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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 20:32:01
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Hello, all... long-time reader who (in light of the recent WotC decision to nuke my beloved Realms) has decided that it's time to take an active hand in preserving pre-4e Realmslore.
I'm currently running a campaign in which I have a player who wanted to run a dwarven druid: Whilst I could have sent her to Silvanus/Chauntea/Mielikki/etc (the usual suspects), I, instead created a small group of Dwarf druids dedicated to Dumathoin. After all, his alignment matches, he placed the gems and ores in the earth for the Dwarves to find (and these things, while inanimate, are just as natural as a tree) and made them the protectors of these things: They encourage Dwarves to minimze the impact of mining on the ecosystem, tend wild mushrooms, make pacts with Myconids, etc.
This led me to wonder what other non-nature gods might have druids in their flock. The obvious one (to me) is Kelemvor... again, he's neutral, and in his case, tasks his servants to protect the eternal cycle of Life-Death-Rebirth... which, ironically, is closer to RW druidism than anything espoused by Silvanus.
Any other thoughts in this vein?
I'm not really looking for lore here, just thought it was a neat idea, and might make for an interesting conversation.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 20:35:38
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Not a bad idea for the dwarf druid. :) Very creative!
I'm pretty sure that 'by the book', druids need to worship one of the deities listed as a nature deity on page 90 of faiths and pantheons. I can't say I've heard of any Lore exceptions to the rule, but I could be wrong.
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"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 06:34:17
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| Thx for the link, bitter: They kind of typify the inflexibility that i was attempting to defy. If Mystra has a group of rangers, why can't Dumathoin have druids? is my point. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 09:54:07
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| To me, the Elemental Lords seem like a no-brainer as druid patrons. As for rangers, I think any deity would be perfectly capable of granting them spells, whereas while the same might apply to druids, few deities have any interest in druid worshipers. F&P may say rangers must pick a deity from the list, but the book is simply wrong, IMO. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 10:13:20
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| The FRCS (p. 23) rules that druids of Faerun alway receives their spells from a deity of nature or animals. Then follows a long list of nature deities of the Realms, which does not include any dwarven deities yet, as far as I see. Since druids can care not alone for forrest, but also for mountains, deserts, lakes, swamps, etc., and given Dumathions attitude towards nature, there is nothing which prevents Dumathion from being a patron for druids dedicated for his cause. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 10:13:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Thx for the link, bitter: They kind of typify the inflexibility that i was attempting to defy. If Mystra has a group of rangers, why can't Dumathoin have druids? is my point.
druids and rangers must follow a nature deity if they wish to receive spells.
more or less what it says in the f&p.
however, It also says that deity XYZ all have druid or ranger followers.
I've also been told that that very same book contradicts itself.
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 10:55:48
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Well... that's both spot-on and beside the point: F+P tells us that only powers x,y,z can have rangers; if that's the case, then we could assume that this is also the list of powers which sponsor druids. Alas, the same book which says that Mystra isn't allowed Rangers names the order of rangers who follow Mystra. So, does Mystra also have druid worshippers? Magic IS natural in the Realms, after all, as natural as gravity.
As we can thus safely discard the F+P rules on which powers sponsor which types of divine casters, the question becomes 'Which powers does it MAKE SENSE would sponsor a druidic tradition, or at least individual Druids?'.
As I stated above, IMO, the MOST logical choice for Druids is actually Kelemvor. As the power not only of death (and what's more natural than dying?) but also as the self-appointed guardian of 'the Endless Cycle' as well as the one Power that seeks to balance all things mortal (via judgement post-mortem) Kelemvor seems to be the Faerunian power MOST likely to support Druids.
The laugher here is that Silvanus, the power most associated with druidic tradition in the Realms, was not venerated by RW druids IRL, despite being coterminous and co-located with the actual druidic faith.
I would also defend my use of Dumathoin as a patron of druids, under many of the same criteria. He is the keeper of secrets (and few faiths have ever been as secretive as the druids), he is the Dwarven psychopomp/death deity (see the aforementioned points on Kelemvor), he is (in the Morndinsamman tradition) the power responsible for the placement of all gems, ores, etc., and upon first seeing them despoiled, was irate at the violation of his natural order. Again,given the above, I would argue that Dumathoin or Kelemvor make better druidic patrons than any of the 'nature' deities.
BTW, I do realize that this is all just blather, and we will likely come to no determination of what is 'canon'. As such, why can't we try to answer the question 'Which powers does it MAKE SENSE would sponsor a druidic tradition, or at least individual Druids?'? |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 21 Feb 2009 11:00:36 |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 11:02:58
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Yep. We know what F&P says, but it's clearly a mistake, or rather, an unnecessary sweeping generalization. But it's been discussed in the two topics linked to, above.
I wouldn't go too overboard with druids of untraditional deities, but I see no reason why most deities weren't (meta?)physically capable of granting spells to druid worshipers. There's just no reason for most to sponsor druids, because tending to nature or whatever isn't serving the gods' purposes in any way.
I'd give most, if not all, of the Seldarine the option of sponsoring druids. As is, I think only Rillifane, Deep Sashelas and Aerdrie have any? And Mielikki's elven aspect, of course. Fenmarel, Solonor, Sehanine are all viable candidates, I think. Possibly Eilistraee, for I believe most races ought to have one deity at least capable of granting druid spells, even if it was extremely rare that any druids would emerge in that culture.
I'd also give the Deities of Fury druidic servants. Some of them might have them in 3e? At least Malar does. Why not Talos and Umberlee? I see druids related not only to the living nature, but also the elements, the earth and the powers of weather and nature. That's why I think the Elemental Lords are some of the best fits as druidic patrons, even if they're not listed as nature deities.
EDIT: The way you relate druids to the natural order of things, and the eternal circle, you certainly make a persuasive argument towards Kelemvor sponsoring druids. I'm not sure that's how I see it, though. To me, the nonsense about balance is just the elaborate surface layer of the druidic tradition, the doctrines of their faith. The very core of druidism (in the Realms as I see them), however, is the connection to primal forces, the powers of the elements and life. Death doesn't seem to be a driving force, an energy or a building block of the natural world per se, but rather simply an end to it. Part of the cycle, for sure, but not something to draw power from. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 21 Feb 2009 11:09:43 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 11:20:44
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I agree on all points, Ironangel, except one...
In the Realms after the Time of Troubles, it serves a Power's interests to have SERVANTS... of any sort. As Ao decreed that a Power's viability would depend on the number and vigor of his adherents, then I gotta say, if an oddball druid wants to serve Tyr,I bet he's willing to take the Druid on as a follower (providing, of course that he's LN, and thus in the normal arc of followers of Tyr).
Of couse, even the alignment bit might not matter too much, as CG Sune has Paladin servitors...
I do agree that I wouldn't allow a PC druid in my campaign to serve any of the Triad, Helm, Tempus, Mask, Lathander, Waukeen, or many other faerunian powers... but I'd certainly allow more than just the 'nature' deities.
The Powers of Fury are a great example of 'nontraditional' patrons of druids that I could totally see having many druidic followers.
And I think it goes without saying that the elemental lords would likely boast more druids than clerics, with the exception of Kossuth in Thay.
EDIT: As far as the point on death: We know that there is massive energy in death- it's one of the driving forces behind the nitrogen cycle. A system that a faerunian druid might not see in our terms, but one that he would certainly recognize. Why else use bone-meal as fertilizer and why else are carrion-eaters so prolific in all ecosystems? Not to mention that RL druids once made use of living sacrifice (both human and animal) as a representation of the death of nature in winter. Further, what is more primal than death? It is THE great leveller, and even if you see balance as a miniscule portion of the druidic tradition in FR, death is the one really balancing force in a world of archmagi, dragons, and gods that walk the land. The only thing that each has in common is that all wil eventually die... I mean, the god of death just died not too long ago, for the love of Ed!
And if you think death has no real power to draw on after that, contemplate the death of a star: Supernova sounds like a wicked 9th lv druid spell to me. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 21 Feb 2009 11:34:09 |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 16:41:50
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| Don't dwarves have a 'druidic' deity in Marthammor Duin? |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 23:57:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Don't dwarves have a 'druidic' deity in Marthammor Duin?
IIRC he's not on the list in F&P, but we use him that way in our game. He's my Dwarven Ranger/rogue's patron for example. |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 23:59:47
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Duin's not really a "druidic" deity as such. But he certainly has the "nature" background necessary for such a role -- as a guide and protector of dwarven adventurers. It's just never been overly emphasised.
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Edited by - The Sage on 22 Feb 2009 00:01:03 |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 00:17:55
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I concur. I was hoping to see some dwarven druid substitution levels in RoS. I would have liked to have seen more options for druids to be associated with many different terrain types as well as elements, weather, even the sun and moon. I always thought the view of druids just protecting woodlands was far too narrow.
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Thx for the link, bitter: They kind of typify the inflexibility that i was attempting to defy. If Mystra has a group of rangers, why can't Dumathoin have druids? is my point.
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"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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3.x Deities with druid worshippers?
