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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
 Posted - 14 May 2009 : 12:11:07
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I can see selective breeding and harsh "natural" selection working for rich nobles with tons of resources. But what of your average Drow? Does a commoner woman seek out the toughest guy she can, seduce him, and become a single mom as part of a premeditated plan?
It seems likely to me that commoner Drow lead lives that would be more recognizable to the average human. I don't see how any female without extensive resources could possibly take the risk of getting pregnant in Drow society as it is commonly envisioned. |
Edited by - Ozzalum on 14 May 2009 13:40:30 |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 15:51:31
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Well Ozzalum, I would agree commoner Drow would lead lives more recognizable by the average human except for the fact that females are physically larger and stronger, so you would see many roles reversed.
This is why female commoner drow fighters make a lot of sense. They are physically suited to the job. I think a lot of confusion is from the art which does not always depict the size and strength advantage of the females.
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I can see selective breeding and harsh "natural" selection working for rich nobles with tons of resources. But what of your average Drow? Does a commoner woman seek out the toughest guy she can, seduce him, and become a single mom as part of a premeditated plan?
It seems likely to me that commoner Drow lead lives that would be more recognizable to the average human. I don't see how any female without extensive resources could possibly take the risk of getting pregnant in Drow society as it is commonly envisioned.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 15:57:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Well Ozzalum, I would agree commoner Drow would lead lives more recognizable by the average human except for the fact that females are physically larger and stronger, so you would see many roles reversed.
This is why female commoner drow fighters make a lot of sense. They are physically suited to the job. I think a lot of confusion is from the art which does not always depict the size and strength advantage of the females.
The artwork usually focuses on the size of specific portions of the drow female anatomy.  |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 17:06:37
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| Indeed it does. And now I have another question. Is the absurd S&M attire restricted to the nobles who can afford bracers of defense? Is chainmail just really difficult to draw? |
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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 17:13:12
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I think that commoners while living lives recognizable to humans. I do believe there would be alot that is different. The first thing is that I believe that even commoner drow would be cruel and ruthless.
Drow commoners would have various jobs, some merchants, some slavers and so on. unlike human societies I believe that even commoners would be willing to assassinate, or do what they can to destroy their rivals. I also believe that many commoners form commoner groups that serve some of the great houses of the cities in various functions. Whether it is bodyguards of the nobles, to supplying their patron house with a supply of slaves, you get the picture. drow society as a whole is cruel and ruthless throughout.
Also drow art, as wooly said is made to advertise certain features about the female body. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 17:21:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
Indeed it does. And now I have another question. Is the absurd S&M attire restricted to the nobles who can afford bracers of defense? Is chainmail just really difficult to draw?
I think it's mostly just fan service, but someone in the industry recently explained to me that it's easier to just draw the body than it is to draw it and put clothes on it. |
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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 17:22:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
Indeed it does. And now I have another question. Is the absurd S&M attire restricted to the nobles who can afford bracers of defense? Is chainmail just really difficult to draw?
Personally, IMO drow would not wear S&M gear all the time as they have been portrayed. A drow, IMO, does not want to reveal much skin in public. The reason is simple an assassin could easily kill her/him. A drow also does not want to reveal everything to others, for the fact that would be used against them. I do imagine robes would be used by nobles. I am not quite sure how hard it is to draw and color chainsaw, I am not an artist so can not really say.
The difference between the nobles and commoner equipment, is mostly the materials and the enchantments. A commoner for instance may have a cloak of rothe wool while a noble may have an enchanted cloak made from silk. |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 17:34:33
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Herkles, I don't really disagree with the notion that Drow society is cruel through and through, but let me explore the situation of a female Drow commoner a little.
Let's say a commoner female feels a desire to have a child. I assume this basic instinct exists among the Drow. How is she going to pull this feat off? Sure, she can probably find some guy willing or can be made willing to get her pregnant. That step is easy, but I think that is where the fun ends for her.
Can you imagine being pregnant in such a society? You can say that the Drow are completely ruthless, but surely a female would have to have strong allies she could trust before putting herself in such a vulnerable position. Who protects her when she can't? Does the father have an investment in his child in Drow society?
And after going through such an ordeal, she is supposed to basically treat her child as a readily disposable asset? Snakes, fish, and alligators can afford to do that, but they have tons of offspring at a time.
I am beginning to think all this ruthlessness and unmitigated evil is really just the whimsy of the upper class. It's unsustainable at the level of commoners. "Someday I'll win the lotto kid, and then you're gonna be sacrificed to Lolth." |
Edited by - Ozzalum on 14 May 2009 17:36:13 |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 17:42:20
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| And Wooly, you are right. It is easier, generally speaking, to not have to draw much clothing. There are lots of models out there in bikinis but not too many in flowing robes or full plate. However, I think I have about the same level of annoyance with half naked warriors that you have with purple-skinned Drow. If Salvatore says the Drow fighters are wearing chainmail, suck it up and paint the chainmail. |
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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 17:52:43
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I do agree there is a diffrence between the commoners and the nobles in terms of how they act in regards to being cruel. But really, drow society frowns on love, kindness and mercy. It is an -evil- and -cruel- society.
Commoner women would most likly have a favored male, they value. Maybe not trust, their society goes against that. anyways, the drow couple would stay together not out of trust or love but out of the fact their ablities complement their own greedy and evil ambitions. This is not a couple like we know, but one made out of needs of selfishness.
As for the child, it depends. The biggest thing to me, is how will the child serve me well. Training and raising of the child, would be for the whole family not just the parents. The thing is though, is to make the child serve the family's interests. If the drow child was not turning out to be a useful assets to the family, I would imagine they would sacrifice him/her to Lolth to get a blessing. Maybe a better child next time or something more along the lines of destroying their enemies.
Yes, commoners are probably not as openly ruthless but their position is extremely cutthroat IMO.
What I said above, probably applies to the noblity as well. Take a noble daughter of the matron. She would IMO rather have a male as her consort that complements her skills, is not going to plot against her that often, and basically be useful to her then just some random servant who is also lower in status. A noble daughter would need to have a basis of support and She would probaly have a dependable and loyal male to serve her as a basis of her support. Maybe it is a powerful mage, or warrior, or a deadly assassin, well you get the idea. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 18:12:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
And Wooly, you are right. It is easier, generally speaking, to not have to draw much clothing. There are lots of models out there in bikinis but not too many in flowing robes or full plate. However, I think I have about the same level of annoyance with half naked warriors that you have with purple-skinned Drow. If Salvatore says the Drow fighters are wearing chainmail, suck it up and paint the chainmail.
Oh, that stuff annoys me, too. And it's not just warrior-chics in sexy armor that bugs me, either. Pretty much all fantasy art puts women in highly impractical attire. Either it's armor that only protects a couple of choice locales, or it's wizard robes that are slit up to the armpits and have necklines going down to the knees, or something ridiculous like that. Yeah, I like looking at partially or fully unclad attractive females, but I'm really not expecting to find half-naked babes fighting a dragon. |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 19:43:31
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The long slits in robes may be necessary for the more challenging somatic components of a spell.
The S&M attire of the Drow may be explained by the influence of Lolth's clergy. While she is no Loviatar, that well may be the preferred garb of the goddess. As the trend setters for the Drow race, the clergy of Lolth would be highly influential style.
Similarly, I think the Underdark lends itself to light armors (though perhaps not always the S&M cut variety). A heavily clad female warrior would have a hard time recovering from a fall or climbing a rock face in the depths of the Underdark.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
And Wooly, you are right. It is easier, generally speaking, to not have to draw much clothing. There are lots of models out there in bikinis but not too many in flowing robes or full plate. However, I think I have about the same level of annoyance with half naked warriors that you have with purple-skinned Drow. If Salvatore says the Drow fighters are wearing chainmail, suck it up and paint the chainmail.
Oh, that stuff annoys me, too. And it's not just warrior-chics in sexy armor that bugs me, either. Pretty much all fantasy art puts women in highly impractical attire. Either it's armor that only protects a couple of choice locales, or it's wizard robes that are slit up to the armpits and have necklines going down to the knees, or something ridiculous like that. Yeah, I like looking at partially or fully unclad attractive females, but I'm really not expecting to find half-naked babes fighting a dragon.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 21:22:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
The long slits in robes may be necessary for the more challenging somatic components of a spell.
So spells can't be cast without showing cleavage or gams? Why is it that male mages don't seem to need that kind of mobility?
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Similarly, I think the Underdark lends itself to light armors (though perhaps not always the S&M cut variety). A heavily clad female warrior would have a hard time recovering from a fall or climbing a rock face in the depths of the Underdark.
Men wouldn't have those issues? Besides, it's not just the light armor angle -- it's the amount of exposed skin. What good is armor that leaves thighs and midriff uncovered? Are weapons only going to hit the armored leg, or only the upper chest? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 22:05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So spells can't be cast without showing cleavage or gams? Why is it that male mages don't seem to need that kind of mobility?
Male wizards do have that mobility... They're going 'commando'. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 09:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
Yeah, that Nimor character didn't seem to have much to fear. He really brought home the game breaking mechanics of shadow magic. I was confused at how his knife passes right through armor but for whatever reason still damages tissue. That's a neat trick if you can pull it off.
Nono ... not shadow magic. The problem with all these Patron Fathers* is their level and race:
Nimor Imphraezl (male drow / half-shadow dragon, Rog3/Ftr4/Asn9)
That's well beyond drow matrons and many a house- and archwizard too. It's almost like Drizzt running about among all those orc warriors (and I mean the NPC class).
*Listed in Dragons of Faerūn.
The web-enhancement to said book gives you a good rundown on the Jaezred'Chaulssin, drow-dragons and all. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 15 May 2009 09:43:52 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 15:55:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So spells can't be cast without showing cleavage or gams?
LOL!
quote:
What good is armor that leaves thighs and midriff uncovered?
Umm, it's magical armor, that magically protects those parts? |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 16:45:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What good is armor that leaves thighs and midriff uncovered?
That's something adressed in e.g. AD&D's Complete Fighters' HB and amazons. In short, distract the opponent (at least once ... but that's often enough).
Ed uses a similar theme in his book about (non-FR) dark elves, Dark Warrior Rising. In there a drow lass (I couldn't for the love of *enter a deity of your choice* find out whether she actually is a priestess or not (since she did not cast a spell so far)) is fighting pretty often bare-chested and a lot (as in A LOT) of her attackers look at her a split second too long.
Same actually applies to that grand thief Pennae of the Knights of Myth Drannor series ...
But you are correct. Unless they use bracers of armor +5, these kind of equipment would seem out of place on anyone bar some Loviatans. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 15 May 2009 16:47:34 |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 19:27:51
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Zanan now that you mention it that is actually a classic trick from the old Conan stories. Eyes would always linger just a bit too long on the slope of the breast and the ogler would pay for it.
I was glad that in the Lady Penitent we saw Drow priestesses in full armor (Catavina). I always wondered how Eilistrae's followers survived combat half dressed.
I imagine a lower caste fighting female Drow would wear fairly mundane, and somewhat heavy armor. Since they aren't priestesses, they wouldn't have to wear any particular vestments, but they would also lack the light, magical armor of the upper castes.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What good is armor that leaves thighs and midriff uncovered?
That's something adressed in e.g. AD&D's Complete Fighters' HB and amazons. In short, distract the opponent (at least once ... but that's often enough).
Ed uses a similar theme in his book about (non-FR) dark elves, Dark Warrior Rising. In there a drow lass (I couldn't for the love of *enter a deity of your choice* find out whether she actually is a priestess or not (since she did not cast a spell so far)) is fighting pretty often bare-chested and a lot (as in A LOT) of her attackers look at her a split second too long.
Same actually applies to that grand thief Pennae of the Knights of Myth Drannor series ...
But you are correct. Unless they use bracers of armor +5, these kind of equipment would seem out of place on anyone bar some Loviatans.
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 20:09:32
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Well Ozzalum the cover art was NOT how she was described in the book. Nowhere in Smedan's text did I find references to a bosom exploding out of a breastplate.
I think the artist took some license.
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
That Catavina really was a prude, all covered up in the full plate.
http://www.o-love.net/realms/covers_large/pic_lad2.jpg
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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 23:52:04
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I imagine all drow, weather noble or not,would use looted items. So it is possible that a commoner could have a powerful item. Hey if you were hired by a noble house to assassinate a noble's rival, wouldn't you take some trinkets to help yourself out after killing a noble?
But on the whole commoners would have less quality of items then nobles. I do want to know, do drow wear or use plate armor? or is it to heavy for them to use? |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 09:03:56
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I never realized that cover art was suppossed to be Cavatina. I had assumed it was a Priestess of Kiaransalee for some reason.
Also, I think being able to move freely is a great asset in combat, although this isn't really reflected in game mechanics...hence why Eilistraeean priestesses do just fine with less armor. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 10:06:36
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Please, let's bury the myth here once more. Eilistraee's priestesses do NOT walk around half-naked, or, half-clad, for that matter. They do occasionally dance on a moonlit glade as part of a prayer to the Dark Maiden. They have a ritual ONCE a year where they hunt some monster only armed (and clad) with a bastard sword. THAT is not their normal clothing though. They will wear any sort of garb and armor that you would expect from a (drow) priestess, on the surface most likely very akin to that of the Selūnites.
Demihuman Deities:
Priestly Vestments: Priests of Eilistraee wear their hair long, and dress practically for whatever they are currently doing. For rituals, they wear as little as possible. Otherwise, they tend to wear soft leathers for hunting, aprons while cooking, and - when battle is expected-armor. When relaxing, they favor silvery, diaphanous gowns. The holy symbol of the faith is a silver sword pendant the length of a Dark Lady's hand. Such symbols are typically worn as pins or hung around the neck on a slender silver or mithral chain.
Adventuring Garb: Eilistraee's clergy must garb themselves in either magical armor or armor of drow make. Whenever possible, priests of the Dark Maiden must use swords in battle. If no swords are at hand but other bladed weapons are available, they must be used in reference to other weapons. Long bows and silver-tipped arrows are also commonly employed as secondary weapons. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 16 May 2009 10:09:29 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 14:10:57
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races of faerun stated that drow dont like to use armor that messes with their natural dexterity.
light armor and mythral would be my guess, either that or armor with cut outs.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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Magister's GAmbit
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 14:33:25
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Another case of the art taking precedence over the text. Those artists need to be more careful with the power they wield.
So, Eilistraee... Would she have more pull with the common Drow? Who makes up her ranks of priestesses and lay people? Are they largely nobles or commoners? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2009 : 16:13:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
Another case of the art taking precedence over the text. Those artists need to be more careful with the power they wield.
So, Eilistraee... Would she have more pull with the common Drow? Who makes up her ranks of priestesses and lay people? Are they largely nobles or commoners?
I'd imagine she has greater pull with commoners, since the noble females generally go for Lolth. |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2009 : 02:27:57
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| I would have thought so too, but again the only characters you read about seem to be nobles. Is it just a function of everyone being a high level character so no commoners need apply? |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2009 : 08:16:34
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| I'd like to point out that no two armors in fantasy ever look alike. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2009 : 08:25:33
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I'd like to point out that no two armors in fantasy ever look alike.
And few look realistic. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2009 : 10:26:34
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| Dunno, most of my drow troops wear darkened (the mundane way) drow chain shirts or chain mail and thus look pretty much the same ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Fighting Female Drow
