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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 01:46:08
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I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.
I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 02:33:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.
I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.
Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.
And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past. |
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Sunderstone
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 02:45:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.
I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.
Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.
And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.
Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 03:12:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.
I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.
Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.
And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.
Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline?
It was actually said to be non-canon long before the timeline ever caught up with the books -- they were set well in advance of the then-current timeline.
I can't offer any insight on why WotC declared them non-canon, though. It's likely that it was planned that way from the start, especially given the format and the difference in when it was set, but it's also possible they changed their plans after publication. I'd suspect the former, but I can't rule out the latter.
All I have is the publicly available info. Someone who worked there at the time would be able to offer more info. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 03:40:00
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Totally aware of the canon status Woolly - that's what I was saying was the problem :)
As far as I understood, the "non-canon" label was applied because it was deemed fiction-within-fiction. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 04:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.
I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.
Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.
And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.
Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline?
It's tentative. As such, it would appear WotC assume some parts are canon [or at least will be], given the reference in the 'Doppelganger' entry of Monsters of Faerūn. Wizards also told us that when the timeline reached 1377 DR, some form of those novels would become canon [we learned this in the mid-to-late days of 3e]. However, given the time-jump, I'd assume we'll probably never really know the status of some of the events in the novels, unless they're specifically referenced as historical events in post-Spellplague sources.
I know some scribes find it hard to reconcile the fact that Khelben appears in one of the books in 1377 DR [especially given the events of Khelben's status-change in Blackstaff]. A possible *fix* that I've put forth before, is to suggest that the "Khelben" featured in the 1377 DR storyline of the DDTS books, was in fact Tsarra-in-the-guise-of-the-Blackstaff instead. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 05:11:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.
I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.
Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.
And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.
Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline?
It's tentative. As such, it would appear WotC assume some parts are canon [or at least will be], given the reference in the 'Doppelganger' entry of Monsters of Faerūn. Wizards also told us that when the timeline reached 1377 DR, some form of those novels would become canon [we learned this in the mid-to-late days of 3e]. However, given the time-jump, I'd assume we'll probably never really know the status of some of the events in the novels, unless they're specifically referenced as historical events in post-Spellplague sources.
I know some scribes find it hard to reconcile the fact that Khelben appears in one of the books in 1377 DR [especially given the events of Khelben's status-change in Blackstaff]. A possible *fix* that I've put forth before, is to suggest that the "Khelben" featured in the 1377 DR storyline of the DDTS books, was in fact Tsarra-in-the-guise-of-the-Blackstaff instead.
The better fix would be to make Blackstaff not canon instead :) |
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Sunderstone
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 02:52:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.
I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.
Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.
And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.
Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline?
It's tentative. As such, it would appear WotC assume some parts are canon [or at least will be], given the reference in the 'Doppelganger' entry of Monsters of Faerūn. Wizards also told us that when the timeline reached 1377 DR, some form of those novels would become canon [we learned this in the mid-to-late days of 3e]. However, given the time-jump, I'd assume we'll probably never really know the status of some of the events in the novels, unless they're specifically referenced as historical events in post-Spellplague sources.
I know some scribes find it hard to reconcile the fact that Khelben appears in one of the books in 1377 DR [especially given the events of Khelben's status-change in Blackstaff]. A possible *fix* that I've put forth before, is to suggest that the "Khelben" featured in the 1377 DR storyline of the DDTS books, was in fact Tsarra-in-the-guise-of-the-Blackstaff instead.
The better fix would be to make Blackstaff not canon instead :)
LOL, and everything that followed. |
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Sunderstone
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 03:02:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I personally the DDTS gets a bad rap. They were not bad as far as books go and were written by all heavy hitters of FR fiction.
I think the conclusion that their content is not FR fact has lead to this. With so many Volo's guides that do not get the same treatment, I think it does the story a disservice.
Volo's Guides are canon. The DDTS, on the other hand, was explicitly stated, by WotC, to not be canon.
And plenty of canon stuff has gotten panned, in the past.
Wooly do you know the main reason they considered it non-cannon? Was it simply because the events in the book and dates thereof no longer meshed with other Realms fiction and timeline?
It's tentative. As such, it would appear WotC assume some parts are canon [or at least will be], given the reference in the 'Doppelganger' entry of Monsters of Faerūn. Wizards also told us that when the timeline reached 1377 DR, some form of those novels would become canon [we learned this in the mid-to-late days of 3e]. However, given the time-jump, I'd assume we'll probably never really know the status of some of the events in the novels, unless they're specifically referenced as historical events in post-Spellplague sources.
I know some scribes find it hard to reconcile the fact that Khelben appears in one of the books in 1377 DR [especially given the events of Khelben's status-change in Blackstaff]. A possible *fix* that I've put forth before, is to suggest that the "Khelben" featured in the 1377 DR storyline of the DDTS books, was in fact Tsarra-in-the-guise-of-the-Blackstaff instead.
Thanks Sage. It's nice to know that WotC thought enough of them to be referenced in and consider that they might become official canon at one point.
I really liked most of them and never could understand why they got the bad wrap. I still hold out we will see original era treatment of the Realms(1345DR-1375DR) at some point.
I think WotC would be surprised at the response. The two books Elaine had wanted to write would be at the top of my list, as well as any 3rd ed material she developed on Moonblades or Evermeet. And of course I always wanted a book centered around Piergeiron and Madeiron Sunderstone. I find myself more interested in rereading stuff like Elaine's work than any fast forward material. |
Edited by - Sunderstone on 04 Oct 2016 04:32:06 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 04:28:17
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| I can't understand why they are "stuck in time" in a fiction setting. Other fiction lines have past/future novels all the time... wake up wizards. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 10:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I can't understand why they are "stuck in time" in a fiction setting. Other fiction lines have past/future novels all the time... wake up wizards.
TSR did that with the Dragonlance novels... And it was why I quit reading them. At the time, they had the Chronicles and the Legends... And then they did three more trilogies, all going either sideways (set at the same time, more or less, as the main trilogies) or backwards (anywhere from 5 to thousands of years into the past).
And I got bored with it and left, because they weren't moving things forward. They hit a certain point and then stopped.
There have been a handful of Realms novels that have interspersed past and present, but most everything has been set at or near whatever the current "now" is. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
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Sunderstone
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 13:53:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I can't understand why they are "stuck in time" in a fiction setting. Other fiction lines have past/future novels all the time... wake up wizards.
TSR did that with the Dragonlance novels... And it was why I quit reading them. At the time, they had the Chronicles and the Legends... And then they did three more trilogies, all going either sideways (set at the same time, more or less, as the main trilogies) or backwards (anywhere from 5 to thousands of years into the past).
And I got bored with it and left, because they weren't moving things forward. They hit a certain point and then stopped.
There have been a handful of Realms novels that have interspersed past and present, but most everything has been set at or near whatever the current "now" is.
I actually liked what TSR did with Dragonlance. With FR, I own every Pre Spellplague novel. I picked up Death Masks because it was Ed's and struggled to get through it. It only reminded me of why I can't get into any of the "now" stuff. For me it doesn't feel like the Realms and the more they shoehorn in character's like Mirt just makes it worse. It reminds me of what I use to love and that there is an overarching attempt to say, "maybe" we screwed up with the whole spellplague fast forward thing but it's still the "Realms."
It's not for me, I can tell you have a different opinion. I personally think WotC is leaving a lot of people behind. All the people I know that are fans of the novels and setting still play in the pre 4th ed era. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 14:40:23
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I would honestly prefer that they hadn't done the timejump at all... But given my experience with a setting not moving forward at all, as happened with Dragonlance, I'll take a timejump over a lack of forward motion.
It's always been part of the appeal of the Realms for me: there was more than one main story, and the setting kept moving forward. |
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Sunderstone
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 17:41:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would honestly prefer that they hadn't done the timejump at all... But given my experience with a setting not moving forward at all, as happened with Dragonlance, I'll take a timejump over a lack of forward motion.
It's always been part of the appeal of the Realms for me: there was more than one main story, and the setting kept moving forward.
Are you familiar with Cubicle 7's, The One Ring RPG? Great game and system for really getting into the story, immersion part of RPG.
It is set between the Hobbit and LotR and all of the major events of the War of the Ring are transpiring in the background but Middle Earth is so rich and that period in Middle Earth is so rich with events playing in preset time period works well.
The original Grey Box Era up through 3.5ed had that richness. All the ideas of Ed's world building had created a living breathing world. I won't compare it to Tolkien but before it was ever published as a Setting Ed had spent 20+ years writing and gaming, not as a commercial endeavor as a labor of love. So it was with Tolkien in trying to build a world pre-history and English mythology. The stories were secondary to that endeavor and that is why it felt so real.
I think that is why novels like Elaine's or Salvatore's felt so folded into the Realms back in the early days. The stories were inspired by the realness born out of 20+ years of world building.
Now you have RSE's being created to drive the setting and new rules and the World itself has become secondary to it. And for me it really feels that way. I know I can't change your mind but I think WotC is loosing out in the end.
If Elaine ever published the two final books she had planned on, I would pre-order the Hardcovers. I can't see myself picking up any new books or gaming material. I tried Death Masks and Salvatore's last couple and had wade through it to finish them and only for the sake of finishing them. I certainly won't buy anything that was ever new. Maybe at a McKays used book for a deal but I am not shelling out any money for stuff I feel like I have to wade through. |
Edited by - Sunderstone on 07 Oct 2016 18:18:07 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 18:27:21
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| I still read the books... but its been years since a novel really felt "Realms" |
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Corrupteddragon
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2016 : 00:31:34
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This was the one series I was missing to complete my Realms collection. For some reason, never picked it up when they first released because I was thinking they were going to release all 9 parts in one volume eventually. Didn't pick it up later either as it was going for inflated prices.
Walked into a local store yesterday (that sells used books) and someone had unloaded an entire run of Dragonlance and a bunch of Realms titles---all in unread condition (most with old receipts still inside the books).
Picked up all 9 books of the DDTS for .97 each! About $9 total after tax! |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2016 : 01:09:32
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| Sweet score. I read those once, years ago. I don't remember enjoying them overmuch. Wonder if they're still hiding on my hard drive. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2016 : 10:47:50
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Good deal on the books on eBay right now - $9.95, Buy It Now and free shipping. Even though I've already got them, even I want to jump on that deal!
Link! |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2016 : 13:56:13
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| And it's already gone. O_O Talk about fast! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 10:51:49
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Someone has a 24-book lot of FR novels up on eBay right now, starting bid $19.95... And it includes all 9 books of the Double Diamond Triangle series.
Linky!
It's an auction, not a Buy It Now, so there's plenty of time to get involved in this one.
And nope, I'm not involved. I'm just sharing, because I know others want those books. I've got my copy...which I still need to read, sometime. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Apr 2017 10:53:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 10:51:43
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Another set of the books... This time, starting at $55, so not so much of a bargain as prior occasions...
Clicky! |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Aug 2017 10:52:00 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 14:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Another set of the books... This time, starting at $55, so not so much of a bargain as prior occasions...
Clicky!
I've purchased AD&D books from that seller before and his stuff was always in fantastic condition. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2017 : 10:47:11
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Another listing of the books on eBay, this time for $25 for the set.
Clicky!
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Dec 2017 10:47:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 19:25:30
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Yet another listing of the books on eBay, currently going for $26 for the set.
It's an auction, not a Buy It Now.
Clicky!
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Jan 2018 19:25:54 |
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Double Diamond Triangle series
