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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2009 : 17:57:43
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From the Thread on Illmateri paladins and combat ethics:
quote:Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:Originally posted by rjfras
Sorry for taking this away from Ilmater a bit, but I just had to say something about Eldath and it could apply to Ilmater a bit too as far as protecting people.
quote:Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Another thought: Another (IMO) ignored aspect of Paladinhood is this- we think of Pallies as Holy Warriors...and then put all the emphasis on the Holy and tend to ignore the Warrior. Faiths that support Paladins do so because they see a world in which being shocked and sad isn't going to always be enough: IMO, these faiths understand that while high moral ideals are the core of the faith, sometimes, you just need bigger guns and better men. This is why (for instance) Eldath doesn't have Holy Warriors- they don't agree with the above statement, and would rather be killed themselves than 'contribute to evil' (as they see it) by fighting back.
Again, I know it's a tad off-topic, but this is a subject to which I've given some thought. Hope it helps.
quote:Originally posted by rjfras
Why do people keep saying this or things along this line about followers of Eldath? I mean if you read the entries on her, you can see that her followers will fight and will kill, they just try other things first, but to think that they just stand there and let themselves be killed is ridiculous as there soon would be no more followers...
From the Dogma in Faiths & Avatars: They may defend but not punish. Eldathyn may work violence only to defend, and they may slay no thing of the forest save to prevent it from slaying themselves or another under their protection.
also from farther down in the dogma: They must swear to take no thinking life save in direst need
Her druids use weapons that are made for killing and not subduing like sickles, darts, spears, daggers and scimitars.
Her specialty priests can use weapons with restrictions which state: Peacemen and Peacewomen cannot fight, except to defend themselves and those with them. They may not initiate attacks, charges or ambushes. They are pacifists.
And while they may not always do the killing themselves when they are forced to kill in direct combat, they will do stuff to get enemies killed as stated by Ed himself in one of his many answers here on CK: "An Eldathyn often "fights" by opening a dam and unleashing a downstream flood, luring foes into the jaws and claws of a known predatory monster or into quicksand, and so on"
quote:Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I was saying that many faiths in the Realms feel that sometimes you can't negotiate with the despot next door, you have to invade his realm and put things to rights by force. The Eldathyn would never do that. They might try to undermine him politically or something, but they would in no way support the use of force to solve the problem... since that's the definition of pacifism. Which is why I pointed out that they don't have 'holy warriors', since to the Eldathyn, that term is an oxymoron. And to the point: The followers of Eldath should really only be fighting undead, extraplanars, and (maybe) abominations. The statement 'They must swear to take no thinking life save in direst need' is telling- to most Eldathyn, simply saving their own lives isn't 'direst need'. After all, won't they just be going to the heavens and enjoying eternal peace if they die? So where's the dire need to prevent that?
To be honest, I've always thought that Eldath only survived because she was (irony of ironies) protected by Tempus, and because she, herself was very active in personally protecting her followers.
All of which is way off topic, anyway. Perhaps a new thread?
quote:Originally posted by rjfras
Now, see, your taking one line of the post and basing your statement off that.. what about the line right above that one "to prevent it from slaying themselves or another under their protection." If you do not consider losing your life a dire need, well, then you don't value life much. Not many people want to die, if they don't have to, even if they are going go to their version of "heaven" afterward. Now once they do die many choose not to come back from the dead, but most do not go out of their way to get killed or just let themselves be killed, except for the times when someone sacrifices themselves for the greater good or to prevent others being killed and those are usually portrayed as heroic instances, not some senseless death or as crazy, insane or full on extremists such as terrorists and such, but they think they are doing it for the greater good of their religion or beliefs and are sacrificing themselves.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 28 Apr 2009 18:04:39
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2009 : 18:14:08
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Alright- to respond to the last portion of the above: I think that a devout follower of Eldath WOULD rather die than kill another sentient. Anything that's been written contrary to that is just an attempt to make Eldath-worshippers playable in regular adventuring parties.
I can totally see a less-devout worshipper rationalizing the act of killing for self-defense, and especially see it in the case of protecting others. But, IMO, it's just that: Rationalization.
I appreciate that you're working from F+A, an excellent reference material, and one I don't like to argue with. I think your argument has merit.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Eldathyn and Combat (Thread Moved)
