not double the range but will give a +1 on the SECOND roll. It seems to work so far. Ulktimately not enough of my PC's Use aspiked axes to REALLY test it.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2003 : 15:05:21
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| Hmm. I have been thinking about this. Lets say someone has been using a double bladed sword. They are doing good and then all the sudden they roll a crit miss. They roll their d20 again. And then find out that it didnt break ... but they roll it again (this is our system btw)and roll a 20, Which is they hit themselves. And then they roll another 20.... which was their heart ... And then rolled 19 and hit themselves.... What would that 1) Look like. 2) Happen. And 3) When should my char start laughing at the other Char. This was soemthing that came up last night ... soemone actually managed to kill themselves with a double bladed. (as in swords at both ends). |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2003 : 15:59:57
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the claymore is just a scottish version of the French espadon but smaller. The espadon was the hugest of all swords, taller than the warrior fighting with it. It was actually only used in parads, shows, tournaments and sometimes by prison guards to intimidate people.
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2003 : 18:24:49
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Sorry to reply to this so late, mournblade.
Regarding the honor system for taking hits in the SCA, I imagine if you take major whacks and say to your opponent "Are you here to fight, or polish my aromor?", you get a reputation, and then people start really teeing off on you. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 15 May 2003 00:37:14 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2003 : 22:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
Sorry to reply to this so late, mournblade.
Regarding the honor system for taking hits in the SCA, I imagine if you take major whacks and say to your opponent "Are you here to fight, or polish my aromr?", you get a reputation, and then people start really teeing off on you.
Oh man no doubt!!!
My friend Sir Corwyn, dented someones breastplate because they said one of his shots was too light. (it wasn't, he was being numb). Corwyn is a roofer, and 55 years old now. He is a pretty cool figure in his Saxon armour.
I am never numb and I have plenty of bruises just from being hit NORMALLY!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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sabre
Acolyte
Turkey
47 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 12:05:24
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| About the chains;they are not specially racial weapon of the orcs.Ưn the campaign which we are playing there is a barbarian rogue fighter whom uses the spiked chain.and it is especially a good weapon cause you can make trip attacks,it has reach and if you be able to hit with both heads you can make rake attack immediatly.also you can use it in close melee without penalty. |
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Draith_Assassin_Pro
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2003 : 02:57:45
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| Basically.. The long sword is good and reliable |
Hi.. Names Draith :extends hand: |
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Bayne
Seeker
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2003 : 22:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Tenderfoot
I never thought about using Drow poison to tell you the truth. But I should look into that. Oh, and about the sword I was just joking so dont take offense to it or anything The Great Drizzt. I have been thinking about weapons what about those Drow Hand crossbows. Those are pretty nifty with anyone. (especially with Drow poison.
Darwin 
Those crossbows are highly concealable, so I recommend you getting one. |
Nindyn vel'uss kyorl nind ratha thalra elyhinn dal lil alust |
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weapons
