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Mythander
Learned Scribe
USA
121 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jul 2003 : 16:59:37
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This came up in an unrelated thread and I thought that it deserved its own topic.
I feel when a writer bases a novel off of events from real world history that is takes away from a novel.
Books like Maztica which granted are an original story, but the bases were taken from the conquistadores exploring the new world. Now don't get me wrong, I am aware that even the construction of the realms was taken in part from some of the real world. I just feel that novels should not follow the same direction as history.
What are your thoughts?
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Wow! That has no saving throw written all over it. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2003 : 17:07:29
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| I disagree in using real-world history. Now I know people will say that FR is based on a mediaeval period, but thats just the fantasy genre and how it is. Using oriental\aztec\mongolian settings isnt appealing at all to me. Thats not to say that i didnt enjoy novels such as Horselords and Dragonwall, theyre excellent reads, but I read them as novels, not as FR novels. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Malanthius
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2003 : 17:20:32
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I think it's okay to use Real world history as a starting point, but you shouldn't let what happened in Real history affect how things in the story turn out. Case in point, Maztica, why should the helmites and the rest nessesarily win out against the natives?
Mal. |
"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's." |
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Mythander
Learned Scribe
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2003 : 17:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Rad
Thats not to say that i didnt enjoy novels such as Horselords and Dragonwall, theyre excellent reads, but I read them as novels, not as FR novels.
I agree they were great books. I also look at them as outside of the realms. |
Wow! That has no saving throw written all over it. |
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Mythander
Learned Scribe
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2003 : 17:25:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Malanthius
I think it's okay to use Real world history as a starting point, but you shouldn't let what happened in Real history affect how things in the story turn out. Case in point, Maztica, why should the helmites and the rest nessesarily win out against the natives?
Mal.
Great point! If Fantasy is in fact Fantasy, why should it be held to those types of outcomes? I would have loved to have seen the helmites spanked and sent home. |
Wow! That has no saving throw written all over it. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2003 : 18:23:51
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To quote Ed just once,quote:
I DON'T model the Realms closely on our real world, ever (it smashes good roleplaying, because gamers are forever behaving on the basis of real-world things, or what they think they know of the real world because of what schooling or Hollywood told them of what is/was 'real'), but do echo 'feel and feature' when it seems right to do so.
Especially during the 90s, TSR ignored this basic principle and based several regions and events on those of Earth, compromising the integrity of the worldbuilding and setting up just the expectations Ed mentions above even for the majority of the Realms that doesn't use analogues with our world. The published Realms is full of these infidelities: the heavily marketed Avatar series set up an expectation for Realms-shattering event novels over the world's swords & sorcery basis; Jim Lowder's horde trilogy deliberately used the Realms for historical fantasy almost just, as it seems, because he could, and those books suffer as all stories adapted from Earth history do: they're not as interesting as the real thing. The same applies to the pointless Once Around the Realms and Mage in the Iron Mask novels. The Maztica books overwrote Ed's Anchoromé and cluttered the Realms with whole continents of white-elephant refuse that doesn't feel like the Realms proper. Zakhara was attached to the Realms seemingly for marketing reasons, since Faerűn already had an Arabian-influenced region in Calimshan and isn't strengthened by Zakhara any more than Zakhara gains from being on Toril.
Now Wizards is seemingly respecting Ed's 'no Earth copies' policy, the exceptions stand out even more starkly. Let's hope this continues. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2003 : 06:55:42
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Indeed. We all hope for this Faraer.
As for the general question presented by this scroll, I would have to agree with Rad on this. I enjoy fantasy because it has elements that books and novels based on real world events and facts don't have. When I read a novel (such as the Empires trilogy) that has incorporated earth-like events into a fantasy setting, I feel that I am not reading anything that is particularly expansive or that builds upon the history of the setting as a whole. No matter how small any event that is portrayed in the FR novels, each becomes part of the setting's history, and that fact is more important to me, than any incorporation of real world events.
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Mythander
Learned Scribe
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2003 : 16:46:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
Indeed. We all hope for this Faraer.
As for the general question presented by this scroll, I would have to agree with Rad on this. I enjoy fantasy because it has elements that books and novels based on real world events and facts don't have. When I read a novel (such as the Empires trilogy) that has incorporated earth-like events into a fantasy setting, I feel that I am not reading anything that is particularly expansive or that builds upon the history of the setting as a whole. No matter how small any event that is portrayed in the FR novels, each becomes part of the setting's history, and that fact is more important to me, than any incorporation of real world events.
I understand you point and I did really enjoy the Empires Trilogy. There is one problem I have and granted it is a small one, since my love of the realms is great. When you use a part of real world history no matter how small, you create a parallel between the worlds. I feel that these parallels although small take a little away from the pure creative background of the realms.
I am heartened by Faraer's post about Wizards moving away from this trend.
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Wow! That has no saving throw written all over it. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2003 : 17:45:40
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I don't have a problem with it -- if the story isn't lifted wholesale out of real history. Otherwise, it's a lack of imagination.
For a while, I didn't like any of David Drake's books; he would take stories from history and remake them for the future. He did one for Jason and the Argonauts, and it felt really artificial. He did a short story for my favorite SF novel series (which I've mentioned so many times, I doubt I need to risk Alaundo's staff again) that was a piece of *&^%$, also based on some old story (I don't remember which).
Some of the stuff he's coauthored is good though, like the Belisarius books. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2003 : 07:04:36
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I posted this elsewhere but it seems to fit better here now that the new scroll is up:
I often base CONCEPTS off of history, but I would not presume to mimic it in a novel. (Historical Fiction is its own genre where History DOES belong). For instance I have been running some games in Amn, and I treat Amn as Medieval Spain, a crossroads culture where Christian and Muslim art, customs, and ideals sometimes overlapped (until 1492 anyway). For the realms this is the area where the Arabian culture of Calimshan and the shoon starts to manifest. I don't mind the idea of Conquistadors, for example I often describe the Amn army guards with Morions (A type of helmet characteristic of Conquistadors, and 16th century europe). I liek that there is a Kara Tur and Steppes land so that I have the oppurtunity to bring those influences into the realms. But I do not think there needs to be a GHenghis Khan. Especially when a couple War Wizards could wipe the real Khan out.
I have also set up the moonshaes as being a type of Mirror to the culture of the Isles. Such as Moray is based off Scottish culture, Gwynneth is based off Irish, Snowdonia is Welsh, and Alaron is Cornish and Norman. For me D&D is a way for me to experiment and learn more about those cultures, creating adventures with those cultural devices in them.
But to read an entire SERIES of novels as a hsotory rehash is somewhat taxing and disappointing. I like reading and spotting the historical ELEMENTS, just not the Historical EVENTS.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2003 : 10:37:17
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| In essence it is up to the author on what he/she decides to base their novel on. However if I pick up a book and it uses real world history, events and politics I get turned off because this tells me take the author lacks any real imagination or is unwilling to dive off the deep end and see where their imagination takes them. I like books with a little bit of creativity that doesn't borrow ideas and hammer it to death just to get a point across. |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2003 : 20:28:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lina
In essence it is up to the author on what he/she decides to base their novel on. However if I pick up a book and it uses real world history, events and politics I get turned off because this tells me take the author lacks any real imagination or is unwilling to dive off the deep end and see where their imagination takes them. I like books with a little bit of creativity that doesn't borrow ideas and hammer it to death just to get a point across.
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DITTO
I love history,always have always will.But as Lina says, I want just a little imagination.If they author is just trying to finish a book
and has no creativity then they can keep it and read it themselves.
But is not to worry,A degree doesn't make you a writer (it helps)and
If you don't please the public then your list of books written will
be very short.As a famous quote says:You can fool some of the people
some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all the time. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2003 : 06:08:19
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The only sort of historical fiction I like is something that moves something in a new direction -- in other words, alternate timelines. The explorations of the what-ifs of history.
I mentioned the Belisaurius books up there. That's an amazing story about a general of the Eastern Roman Empire (who actually existed) who is 'found' by a crystaline entity from the (very) far future. This entity possesses all the knowledge of the human race, but can't act on it's own -- it's basically an intelligent computer. It's come back in time to rewrite history. (No, don't think Terminator. This is a whole lot better.)
Another faction from the far future sent a robot back to start a eugenics program (to keep the human race 'pure') and actually succeeded. In the space of a few years, the Eastern Roman Empire was overrun by the Malwa, a people from India. (Highly stratified class system = good breeding ground for eugenics.) They did it with the help of gunpowder and steam engines, using brute force.
That's what the AI (Aide) has come to stop. As it traveled in time, it 'saw' what happened, and showed it to Belisaurius. It (later decides to be a he) also shows him technologies to stop it. The first weapon? No, not gunpowder. You'd think so wouldn't you? No, it's the stirrup.
All beyond that, it's an exploration of cultures (there's a great bit about what it is to be 'Roman' in one of the books, and why marrying only in your own 'class' weakens your society) against the backdrop of the man who was possibly the greatest general of all time finally getting the tools he needed to let his genius run free.
Another book would be The Proteus Operation, by James P. Hogan. That's the only alternate history I've ever read where the timeline they end up with is our own. It's the story of World War II . . . and how it never happened . . . until someone went back in time. And then it's the story of travellers from that new time who want to change things again. Very compelling.
Guns of the South is possibly the best alternate American Civil War story ever written. Time travellers go give the Confederates AK-47s, and the War is over two years sooner. But that's not the point of the story -- in fact, the war is over before the book's halfway point. It's all about the cultural changes. I'd tell you more, but it would ruin it.
The 'Event' trilogy is also excellent. The island of Nantucket (US East Coast, for the non-US members) is the victim of a cosmic accident and finds itself around 3,000 years in the past. Some desert and make off with most of the guns, and start forging an empire in what would have been Greece. It's up to the new Republic of Nantucket to stop them. On the way, you get some great depictions of Bronze Age cultures, like the people of England, Spain, Greece, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and the Americas. (Warning, though! On my rating scale, this forced me to create an 'R-2' rating, and it is the only one to occupy that spot on my list. Adults only.)
And finally, 1632. The story of a West Virginian mining town that gets dumped in the middle of Germany (Thuringia, to be exact) in the year 1631 -- right smack in the middle of the Thirty Years' War, one of the bloodiest wars in all of history -- including the World Wars. It's time to start the American Revolution -- 245 years ahead of schedual! This recently had a sequel that matched the first, and there are more planed. An anthology comes out in January. Great depictions of technological and tactical ingenuity (assaulting the enemy camp at night with ELVIS music? bring on the psych warfare!), but again, the focus is always on cultures, at all levels.
Why did I go through all of that? Because a good story should always be about the people, not the plot. Some people (including my brother, sometimes) treat the characters as just there to help the plot along. But all the greats (Tolkein, Webber, Flint, Edddings) go the other way around.
That's why the Maztica trilogy, and others like it, weren't so good. In fact, the only parts of that above trilogy that might have saved it were the characters when they weren't acting out the parts of Cortez and Pizaro and sundry. A good story almost never focuses on the plot before the characters.
It's really just the same story gamers deal with -- role-playing or roll-playing? One focuses on the characters and how they act and especially interact, while the other is basically all a two-dimensional plot with two-dimensional characters.
I'm sure you'll all agree with me that the Drizzt books would never have been as successful if it were all about actions, and not about the characters. Take those little 'essays' in some of the books -- aren't they just wonderful? Such insight into the characters. And then showing Drizzt as he ventures on his own, loosing his humanity (I use that word deliberately, since it's not really a species thing) because of the loneliness. And then his wonder as he explores the surface, a place alien to anything he has ever encountered in the wilds of the Underdark.
That's good story. Feelings, thoughts, moral delimas, the works. You'll never be a good writer if you can't express these things.
And William, the actual quote, I believe, goes like this:
You can fool some of the people all of the time.
You can fool all of the people some of the time.
But you can never fool all of the people all of the time.
-- Abraham Lincoln
. . . but you got it close enough. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2003 : 20:03:57
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I think that NOT using real world inspiration in your writing is a TERRIBLE mistake...
By the same "no-real-world-stuff" philosophy, would that include the use of your own personal emotions concerning love when writing about relationships? As a writer (admittedly, an amateur, and not a very good one, although Alaundo seems to disagree  ), it seems ridiculous not to incorporate real life situations...
Look at Salvatore...during the 80's, notice that Drizzt was very worried about himself, his soul, his own life - a very 80's attitude. During the Politically Correct 90's, Drizzt's thoughts turned to the service of others, his feelings for his loved ones, etc. Now, he is facing events on a much more worldly scale in Salvatore's writing in the 21st Century - not at all unlike the events we are all experiencing now....hitherto unknown enemies, a sense of worldly concern, expanding one's borders beyond the norm.....these are all very common threads in his work, but you can really see them as extremely prevalent themes in the 21st century. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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KlarthAilerion
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2003 : 03:00:44
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"no-real-world-stuff" equates to no real world geography and history. When you can look at a novel (or series of novels) set in a fantasy world that has nothing to do with Earth and go step for step in pointing out which part of real-world Earth is represented by which part of fantasy-world Faerun, there's a definite problem with that.
Also, in a fantasy world with multiple races, not every race should emulate a certain culture. Depending on how the fantasy world is "outlined," not every race should even emulate real-world human emotions. A story set in that fantasy world shouldn't have to come down to the reader being able to "relate" to or even "understand" the feelings or emotions of any given character. Sometimes the reader should have to use their imagination to create a picture of what's going on with a character instead of the author equating all of the character's actions to similar human behavior in the real-world. That's why it's called fantasy. |
Edited by - KlarthAilerion on 22 Sep 2003 03:06:11 |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2003 : 03:13:25
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Using inspiration and actual people,places and things are two different things.I don't mind the writer using his or hers experiences
from day to day life,or showing a change in the main charactor due to infuence of the times.We all draw from our own selves as well as others for creativity but it can still be original. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2003 : 17:10:23
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| Could you give me another example (other than Horselords or Maztica) of what you are speaking of? If you don't agree with the examples I gave earlier (about Drizzt and Salvatore's reflection of current events), then I guess I'm having trouble understanding what you mean.... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2003 : 17:21:13
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We're talking about real-world history, not 'real things'. The author of that alternate history up there called Guns of the South has at least two other series based on history. One is a magical version of the American Civil War, the other of World War II. I have a hard time getting through them because, for one thing, he seems to like long, drawn out wars of attrition (Guns being an exception), and the other because since it follows a track I already know, it's not 'new' to me.
That's why I was using alternate history as an example up there. Things are very different in the end, and you learn a lot about the time period (assuming the author did his/her research, and most of them do, and very well too). |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2003 : 22:06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
We're talking about real-world history, not 'real things'. The author of that alternate history up there called Guns of the South has at least two other series based on history. One is a magical version of the American Civil War, the other of World War II. I have a hard time getting through them because, for one thing, he seems to like long, drawn out wars of attrition (Guns being an exception), and the other because since it follows a track I already know, it's not 'new' to me.
That's why I was using alternate history as an example up there. Things are very different in the end, and you learn a lot about the time period (assuming the author did his/her research, and most of them do, and very well too).
I agree,I think there is just some simple misuderstanding
going on here my friends.Bookwrym sums it all up. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Edited by - William of Waterdeep on 22 Sep 2003 22:07:22 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2003 : 05:50:22
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Hmm...I guess it would be in this bard's interest to let this thread continue on without me....
I'm not for understanding...ye speakest with a tongue most strange to me!
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2003 : 16:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by ArionElenim
Hmm...I guess it would be in this bard's interest to let this thread continue on without me....
I'm not for understanding...ye speakest with a tongue most strange to me!
William:
Perhaps it is I that doesn't understand.Speak on bard!!!
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Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Should real world history be kept out of FR Novels
