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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 07:09:15
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| I'm surprised that the ToT didn't change the stars, moreso that the Spellplague didn't. Just the sort of thing I'd expect, although (AFAIK) there's been no mention. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 20:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by see
But Khelben did say "That's one of the new constellations"; note the plural.
True. But do remember that constellations shift and change over time. What Realms folk see as constellations today, likely weren't recognisable as constellations 35,000 years ago. Khelben could merely have been referring to the shifting of stars and planets in the night's sky, over an extended period of time.
Um, no, he wasn't. If it had been gradual change over an extended period of time, Khelben wouldn't be saying the constellation showed up that very evening.
Here, I'll quote a larger section:
quote:
As Adon contemplated the future, a circle of eight points of light appeared before his eyes. At first, he thought the lights were a blind man's fancy and tried to make them go away. But they didn't fade. In fact, they grew stronger and brighter, until at last he recognizedthem as stars. In the center of the ring, a stream of red mist continually vied toward the bottom of the circle.
"Midnight!" Adon said, realizing that he was seeing the new goddess's symbol. A wave of tranquility rolled through his body, filling his heart with a deep sense of harmony. A moment later, he felt strong enough to sit up in his litter.
"What's wrong?" Blackstaff asked, turning to Adon.
The cleric could see Blackstaff’s tall form clearly. Behind the mage, one drunken griffon rider was leading another from the stable toward the tower.
"Nothing's wrong," Adon said. "I can see again."
"Ye also seem much stronger," Elminster commented.
"Yes," Adon sighed, pointing at the circle of stars overhead. "Midnight cured me."
Blackstaff looked at the stars. "That's one of the new constellations," he said. "It appeared this very evening. Do you know what it means?"
"It's Midnight's symbol," Adon replied. "And I swear by its light and the name of Lady Midnight that I'll gather a host of worshipers to honor it!"
Blackstaff studied the stars. "Then let me be your first."
So, we definitely have new constellations, one of which is the holy symbol of the newly-ascended Midnight, appearing in the sky in the very evening immediately following the ascension of Midnight and Cyric to divinity. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 21:47:27
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We need to go back to Realmspace for this.
FR's 'stars' are NOT the same as ours - they are just portals to the Plane of Radiance*. That means to create a new constellation, one would have to create a new set of portals (or shift around some old ones).
Which actually makes some sense, now that I think about it. Just looking through Realmspace right now, and I realize a LOT of whats in there can be applied to some newer lore that has come out since that product was released.
Other cosmic musings:
For instance - the Runes written on the shell itself - that is UNIQUE in all the universe (the text says as much). I have always felt that this was the physical manifestation of Mystra's Weave (also unique to Realmspace), as it represents the set of rules she put into place to govern Toril's magic.
If you combine this with some other lore, and the War of Light & Darkness, what we have around Realmspace is a VERY unique shell that is composed of darkness, with spaces of light between the darkness... which is the opposite of how Ed has described The Weave.
Hmmmmmm.... I may have been 180° wrong about WHAT Realmspace's Crystal Sphere is...
We also have a MASSIVE (12 miles!) skull floating in space (The Skull of the Void)... possibilities there... the remnants of some Primordial that died early-on, perhaps?
Also, the Wanderers... could these be the mortals who died before the Fugue plane was formed for Abeir-Toril? They had no place to go?
Interesting - I hope Gray sees this (and Shemmy & Rip, of course). The Forgotten Realms are like an enormous, complicated tapestry, and some times we have to pick-up the loose threads and see where they lead.
*Radiance again! Everything keeps coming back to this, even from the earliest supplements! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2010 21:50:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 23:15:07
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quote:
Originally posted by see
So, we definitely have new constellations, one of which is the holy symbol of the newly-ascended Midnight, appearing in the sky in the very evening immediately following the ascension of Midnight and Cyric to divinity.
We have one new constellation that appeared that night. The other new ones may have appeared months previously, even before the ToT kicked off.
I'm very much inclined to think that if any other deities suddenly had new constellations, Khelben would have said more than "oh, that's new, just showed up."
All we have here is a single point of data. It's not enough to extrapolate on. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 23:36:20
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But in light of other things (no pun intended), it would make sense that a new god would need a new set of portals (conduits) to the plane of Radiance.
This ties-in beautifully with some of my other musings concerning Pools and Moonwells - they function as 'outlets' that gods can 'plug into' for power.
Nothing canon, of course, just noticing how well this lore shoe-horns into my own. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 23:49:11
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quote:
Originally posted by see
So, we definitely have new constellations, one of which is the holy symbol of the newly-ascended Midnight, appearing in the sky in the very evening immediately following the ascension of Midnight and Cyric to divinity.
Sure. It was a new constellation that appeared at that moment. But that really doesn't invalidate what I said earlier. And Khelben is certainly old enough to have witnessed the creation/appearance of new constellations in the distant Realms past. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Big Mac
Acolyte
United Kingdom
28 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 14:00:10
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Sorry for the delay.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Big Mac
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Aside from Spelljammers (wich have mostly been ignored for two editions now), and a few lonely Sages who need to get out more, I don't think any groundlings really bother to keep track of the Tears, in regards to how many there really are, or bother to even name any of them.
That might be true if astrology did not exist in the Realms. But as astrology does exist, some people are going to be interested in the movement of the planets, the phases of the moon and the positions of the Tears of Selune.
IIRC, the astrologers of Kara-Tur got very exited when the Tears of Selune first popped into existance. (This was actually a relatively recent event.)
Having said that, astrologers (and other interested groundlings) will have a Toril-centric view of Realmspace. So rather than imagining the Tears of Selune as a disc, they will just see it as a scattered straight line.
In fact the entire "Sea of Night" concept, would imply a bunch of islands floating in a sea, rather than objects that are (in spme cases) as big as Toril itself.
As much as I love Spelljammer, I can't regard anything in Realmspace as being Realms canon. There are plenty of problems with lore in there, most notably the fact that almost none of it is confirmed in any Realms source, and some Realms stuff actually contradicts Realmspace.
If you need primary canon (rather than secondary canon) you have the tail end of the Geography chapter of the 3e FRCS (pages 230-231) giving you more specific information on the Tears of Selune than SJR2 ever did. It specifically describes them as "orbiting around a common centre in a whirlpool fashion" and refers to the centre of their orbit as a Trojan point (which as I said above, makes it the L5 point).
EDIT: I personally dislike the term "Trojan" being used for The Tears of Selune, as it originates from Greek mythology and brings cultural baggage with it. Greek mythology is brilliant, but but I'm not sure that any other FR or SJ source calls them "Trojan asteroids".
FRCS calls Realmspace "The Sea of Night" and that I would take to be the groundling name for the local Wildspace. I would personally even use it as the spacefarer name for the local Wildspace, but that - as you said, but the other way around - is not supported by SJ canon.
Anyhoo, Anadia and Coliar are there as The Dawn Heralds (and there is a comment about magic being used to work out what they look like). The other "worlds" from Realmspace are there as "The Five Wanderers" and are described as "inconsistent stars".
I don't actually like the idea of a PC/NPC on Toril having full knowledge of the universe, but I think that anyone who was a student of astrology or astronomy would know of "The Dawn Heralds" and "The Five Wanderers" and would have a (perhaps incorrect) concept of The Sea of Night.
Undermountain: Stardock and the Arcane Age products give you further canon references to Realmspace. Including a long history of spelljamming and a portal from Undermountain to the asteroid Stardock.
Evermeet: Island of Elves and Finder's Bane use spelljamming ships and Realms of Magic has a story connected to visiting spacefarers.
I don't think that this lot canonises everything from SJR2, but enough links are in there to canonise the planets of Realmspace and the fact that spacefarers are up there.
As far as I know, the two bits that don't get canonised are the stars (i.e them being portals to the Plane of Radiance) and the crystal sphere surrounding Toril. I'm sure a 4e or 5e designer could try to pull a Bobby Ewing and have Ao waking up in the shower and having a weird dream about being trapped in a sphere. 
quote:
No Realms source speaks of the sudden appearance of the Tears... And in the Grand History, there is a reference to the Tears having been created by accident during the Time of Dragons, which way predates that Shou reference.
Thanks for the heads-up on that. IIRC the Grand History came afterwards. I wonder why they chose to reboot that. I wonder if they were backing up an earlier FR source. 
BTW: I really like Markustay's workaround. There is a lot of "cosmic invisibility" being thrown around in Realmspace. Firsly you have the uber-spell that makes Selune look uninhabitable. Secondly you have the uber-spell that makes the entire Living Jungle campaign area appear to not be there. It would not hurt to have someone be responsible for all three spells. |
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Administrator - Spelljammer Wiki
https://spelljammer.fandom.com/
Chief Editor - Wildspace Magazine
https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=29589 |
Edited by - Big Mac on 20 Apr 2011 14:06:50 |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 19:41:15
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I'm sorry for responding to such an old thread, but the topic is pretty dear t me, as a Spelljammer DM. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I love Spelljammer, I can't regard anything in Realmspace as being Realms canon. There are plenty of problems with lore in there, most notably the fact that almost none of it is confirmed in any Realms source, and some Realms stuff actually contradicts Realmspace.
No Realms source speaks of the sudden appearance of the Tears... And in the Grand History, there is a reference to the Tears having been created by accident during the Time of Dragons, which way predates that Shou reference.
I agree that SJR2 Realmspace was a bad product that has very little Realms feel to it. But I don't think we should just toss it out as far as Realmslore and canon is concerned. At least for those running 1e or 2e Realms games. Obviously, for 3e and 4e WotC did toss out all references to SJ.
The reference to the recent appearence of the tears is an issue.
In the grey set, we see the Tears mention on p19 of the Cyclopedia of the Realms, nothing on thier origin, but it does say they are visible even when Selune is in the new phase, which seems impossible to me but I'm no expert on lunar orbits or astrophysics. This information is repeated on p4 of A Grand Tour of the Realms but the tears are said to be asteroids and debris. And they are still visible when the moon is new in the sky.
The first mention of the Tears appearing from nowhere that I'm aware of is from the AD&D comic, in the first story arc where Selune discusses them in relation to her conflict with Imig Zu. I don't recall if this is particularly datable, I can get to my AD&D comics but its a bit of a pain right now.
Now, why would the Grand History have this earlier date for the appearence of the Tears? Is this Time of Dragons created something that the GHotR author create whole cloth, or did it come from an earlier source?
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 17:00:06
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Once again, its easily reconcilable.
The Eastern Realms (Kara-Tur) has its own pantheon, and its own 'powers'... quite a lot of them, actually. For whatever reason, the Tears of Selune were obscured from the Eastern Realms until fairly recently (it probably had something to do with their own mythology taking precedence over that of the west).
We have no way of knowing why this was, or why this changed - we'd have to know the precise nature of the Tears, and I fear thats one of those 'Deeper Secrets' Ed has mentioned many times.
What I do find IMMENSELY interesting - and THANK YOU GMWestermeyer for pointing this out - is that they are apparently SELF-ILLUMINATING! 
I had several different theories about what they might actually be, and this pretty-much confirms one of them.
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
The first mention of the Tears appearing from nowhere that I'm aware of is from the AD&D comic, in the first story arc where Selune discusses them in relation to her conflict with Imig Zu. I don't recall if this is particularly datable, I can get to my AD&D comics but its a bit of a pain right now.
I am DEFINITELY interested in more about this - I never read any of the comics, sadly. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Apr 2013 17:02:43 |
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Big Mac
Acolyte
United Kingdom
28 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 20:39:15
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I don't think the Tears of Selune need to be self-illuminating to be visible at the same time as Selune, while full. They are as close to Toril as Selune itself is, so if Selune gets more light on its visible surface, then the Tears could also have more light falling on their visible surfaces. And if more light falls on the side of the Tears facing Toril, they should also look brighter. I think that each Tear would have phases, just like a spherical moon would, and they would get brighter and darker over the same time period as Selune itself.
I'm not sure if the fact that they follow Selune would create a delay in their phases, but that would seem to make sense. If you want to run them with a delayed phase, then you need to work out how far behind Selune they are. The 3e FRCS book said that they were "Trojan asteroids" which would put the centre of the Tears of Selune at the L5 point in my mind. I'm not sure how much delay that would introduce, but it should be possible for some or all of the Tears of Selune to be eclipsed, when Selune is slightly ahead of the point where it would be eclipsed.
I'm not sure what the mathematics would be, but it would be interesting to know if it would be possible for Selune and all the Tears of Selune to be eclipsed in a single night.
And just as Selune could make a solar eclipse, I think that the Tears of Selune could also pass in front of the sun. They would not eclipse it, as they are too small, but they would do a "Transit of the Tears" across the surface of the sun. A Transit of the Tears would be of interest to astrologers and astronomers and would probably be easily visible from Toril, as it would create a scattering of dark dots across the surface of the sun, while the Tears of Selune were between Toril and its sun.
I can see something like this being useful for "natural magic". There is a film called Ladyhawk, where two people are given a curse that can only end when there is a night within a day and a day within a night (and that turns out to be an eclipse). I think that certain things in the Realms that only work at night might happen during the day during an eclipse or a Transit of the Tears. |
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Administrator - Spelljammer Wiki
https://spelljammer.fandom.com/
Chief Editor - Wildspace Magazine
https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=29589 |
Edited by - Big Mac on 27 Apr 2013 20:42:08 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 14:30:44
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What I got out of all that is that they are ALWAYS visible, even when most of Selune is not, which means they are not dependent on reflected sunlight for their 'glow'.
Of course, some of the SJ material disagree with all that, but not all the tears may be from the same source. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Big Mac
Acolyte
United Kingdom
28 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 17:11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I got out of all that is that they are ALWAYS visible, even when most of Selune is not, which means they are not dependent on reflected sunlight for their 'glow'.
Of course, some of the SJ material disagree with all that, but not all the tears may be from the same source.
I don't think the SJ material says anything about how the Tears look from Toril.
Where did you see that they are visible when Selune is dark? That sounds pretty interesting. I'd love to read the exact quote.
I suppose that if the Tears are in a loose disc, with gaps between them, light could come in from the side, bounce off of one asteroid and give another asteroid indirect light. |
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Administrator - Spelljammer Wiki
https://spelljammer.fandom.com/
Chief Editor - Wildspace Magazine
https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=29589 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 01:19:39
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Allot of stuff was posted, and I really honestly, did not want to read through all of it (lol)
but one of the tears and sky is detailed in one of the 4e publications that deal with moonshae? |
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Big Mac
Acolyte
United Kingdom
28 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 23:30:09
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Allot of stuff was posted, and I really honestly, did not want to read through all of it (lol)
but one of the tears and sky is detailed in one of the 4e publications that deal with moonshae?
I know that Blades of the Moonsea: Book II: Corsair detailed a Tear of Selune called Neshuldaar.
Do you mean that or something else? |
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Administrator - Spelljammer Wiki
https://spelljammer.fandom.com/
Chief Editor - Wildspace Magazine
https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=29589 |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 01:59:13
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| I realize that this info is a bit belated given the age of the op...however, the original stars were created by Selune early on in her battle with Shar was upset with Selune for bring light and warmth to Toril/Chauntea. The first stars Selune created were snuffed out one by one by Shar, so Selune created millions of new stars (whether they were portals or gems I don't recall the specifics, though I thought that both have been mentioned in the creation of the star stories. |
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The night's sky in the realms...
