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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 10:09:19
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Recently I have been using two distinct types of npc.
Firstly the highly crafted, well thought out and mechanically designed. These npcs where supposed to be the important characters to the game, but take considerable time, lack flexibility and kept me checking the stat block. They are 'better' from a combat point of view.
Secondly the evolutionary type of npc. I take an idea and let it develop, giving it a vague class and level and then letting the feats and skills develop dependent on the encounters. I don't use exact rules, more what feels right given the situation. This does mean sometmes they end up with to many feats, better equipment or dodgy looking skills, but they do have tricks up their sleaves as any oversights in design can simply be changed mid combat when they suddenly do something unexpected, such as pulling out a wand because they suddenly have arcane schooling feat.
There is a question in here, which is better?
And by that I mean from a game point of view and your own personal point of view.
If npcs break the rules because they feel right is that fair?
Shouldn't a CR7 npc stick to the rules of a Level 7 pc?
Or are npcs designed using game mechanics better?
They certainly are more combat efficiant or specialised, allowing them to utilise all the rules, especially magic, but does this allow for anything other than straight combat?
Or can they still be tricky customers?
I have seen npcs that have obviously been loving crafted over many hours completly ingored by players as they charge into combat and, due to a tiny oversight by the dm during creation, the npc dies in seconds as a weakness is exploited.
So should npc design be an art or a science?
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Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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BlackDragonKarameikos
Learned Scribe
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 14:20:14
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My suggestion Wrigs13, is to keep your NPC's around the level of your PC's.
I like to craft my own NPC's but unless they are major plot NPC's, I usually keep them within say 2-3 levels higher or lower than my PC's.
This way if you are using the NPC's to supplement the groups party(for instance, no one wants to play a cleric and they keep getting hurt badly), then they are not outclassing the PC's.
If they are a major plot NPC, then go ahead and give them what you think they will need to give the group a good challenge.
At least that's my 2 cents |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 14:27:04
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| Since I use excel to for PC and NPC record-keeping, I tend to build NPCs just like PCs. The only differences I have are if the NPC is a 'one-shot' or recurring villain. If 'one-shot', I'll use a less-intensive process that makes it easier to create, but harder to modify on the fly. If they are a recurring villain (or cohort-type), they will get the full PC workout. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 16:25:37
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The thing with CRs is, IMO, that they might not really work. In my group's case (7 players with damn good equipped chars) putting two monsters/NPCs against them that have a CR of 12 (the PCs' current level) the encounter probably is finished before I really thought about what those two mobs would do... maybe not, I dunno, depends on how mean I gonna be.
Game balance is really something I don't bother with, especially CR, a group of 4 lvl 4 chars would face on lvl 4 fighter to make for an exciting encounter... I think not. If I do encounters with the minis and the battlemap I want the players really worrying about their chars.
As for building NPCs... I think of a concept and work around it. If it's just for interaction I really don't bother with stats and shite, if it's combat... I wanna give my players a run for their money, so I play by the rules of creating a toon but choosing the attributes etc. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 19:09:07
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I've been struggling with the CR of NPCs myself lately: I'm running a game for a high-level (17th) group, and encounters at the appropriate CR are simply non-challenging for them. IMO, the CR system breaks down around 15th level (your mileage may vary- my group has 3 full-bore spellcasters -druid, wiz, and cleric- which I think breaks it a little sooner). Since that point, I've been adjusting the encounters 'up' to keep things challenging: Last session I hit them with what, in essence, is a 20th level encounter, featuring the BBEG's main minion, and he barely got out alive, despite having a Word of Recall in place.
More on topic to Wrigs' question: I fully stat all NPCs that my PCs will fight (mostly b/c I'm not quite savvy enough to handle big changes on the fly during combat) and cohorts. Other than that, I just have a name, approx levels/classes, alignment, race, patron deity, and personality notes (plus, maybe, a short list of unusual qualities- like if a lower-level character has a level-inappropriate magic item or somesuch). I WISH i didn't have to stat out NPCs fully, but again, I'm just not that good at winging game mechanics, especially where spellcasters are concerned.
O, and on the topic of NPCs 'breaking the rules if they feel right' I always remind myself that, as the DM, I AM the law! Seriously, if an NPC needs an extra feat or a few extra skill points, I don't sweat it overmuch. I base it all on one question: Is this going to make a fun/exciting/challenging encounter for my players? If so, it's in. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 23 Mar 2009 19:16:28 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 20:11:11
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Numbers crunched, scribes:
I must agree with Mace. When I last ran a group for a while, I consistenly bumped up
the effective party level by 1 or 2 and decreased the CR of the speedbumps I put in
front of them. Npc that will be a featured battle must be planned out and "munchkined"
as much as PC's are to make for an interesting battle. I feel it is unfair to
just to "come up with" powers and abilities on the fly, especially since I have a hard
time judging between power levels of different abilities. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 22:12:32
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When I started DMing I stated out every npc with pain staking detail, every dungeon and every encounter. Everything was by the book and every rule was followed. Then the two experienced DMs that ran our group normally came in and did the very same stuff with their PCs they asked me not to do with mine by purposely metagaming around all the tough fights and stealing all the treasure. (I should mention I had their help and suggestions with this since it was my first time at bat, but they wanted to teach me "a lesson" was their excuse later.)
After that I became a more "on the fly" DM with stats, abilities, and in character knowledge. I'd switch a trolls weakness from fire and acid to cold and electricity. They all thought druids were a joke so I usually just had an animal walk by or a bird fly over head every so often and then like "bad luck" as they were desecrating nature some "accidents" would befell them or adventurers when they went off by themselves wouldn't come back alive.
Vindictive, probably, but justice all the same. Regardless, if one thing I learned as a DM is that there is no such thing as cheating as long as you give your PCs a good time and a way to defeat or escape the encounter. However, I never rewarded stupidity if someone went up to a dragon and yelled at it like it was some dumb puppy that made a mess on the carpet, they ended up either charred or a nice snack before dinner. |
Edited by - Ghost King on 23 Mar 2009 22:20:57 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 20:54:04
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I build NPCs to fit situations, picking an end result and fitting the numbers into it... usually at levels 5, 10, and/or 15 (depending on the player characters approximate levels). This way, I can recycle anything I make for later use. Recycled as themselves, mind you, for recurring roles --not recycled as entirely new personas with the old characters' stats.
Often, I get bored and make NPCs for no reason. I treat these like making a player character, building one level at a time and going from there. Usually, when doing this, I find a random piece of fantasy art and conceptualize who and what I think the character depicted is. I keep leveling the character up when creating this way until I feel he/or she is "done." I put these characters aside for random use... unless really inspired while getting to know the character and writing a detailed background that I can somehow work into my ongoing campaign. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 09:32:57
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Danger of free form npc is that it is easy to get carried away. What happens when a player notices a npc has 5 feats at 6th level, not a fighter I might add.  |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 13:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Danger of free form npc is that it is easy to get carried away. What happens when a player notices a npc has 5 feats at 6th level, not a fighter I might add.
A player's going to notice this? How? |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 13:24:32
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| Good point Wooly-one. Heck, just a few weeks back, the PCs killed off an NPC 'too early', I deemed, and so he wound up with an extra 50 hit points or so to last a round or two more... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 19:51:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Danger of free form npc is that it is easy to get carried away. What happens when a player notices a npc has 5 feats at 6th level, not a fighter I might add.
A player's going to notice this? How?
The joy of rules lawyers |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 20:50:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Danger of free form npc is that it is easy to get carried away. What happens when a player notices a npc has 5 feats at 6th level, not a fighter I might add.
That's no danger for me. As I mentioned, I build my special NPCs as if they were player characters. Very rarely do they get "special" treatment. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 21:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Danger of free form npc is that it is easy to get carried away. What happens when a player notices a npc has 5 feats at 6th level, not a fighter I might add.
I just say, "It's a magical world...think magically." |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 16:52:46
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My current excuse for these oversights is the use of flaws from unearthed arcane that allow you to get two extra feats.
Give all melee fighters shakey.   |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Fisk
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 22:10:39
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I usually just randomly generate (by use of some handy sites) until I get what I'm looking for. I then change some things around, and develop a small backstory, to make them my own. These work quite well for low-leveled parties, but as you get further along in the campaign, you tend to flesh previous NPCs out more, or spend days making a single new one.
I'm a student, so I often don't have time for the latter of the two methods. I would recommend a generator unless you're feeling very creative. And who knows? You could very well find yourself using a very interesting NPC! As I found out with Karg the Gnorker. |
Fisk |
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NPC Creation - Art or Science?
