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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 17:07:47
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I've been musing over an aspect of Faerūnian Lore that I can't figure out, and know that there's a Loremaster out there who can help.
If the Karstone is "Whole Magic" somehow and infusion of Shar and Mystra-II, then
1. Why was Melgaunt Tanthul's Shadow Weave magic inhibited within the boundaries of Evereska's mythal?
and
2. The Chosen noted a similar effect on Weave users in Telemont's palace - why to this too?
Why is the Karstone functional as Whole Magic, while example 1 and 2 cast each Weave as possible Mutually Exclusive under certain contexts?
The descriptions of the Weave and Shadow Weave cast them as coexisting within non-overlapping metaphysical space.
So, why does the Karstone, with its "Whole Magic" properties function? How is it different? This is the core of the mystery for me. Can you help?
And if Shar took her 'shadow back' when Mystril died, how come the Weave allows Shadow Magic (that uses Necromancy, for example) at all!
Does this implies that the Weave STILL has some of Shar in it? Or what?
I can't resolve the tensions in the mythology - can someone help out?
At Your Service
Silmarien
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Malanthius
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 19:03:53
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Okay, here goes and check me on any of this...
1) Evereska's mythal has a general dispelling effect on 'unapproved' magic users. Although the shadow weave and mystra's weave are ultimately seperate sources, they share a lot of similarities in effects and methods, ergo, a weave spell can dispell a shadow weave spell and vice versa.
2) Telemonts palace was basically his base of power, and probably shared the demi-plane of shadow world effects. Increasing his own abilities and weaking that of the chosen.
The Karstone (oh boy) okay for starters, it's literally all that's left of Kasus' heart. When Karsus cast his Karsus Avatar spell he literally stole mystryl's power and qualities as a deity; he absorbed her whole magic, when she sacrificed herself to stop him was effectively when the weave "split", her death allowed shar to steal the shadow weave magic subtype. However, karsus still retained a fraction of Mystryl's whole magic, it transformed him into a statue as he tried to stop his fall to the ground. It stayed within his heart through all the centuries until it was finally taken back by the archwizards. Just as the shadowweave and mystra's weave are seperate, so to is the Karstone. So long as it's in shars possesion though, she'll probably be able to allow certain mortal individuals to cast higher than ninth level spells (prince escobar's destruction of tilverton)
"shadow magic" as used by the weave falls under the illusion descriptor.
The same effects (and spells that ARE shadow weave specific) gain an increase in power when created using the shadow weave, unfortunately, you can't create or cast any spell using the light descriptor using the shadow weave. Just as you can't cast a true shadow spell using mystra's weave.
It breaks down to the same effect using different causes. Ultimately the weave/shadowweave are for the most part two different ways of doing essentially the same thing. So you have effects that bridge the gap, necromancy, illusion, abjuration etc.
Okay, did that answer your questions?
Mal. |
"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's." |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 03:43:18
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Thanx for that - much appreciated. You are a Loremaster.
"Just as you can't cast a true shadow spell using mystra's weave"
But Weave users CAN use Necromancy, Illusion, and so on - that are "Shadow Weave like". So, Does this mean that Mystra/Midnight must also have some of Shar in the Weave still? What is Shar?
And,
"Telemonts palace was basically his base of power, and probably shared the demi-plane of shadow world effects. Increasing his own abilities and weaking that of the chosen".
This seems to imply that Shadow Weave can 'oust' Weave-users specifically - somehow - "push away the Weave"
Yet, again Karstone 'whole magic' is both Weave and Shadow Weave. And if the Karstone is still 'whole' then a method must exist for "fusing" Weave and Shadow Weave, thereby tipping the power balance to those who can do this feat. Is it possible in the Faerūnian Universe to
modify the Weave (yet again) to change the Magical universe....?
Cheers
silmarien
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Malanthius
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 18:35:50
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quote:
"Just as you can't cast a true shadow spell using mystra's weave"
But Weave users CAN use Necromancy, Illusion, and so on - that are "Shadow Weave like". So, Does this mean that Mystra/Midnight must also have some of Shar in the Weave still? What is Shar?
True shadow spell- case in point, shadow bolt. As a shadow spell it gets a caster level increase on save vs, yes you could create a similar effect using mystra's weave under the illusion descriptor. It wouldn't be as powerful though. The difference between the weave and the shadow weave isn't really between "good" and "evil" more like the difference between the positive and negative energy plane. For there to be one, there must be another. For every light casts a shadow. Just as the weave takes up a space, the shadow weave is an absence of that.
What i'm trying to say is though they're not connected, they can produce similar effects/spells/enchantments. Necromancy, being the magical manipulation of life and death, positive and negative energy (positive for clerics, negative for arcane spell casters) believe it or not isn't inherently evil, or shadow.
That's a big thing to understand, the shadowweave isn't inherently evil. Just different.
Shar, is in a way, Mystra's mother. :) According to the FR mythos, Realmspace was originally composed of twin goddeses, Selune and Shar, who created it from themselves, and started arguing after Selune tapped into the elemental plane of fire to give light and warmth to chauntea (goddes of the earth form of abertoril/faerun). They've been fighting ever since. Mystril, the original goddess of the weave was created when selune hurled her essence of magick through Shar, ripping off a part of Shar's power as well. The combined magick of the twin goddesses formed into mystril, who originally sided with selune. Shar never forgave her errant daughter for that.
Shar plotted for aeons to take back the shadow from Mystril, and only succeded finally because of Karsus' idiocy. Up until that time, for the most part the shadow weave was under mystril's control.
Shar is the goddes of the night, of secrets, and vendettas hidden but never forgotten.
quote:
"Telemonts palace was basically his base of power, and probably shared the demi-plane of shadow world effects. Increasing his own abilities and weaking that of the chosen".
This seems to imply that Shadow Weave can 'oust' Weave-users specifically - somehow - "push away the Weave"
I should have said "planar effects" as apposed to world effects. In the shadow demiplane magic works differently period. It happens sometimes when you travel to different planes (see manual of the planes for more info). Or it could have been a dispelling effect similar to the one in evereska but targeted for weave users. A dispell could be crafted that would do the same thing to shadow weave magick.
quote:
Yet, again Karstone 'whole magic' is both Weave and Shadow Weave. And if the Karstone is still 'whole' then a method must exist for "fusing" Weave and Shadow Weave, thereby tipping the power balance to those who can do this feat. Is it possible in the Faerūnian Universe to
modify the Weave (yet again) to change the Magical universe....?
Only if either the Current Mystra or Shar ever gets complete control over both the weave and shadow weave.
mal. |
"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's." |
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Nakil Delquion
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 18:58:27
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Perhaps it would do well for the Magister of Mystra to shed some light on this particular question.
Pardon me as I go through several things to give you a background understanding.
First keep in mind that Shar has no "magic" indicitive of herself. It is not "Shar's" weave. It is merely the Shadow Weave. True, Shar has delved deeper in it than any other power with the possible exception of Mystra. But it is also true that the Shadow Weave is something that extends accross the multiverse, even in places where Shar has no power. This is because the Shadow Weave has its origins in the Demi-Plane of Shadow. The person who discovered the Shadow Weave on Faerun (some will erroneously dub him the "inventor" of the Shadow Weave) is none other than Shadow, an enigmatic arcanist of the days of Netheril. Keep in mind that the Shadow Weave and the Weave cover Faerun (and the rest of the multiverse) in the same manner, but that they do not actually come into contact as pure incarnations. Also, the Shadow Weave will only make its presence known when someone skilled in the Art taps into it, or when something from the Demi-Plane of Shadow is about.
I am not positive as to what you mean by "Whole Magic," so I will assume you mean, "Pure Magic." The Karstone is not an infusion of the Shadow Weave and the Weave. In fact, as stated in Elaine Cunnigham's King's and Counselor's series and the War of the Archwizards series, if pure incarnations of the Shadow Weave and the Weave ever come into contact, a very serious and powerful implosion would occur, tearing a rift in the multiverse and doing tons of other nasty, nasty things. The Karstone is merely a pure source of the Weave.
The inhibition of Melgaunt Tanthul's Shadow Weave Magic had nothing to do with "Whole Magic" and the Karstone. Rather, it was the Mythal itself, which by definition is directly tapped to the Weave of Mystra, that would act to weaken his powers, and the fact that one of the abilities of the Mythal was to prevent foreign spellcasters from making use of their magic. Evereska has always been a cautious place.
The weakening of the Chosen's powers came from an ancient item called a Mythallar. Mythallars were once relatively common in the days of Netheril, and many believe (falsely) that the only one now in existence is the one found on the Enclave of Shadow. Mythallars acted as "powerhouses." They were, to an extent, pure incarnations of the Weave. They allowed huge amounts of power to flow from the weave to sustain the protective magics of the Floating Enclaves, and to keep the Enclaves themselves, afloat. Shadow, after becoming an Archwizard in his own right and after making numerous and substantial discoveries in the mysterious field of Shadow Magic, created his own "Shadow Mythallar." This Mythallar acted in much the same way as other Mythallars, with the possibilities of a few minor differences. This Shadow Mythallar was (and is, I suppose) a direct incarnation of the Shadow Weave. Because the Chosen of Mystra are directly dependent on Mystra for their powers (as evidenced by Elminster's weakness during the time of troubles, when no Mystra was there to give him his abilities) the Shadow Magic wreaked by the Shadow Mythallar overwhelmed, to an extent, their connection to their goddess. Likewise, what powers they did have, such as the Silver Fire, that were pure incarnations of the Weave, would completely and utterly destroy the Shadow Mythallar if ever they came in contact with it.
It has been a long time since I have read these books, but I think I remember that the chosen had originally planned to use their Silver Fire (pure Weave magic) against the Mythallar, to disastrous effect. I cannot remember whether they did or not, but I assume they didn't because they are all still alive (Except of course, for Sylune Silverhand who has been dead since the time of troubles, and Sammaster who has been dead for longer than that).
After reading more of your post, and not wanting to reread mine, I will reiterate that Shar has no direct connection with either the Weave or the Shadow Weave. She has hunted to control the Weave, and centuries agone she had come into contact with and learned much about the Shadow Weave, but she hardly exhibits any smidgin of control that parallels in any way shape or form to the great goddess Mystra's control over the weave.
Also it should be noted that the Karstone doesn't actually "function." Part of its tale is recounted here:
"When Karsus cast the Karsus' Avatar spell, he foolishly chose Mystryl, the goddess of magic, as his target. Knowledge has always outweighed wisdom in the minds of the ambitious and Karsus was no exception.
After casting the spell, the body ofthe archwizard swelled with the sudden influx of godly power and his mind filled with unimaginable knowledge. Karsus instantly realized the horrible mistake he had made, but he knew there was nothing he could do to stop the inevitable. the Archwizard had stolen the mantle of divinity from the one power whose portfolio required her to constantly rework the weave of Magic- the weave that Netheril and its glut of magic constantly threatened to unravel. When Mystryl lost her abilitiy to maintain the weave's integrity, Karsus was ill-equiped to serve in her stead. the Weave began to fluctuate wildly and the lands of Netheril and beyond were inundated with a flood of raw magic which surged and ebbed with far greater power and destructive force than had ever been seen before. Karsus could only concentrate (with his limited human faculties) on the places that shone the brightest to his mind's eye: the places where magic was greatest. Suprisingly, these were not the cities of Netheril, but rather, where the homes that Elves had made, protected by their Mythals. So, many of of the Mythals (no to imply that there were many, but merely saying that most of the few) survived the chaos, such as the Mythal that to this day, rests over Evereska.
Mystra Sacrificed herself to save the Weave before the damamge became irreparable. This self-sacrifice temporarily held interaction with the weave in abeyance, causing all magic to cease functioning for a few minutes. Without a steady infusion of magic, the floating cities of Netheril plumeted to the ground. Karsus was immediately slain when Mystryl sacrificed herself, as her actions broke his link to the magic.
Upon his death, Karsus' power engorged body immediately turned to red-hued stone (the Karstone), and the Momentary God plummeted from the heights of his once-floating enclave to the ground. As his body fell, Karsus replayed over and over in his mind the image of Netheril's cities plunging to the ground and shattering, a vision granted to him by his brief tenure as a divine being. Karsus's heart broke as he realized that his greed for power of the deities themselves had caused the destruction of his home, his family, his friends, and his people. Even in death, his heart still bleeds. Through the magic of the Dire Wood, Karsus is bound in eternal tormentto relive repeatedly the moment be became aware of his folly. Thus his heart is one of the purest connections to the Weave. It is unknown why the previous and the Current Mystra have allowed it to remain (if even they could remove it), but remain it does, as an ever-present reminder of the folly of greed."
I hope you enjoyed story time and I hope that I helped you. I am not sure if I answered all your questions but I will try to look at your post, then at mine again, later. My fingers hurt, my bladder is full, and I have a sudden desire for milk; a strong desire. So I must be off. May the Lady's Blessings be upon you.
-Nakil Delquion, Magister of Mystra.
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Sweet Water and Light Laughter Until Next We Meet. |
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Nakil Delquion
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 19:10:39
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Before I use the restroom, I would like to say a few more things that I just realized, or had forgotten.
First of all, as a worshipper of Mystra, I must say with all do respect, Malanthius, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND! Shar is Mystra's mother? By the Abyss, NO!
It is true, Realmspace was originally composed of Twin goddesses, Shar and Selune, but the Weave was ever present and though Mystryl was not the first incarnation of the weave, the weave and its avatar is certainly older than the Sisters of Shadows and Stars. You see, while each and every incarnation of the weave was decidely female, in those first tumultuous millenia after Ao had come to the Realms at the behest of his Superiors, there were many incarnations of the weave, but they were also decidedly the oldest creatures of the realms.
Also, Silmarien, I meant to say something before on the Shadow Magic point, but forgot. Okay,
The Shadow School and the Shadow Weave are certainly two different things. The Shadow school is a normaly school of magic that draws on spells using properties of Shadows, such as Shadow Cat. Those spells do not draw on the Shadow Weave, but the weave itself. THis is because they emulate shadows, whereas true Shadow Magic actually drawson Shadow Stuff (or Shadow Substance). It is that important and undeniable difference that separates the Shadow School and the Shadow Weave. Ask me if I didn't clear that up enough.
Also, it appears that while I was writing that book of a post that precedes this one, Mal wrote his response to you. I think you both would do well in reading my post, especially the part about the Mythallar, which is not common knowledge to any but Chosen of Mystra, these days, and then I think more understanding will come.
Please ask if you need anything else, I willb e checking up on this forum frequently I hope. Other forums I belong to send you an email if someone replies to a post you have participated in. Does this one? If not, then I will have a hard time remembering and motivating myself enough to check this forum. In any case, I hope I helped.
Have a wonderful day! |
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Until Next We Meet. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 02:00:24
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Nakil Delquion said -
quote:
Other forums I belong to send you an email if someone replies to a post you have participated in. Does this one? If not, then I will have a hard time remembering and motivating myself enough to check this forum.
I assume by other forums you mean WotC, since they have this function. I do not think however that such a function exists here at Candlekeep. As for motivating yourself enough to check this wonderful place...it is Realmslore...that should be motivation enough  .
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 06:30:01
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Nakil where did you get most of that uncommon knowledge weave information. Were they from novels? Just curioous. Good stuff.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 08:47:01
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Firstly, I would like to acknowledge the time you have put into your post, and to say I am extremely greatful for your time. I am always moved to find generous hearted folk - and this echoes with my own values - I love to respond to thread-posters - to help them out. Very rewarding.
Your knowledge is fantastic - and also inspiring.
I find the whole Faerunian Mythology fascinating. I am developing hypotheses (and exploring parent assumptions) that go into the formulation for a way to
1. create a Rent in the Shadow Weave and
2. create a method for suppressing ONE weave and NOT the other.
That is - *times up Shar - your turn* and thinking about another major Age in the Faerunian Legacy. The answer to the riddle seems to be in the unresolvable tensions in the mythological concepts. Let me explain.
quote:
Originally posted by Nakil Delquion
Perhaps it would do well for the Magister of Mystra to shed some light on this particular question.
Pardon me as I go through several things to give you a background understanding.
Bless you! Please excuse my ignorance if I miss the point of something you have so ably described. I am still learning.
quote:
First keep in mind that Shar has no "magic" indicitive of herself. It is not "Shar's" weave. It is merely the Shadow Weave. True, Shar has delved deeper in it than any other power with the possible exception of Mystra. But it is also true that the Shadow Weave is something that extends accross the multiverse, even in places where Shar has no power. This is because the Shadow Weave has its origins in the Demi-Plane of Shadow. The person who discovered the Shadow Weave on Faerun (some will erroneously dub him the "inventor" of the Shadow Weave) is none other than Shadow, an enigmatic arcanist of the days of Netheril. Keep in mind that the Shadow Weave and the Weave cover Faerun (and the rest of the multiverse) in the same manner, but that they do not actually come into contact as pure incarnations. Also, the Shadow Weave will only make its presence known when someone skilled in the Art taps into it, or when something from the Demi-Plane of Shadow is about.
The part about occupying non-overlapping metaphysical spaces is grasped. But, I'm confused about the 'creator' of the Shadow Weave - because, (i apologise if this reference is inappropriate), but in Magic of Faerun pg 7
quote:
Shar studied the Weave and used her own energy in remote parts of the world to experiment on it, eventually coming to understand how it worked and duplicating its effects with her own subtle and dark creation. Eventually this experiment grew to encompass the entire globe, although none knew of its existence. This creation is the Shadow Weave, a dark and distorted copy of the true Weave that enhances the magic of shadows, enchantment, necromancy.
This casts the Shadow Weave as a more recent phenomenon - and not a multiverse concept. I suspect your formulation may have more merit, as it draws on Faerunian Lore as per the novels? Alternatively, I speculate that when Mystryl died, Shar took the part that was removed from her back (originally, I thought Selune literally hurled a part of herself and Shar, and created Mystril out of Shar+Selune Stuff). In this formulation, I have made the assumptions that Shar and Mystril/Mystra are 'weave-makers'. I also remember reading somewhere that "Mystra IS the Weave" and have made a like assumption about Shar and the Shadow Weave. I of course, could be very wrong.
Is my source reliable?
quote:
I am not positive as to what you mean by "Whole Magic," so I will assume you mean, "Pure Magic." The Karstone is not an infusion of the Shadow Weave and the Weave. In fact, as stated in Elaine Cunnigham's King's and Counselor's series and the War of the Archwizards series, if pure incarnations of the Shadow Weave and the Weave ever come into contact, a very serious and powerful implosion would occur, tearing a rift in the multiverse and doing tons of other nasty, nasty things. The Karstone is merely a pure source of the Weave.
My understanding is?/was? that the Karstone reflects the nature of the Weave before Mystril died - I have heard it referred to as "Heavy Magic", "Whole Magic" and your words now add a third "Pure Magic". I am very confused - there are so many takes on Faerunian Lore - which is why I absolutely LOVE it all so much.
Now, not to contradict you - but to explore - a take on "Whole Magic" describes it as containing both Selune+Shar Essence (recall the hurling of Selun at Shar and the Birth of Mystril). However, again, your take on the Weave places it well outside any single Deitie's domain, but a Multiverse concept.
To speak to your 'annihilation' concept. While the Two Weaves may wreak havoc if they collide - it is clearly permissible for their Magic they channel? to collide. I speculate that one can 'back flush' through a weave - somehow collide Weave Magic and Shadow Weave Magic (not the Weaves themselves) and thereby possibly cause the Shadow Weave magic itself to 'turn in' on itself and rend the Shadow Weave.
I will develop this hypothesis further, after I speak to the rest of your post....
quote:
The inhibition of Melgaunt Tanthul's Shadow Weave Magic had nothing to do with "Whole Magic" and the Karstone. Rather, it was the Mythal itself, which by definition is directly tapped to the Weave of Mystra, that would act to weaken his powers, and the fact that one of the abilities of the Mythal was to prevent foreign spellcasters from making use of their magic. Evereska has always been a cautious place.
I get a vision here of 'compressing the space' so that there is less (metaphysical) space for the opposing weave to function, when a Mythal is present. The assumption being that a Mythal is a 'compression' of the Weave. An assumption I know of no way to test. Do you see merit in this assumption?
quote:
The weakening of the Chosen's powers came from an ancient item called a Mythallar. Mythallars were once relatively common in the days of Netheril, and many believe (falsely) that the only one now in existence is the one found on the Enclave of Shadow. Mythallars acted as "powerhouses." They were, to an extent, pure incarnations of the Weave. They allowed huge amounts of power to flow from the weave to sustain the protective magics of the Floating Enclaves, and to keep the Enclaves themselves, afloat. Shadow, after becoming an Archwizard in his own right and after making numerous and substantial discoveries in the mysterious field of Shadow Magic, created his own "Shadow Mythallar." This Mythallar acted in much the same way as other Mythallars, with the possibilities of a few minor differences. This Shadow Mythallar was (and is, I suppose) a direct incarnation of the Shadow Weave. Because the Chosen of Mystra are directly dependent on Mystra for their powers (as evidenced by Elminster's weakness during the time of troubles, when no Mystra was there to give him his abilities) the Shadow Magic wreaked by the Shadow Mythallar overwhelmed, to an extent, their connection to their goddess. Likewise, what powers they did have, such as the Silver Fire, that were pure incarnations of the Weave, would completely and utterly destroy the Shadow Mythallar if ever they came in contact with it.
Now we're getting somewhere! This resonates with my earlier hypothesis about 'rending shadow weave' without causing contact between Weave and Shadow Weave.
The assumption here seems to be that concentrations of Weave (or ergo, Shadow Weave) greatly amplify one Weave-Magic-manifestation at the expcence? of the other Weave?
Now, about Silverfire - again, please correct me if I am wrong, but I understood Silverfire to be a moulding of Raw Magic by the Chosen. That is, Raw Magic cannot be accessed/used directly by mortals. The Weave (or Shadow Weave) is required to 'manifest' magic from Raw Magic.
Now - The Chosen can repair rents in the Weave with Silverfire from OUTSIDE a rent. This to me seems to suggest that Silverfire is a more potent force than the Weave (yet also somehow OF the Weave). And this hypothesis may hold because Mystra limits access to Silverfire - precisely because it is so uber-powerful.
It may follow that a variant on Silverfire (and perhaps amplified by a Mythallar) can cause a 'back-flush' of magical energy through the Shadow Weave - sort of like 'reflecting' Dark Mythal energy back on itself with a Mirror. The Mirror metaphor here subsuming the notion of 'rending by reflection and amplification'.
I am suspecting that Mystra's Portfolio has some surprises in it - which include new takes on The Chosens' Powers.
I guess, the Darkfire of Silverfire metaphor could then be manifested by a Shadow Weave Caster to mend a rent in the Shadow Weave?
quote:
It has been a long time since I have read these books, but I think I remember that the chosen had originally planned to use their Silver Fire (pure Weave magic) against the Mythallar, to disastrous effect. I cannot remember whether they did or not, but I assume they didn't because they are all still alive (Except of course, for Sylune Silverhand who has been dead since the time of troubles, and Sammaster who has been dead for longer than that).
In my metaphor, I am aligning a Mythallar with Silverfire - not setting them up as opposing forces. And, I am confused about whether Weave *is* magic, or mererly *conduit* FOR magic. With, raw magic being *energy* and *weave* as conduit for raw magic?
quote:
After reading more of your post, and not wanting to reread mine, I will reiterate that Shar has no direct connection with either the Weave or the Shadow Weave. She has hunted to control the Weave, and centuries agone she had come into contact with and learned much about the Shadow Weave, but she hardly exhibits any smidgin of control that parallels in any way shape or form to the great goddess Mystra's control over the weave.
see earlier comments quoted from Magic of Faerun. I'm confused. Our two takes are non-overlapping on this point. But I am new to Faerunian Lore - so don't have confidence in my knowledge.
quote:
Also it should be noted that the Karstone doesn't actually "function." Part of its tale is recounted here:
"When Karsus cast the Karsus' Avatar spell, he foolishly chose Mystryl, the goddess of magic, as his target. Knowledge has always outweighed wisdom in the minds of the ambitious and Karsus was no exception.
After casting the spell, the body of the archwizard swelled with the sudden influx of godly power and his mind filled with unimaginable knowledge. Karsus instantly realized the horrible mistake he had made, but he knew there was nothing he could do to stop the inevitable. the Archwizard had stolen the mantle of divinity from the one power whose portfolio required her to constantly rework the weave of Magic- the weave that Netheril and its glut of magic constantly threatened to unravel. When Mystryl lost her abilitiy to maintain the weave's integrity, Karsus was ill-equiped to serve in her stead. the Weave began to fluctuate wildly and the lands of Netheril and beyond were inundated with a flood of raw magic which surged and ebbed with far greater power and destructive force than had ever been seen before. Karsus could only concentrate (with his limited human faculties) on the places that shone the brightest to his mind's eye: the places where magic was greatest. Suprisingly, these were not the cities of Netheril, but rather, where the homes that Elves had made, protected by their Mythals. So, many of of the Mythals (no to imply that there were many, but merely saying that most of the few) survived the chaos, such as the Mythal that to this day, rests over Evereska.
Mystra Sacrificed herself to save the Weave before the damamge became irreparable. This self-sacrifice temporarily held interaction with the weave in abeyance, causing all magic to cease functioning for a few minutes. Without a steady infusion of magic, the floating cities of Netheril plumeted to the ground. Karsus was immediately slain when Mystryl sacrificed herself, as her actions broke his link to the magic.
Upon his death, Karsus' power engorged body immediately turned to red-hued stone (the Karstone), and the Momentary God plummeted from the heights of his once-floating enclave to the ground. As his body fell, Karsus replayed over and over in his mind the image of Netheril's cities plunging to the ground and shattering, a vision granted to him by his brief tenure as a divine being. Karsus's heart broke as he realized that his greed for power of the deities themselves had caused the destruction of his home, his family, his friends, and his people. Even in death, his heart still bleeds. Through the magic of the Dire Wood, Karsus is bound in eternal tormentto relive repeatedly the moment be became aware of his folly. Thus his heart is one of the purest connections to the Weave. It is unknown why the previous and the Current Mystra have allowed it to remain (if even they could remove it), but remain it does, as an ever-present reminder of the folly of greed."
I understood prior to reading this section that When Mystril perished, 'Shar took her power back' that bit that was ripped out of her by Selun to Create Mystril. And when Mystra was reborn, much of the Weave's potency went into Shadow Weave. Hence my comments about Necromancy, Illusion and Shadow Magic in the opening post.
And, also that Shar has the Karston in her keeping.
I am certain of neither of these facts. And also, that Whole Magic (as I have seen it referred to on other boards) was Shar+Selune stuff pre Mystril's death. And I have assumed that two weaves 'coexist' in whole magic - because the first Weave was of Shar and Selune in Mystril.
But again, I am not certain.
Anyhowz - there are my hypotheses - I look forward to your response.
I very much enjoyed Story time, and you have helped immeasurably. I hope to have respected your thoughts and ideas - and if I seem to contradict - it is only from my own confusion and incomplete Lore.
Thank you so very much Nakil Delquin.
May the Lady's Blessings be upon you also - and may you forever flourish
Silmarien Aldalome |
Edited by - Silmarien Aldalome on 28 Jul 2003 08:57:38 |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 15:51:45
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I want to add one more thing about the Karstone.
I've just realised that it can be an infusion of both weaves - *without* the need to cast the Weave and Shadow Weave as touching.
That is, a concentration of both weaves - but still each in non-overlapping metaphysical space.
And where *both* capable of channelling magical energy. You referred to it as non-functional - however I have heard it referred to as functional elsewhere - and somehow an item capable of manifesting some sort of uber-magic. Someone, somewhere suggested that Shar uses it to grant spells not of the Shadow Weave to her faithful followers - and also spells higher than ninth level.
In any case, the "nature" of the Karstone remains an enigma to me.
And again, I really just don't know!
And that's been a heap of fun.
Cheers
Silmarien |
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Nakil Delquion
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2003 : 00:15:10
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First, thank you so much for recieving my information so graciously.
Second, I haven't finished reading your larger post, Silmarien, so i am going to try and read it as I write, because it will organize my thoughts better, and I got to excited with the need to respond.
Also, Malanthius, that is a very good point, and I concede to your wisdom.
And, Mournblade, I have played D&D since the age of 7 and have always loved reading background lore. Many times I would buy D&D books, not for any practical purpose of using it in play, but rather to savor the knowledge contained therein. So, my knowledge comes from novels, play materials, internet-posted material by the divine Ed Greenwood, Steven Schend, and other Realms illuminaries. So, now begins my respond to Silmarien, enjoy!
1) A note on Faerunian Mythology, I am not sure if you mean the study of gods and goddesses, myths, or of mythals (it just occured to me that the study of Mythals could be mythology). But, as far as the weave goes, in the Spell Compendium Volume 1 there is a spell called Death Shroud. This spell increases harmful effects and such, is necromantic (obiviously), and prevents spells that nuture living things, et cetera. Using the same theory as that spell (Death over Life) you could probably create a spell that neutralizes one weave in an area, but strengthens the other and a reverse to do that opposite. Keep in mind that this would have to be very powerful (9th, 10th, 11th) in order to work, as the weave is not something that you can just play around with at your whim. However, Secrets of the Magister, does present a spell that I believe is called Weavestrike and it actually uses the Weave to attack someone. Its Ninth level, so maybe that spell would be possible at the present maximum level (9th).
2)I have read many theories on the Shadow Weave's creation, and they all share some similar aspects, except for the one you have referred to. I don't want to call it inacurate or unreliable, but I will. Lol! My thoughts are thus: First, in a world as vast as the Abeir Toril, which is delved into by many individuals, you can hardly expect to have every bit of information match up in a comprehensive guide. The theory that you are referring to played into some designs the author had at the moment, but were later rejected by the Realms Designers of the time, as other ideas popped up that were better. The way I have most often heard the tale, and the best excuse I can give you from your theory is: Shar was indeed experimenting with the weave and she discovered the Shadow Weave (though the Archmage Shadow is actually the mortal who is credited with its original discover, Shar was merely the first immortal) and then sort of claimed it as her territory by not sharing her knowledge. The Shadow Weave isn't really a creation though, because it exists on many worlds (really, every world) across the multiverse and stems from the Demi-plane of Shadow. Also, I just finished reading your quote from Magic of Faerun, and I can definitely tell you that it is all wrong. Sometimes they have freelance writers who write their own take that is not accepted later on. For example, the book Wizards and Rogues of the Realms is written by a guy who has never written anything else before or since for the Realms, has included numerous kits (such as Halruuan wizard, Cormanthyran, Waterdhavian, et cetera) whose details were later refuted, reprinted, and corrected in later books! The author of Magic Faerun must also be in that category. The reason I say that theory is all wrong is because the Shadow weave to necromancy and enchantment. Malanthius has also mentioned (I believe) that the Shadow Weave is not connected to necromancy and enchantment, and he is correct. The reason why the author of Magic of Faerun said that is either because he is an uneducated hick, or because actual shadow magic hadn't been invented yet, or possibly because he confused Shadow Magic with the kit, Shadow Mage. The Shadow Mage kit was first published in Player's Option: Skills and Powers. That mage specializes (just like an invoker, et al) in spells that have shadowy effects or represent shadows (Shadow Cat, Shadow Claw, Hallunciary Terrain, and whatnot). The spells themselves do not use the Shadow Weave, they are merely Weave spells that have shadowy effects. The only good thing About Shadow Mages is that eventually they can see perfectly in the darkness, and they are mysterious. Now, actual Shadow Magic is derived from the Shadow Weave. These Shadow Spells are Shadow. They are derived from Shadow Stuff and will sometimes appear similiar to normal weave spells, but they are not. Tell me and if necessary I will make a whole different post just on Shadow Magic and Shadow Mages and I will try to use as much literature as possible to help explain, its hard without just speaking to you and I have to hurry this post up, as I have to test-drive a car ina half hour. So, next topic.
3)It is acceptable to think as Mystra as the weave, but not wholly correct, because of her deep connection with it. She is bonded to it like no other god is bonded to their portfolio (with the possible exceptions of Azuth, Savras, and .... that one Thayvan fellow who was promoted to god of Necromany, I think he was V-something. Oh I feel so ashamed that I can't think of his name. Wait, Vhaerun? No, that's the drow god. AHHHHHHHHH. Well, if it becomes important I will look it up).
4)Now we are getting on the topic which I left off on because I got so excited to respond. I absolutely love Netherilian history, and that ties in with what I am about to say. OHHHHH YES YES YES! Velsharoon! I remember. The name of the god of necromancers and necromancy is Velsharoon! Hah! I have redeemed myself in my own eyes. Anywho, Forget the words "whole magic" and "pure magic" when you are thinking of Heavy magic. I had a suspicion that you were referring to Heavy magic, so let me explain what it was and why Karsus and the Karse stone is connected to it. First though, if you would like to have some literature on it yourself, refer to almost any Arcane Age product that deals with Netheril such as the Netheril Boxed Set, the three books by Clayton Emery (I think) centered on a barbarian character. One of them was called Mortal Consequences. If you every want to get a feel for Netheril, read those books. Delicious! Or How the Mighty is Fallen quest book. And anything else I am forgetting. So, now for my little synopsis of it:
Heavy magic was an experimental type of magic that Karsus found in Realmspace. He was experimenting with it because he felt it would be the only magic strong enough to defeat his "enemies." It wasn't so much that the heavy magic was strong, but that it was strange and non-native to Faerun, so his enemies wouldn't have any defenses against it.
His enemies were actually the Phaerimm, though none knew that but him. Actually, he didn't even know who they were. Karsus was a very powerful Archmage (as you can guess). It was rumored around Netheril that Karsus learned his first cantrip at the tender age of three (maybe four, I forget) and that he defeated his first Archmage by the age of 11. By the age of 40 or so, he had made his own Enclave, which he later abandoned to make another one (named Karsus Enclave, go figure). Karsus eventually became a 41st level Arcanist, the most powerful wizard of the time (and rumored to be the most powerful, ever). I would like to note to you that Mystra's Avatar is only a 40th level mage, so you can understand what lengths he had reached. Now, everyone in Netheril tried to get on his good side because if you were on his good side, you were politically assured your station and you knew he would never harm you...on purpose. So, when he started raving about "his enemies" no one said anything. Sometimes Karsus would just blast at seemingly empty air and everyone would just bob their heads and play along, sometimes casting their own spells to help him defeat what they though was air.
the Phaerimm, in case you don't know, are creatures heavily dependant on Magic. Their own legends say they have been around since Faerun's creation (which is false). They believe themselves superior to everyone, and have the moxy and the power to back up that claim. Their servants will often take the form of Dragons, Drow, Illithids, and Beholders. Not easy creatures to tame! now, the Phaerimm are also very magic-adept creatures. Every half century of life they gain one level as a mage. It is unknown how long they live, but it is rumored that they age almost as old as Dragons, or perhaps are immortal. they are not immortal, but I just wanted to tell you the whole of the tale, including rumors. In fact, the most common of the "powerful" Phaerimm are between 20th and 30th level. I say most common because younger Phaerimm won't travel to the surface yet because they don't have enough power to defend themslves, and older Phaerimm are normally content to let other Phaerimm do the work for them. The Phaerimm are also very few in number.
Now that you know that I must tell you a little more before I can connect it all. The Phaerimm hated Netheril because of their blatant use of magic. They actually feared that the humans would cause permanent harm to the weave (little did they know how soon their fears would come to pass). So, everyonce and a while Phaerimm would raid mages' homes, killing them, stealing stuff. THis was was much to help themselves to new magic as it was to hurt Netheril and warn people not to learn magic. After a while, this tactic didn't seem to work. The Phaerimm developed another plan and so created the Lifedrain spell. Now, the Netherilian empire was centered in (and above) the area that is now the Anauroch desert. The fields were plentiful, the land beautiful, and bountious. The Phaerimm cast their spell all over the Netherilian land. This spell made the land become a wasteland, destroying the empire economically, because there soon was no food left to eat. Little did the Phaerimm no how well their spell worked, because it actually enchanced the desert of Anauroch and made it grow. It is now about fourteen times its orginal size. And, unfortuneately, it is still growing. The people of the city of Tilverton have noted that (in the journals of their ancestors) the ride to the boundary of the desert was actually shorter than it is today (except now Tilverton is destroyed). So, Anauroch is growing, Albeit slowly. In fact, a large portion of Cormanthyr stretched that way and was once the land owned by a cadre of black dragons (one of which later became Cormyr's Purple Dragon mascot).
Anywho, so the Phaerimm staged many attacks on Karsus and because he was 41st level, he could see through their disguises. There were no other archmages who survived attacks and could pierce the Phaerimm's invisibility spells. Hence, he was the only one who knew of them, and although everyone thought himself crazy, they never said anything and so he thought everyone agreed with his perception of the threat.
One mage, Candlemas, actually developed a counter against the Phaerimm's lifedrain but he was killed shortly after inventing it by a disgruntled partner who had lost a bet and, after her skin was flayed from her flesh, was outcast to the abyss. She wasn't pleased with that.
So, eventually Karsus figured that if he turned his attention to his Avatar spell, and take Mystryl's powers, he would know enough to about Heavy Magic to destroy his enemies. So he ceased his experiments there. Many people wonder just what went wrong with his spell, and I will tell you, but unfortuneately I just realized that I am late for my test drive and must leave. I will pick up here later tonight. Sorry! |
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Until Next We Meet. |
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Nakil Delquion
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2003 : 01:40:27
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Okay, done with the car for now. So, let me figure out where I left off and I will go from there.
Right, okay, #4 continued.
Many people wondered what went wrong with Karsus's spell. Was it just too much for him? Was there something wrong in the casting? Was he not as great as he thought? Et cetera. Well, in truth, the effect was just too much for him (as I stated before in my little mythology section). He just didn't mete up to the prerequisities for godhood of magic. But, there was something else that went wrong with the casting. As he was casting his spell, Karsus and those with him were attacked by Phaerimm! I believe about seven of them teleported in as he was in the throes of his spell and he interrupted it (as I guess any mage can do -- in a novel!) to cry "My enemies" and enter into a duel with them. He emerged victorious but his spell failed. Many of the few people/creatures who know that he was attacked by Phaerimm suggest that Karsus would have been a bit more successful (though ultimately doomed) had the Phaerimm not attacked. Some suppose that the damage to the weave would not have been so severe. Others, erring on the side of wisdom, say they just don't know. In any case, the point is moot and the rest is history (literally).
That is the importance (however longwinded) of Heavy Magic. I don't know if I have already said this, but if you wish a dissertation on Heavy Magic, just ask me and I will be happy to oblige.
5)Forget anything you have heard involving Selune and Shar and the creation of the Weave. It is, sorry to say, wrong. If I still can't convince you, then ask, and I will write another dissertation with as much literature to back it up as I can, about Selune and Shar's history and their relation to the weave. Just a quick point off the top of my head: In the evens of the Crynishad and other Cyric-caused happenings, Mystra actually denies Cyric the use of his magic. That reminds all the gods of Mystra's potency, and the thought frightens them that she could deny their access to the weave. If Selune and Shar actually were connected to the weave after its creation, would they really have anything to fear? The answer, of course, is no. Selune and Shar, though ancient and powerful by anymeans, are not one with, or even connected to, the weave in any significant matter.
6)I love your theories and hypothesis. Just to let you know though, the Fall of Myth Drannor, the Sea of Fallen Stars, and Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, delves quite deeply into Mythals, so, although your theories are very interesting and intelligent, they are, ultimately, incorrect. The Weave is merely a collection of enchantments that constantly draws on the weave to power it and sustain it. They are, if essence, "pure magic" merely because it is the weave made tangible (to an extent) by its very properties.
7) Silverfire is indeed "raw" or "pure" magic. Spells, one could say, have the purpose of transmuting that raw magic into something mages can use (and sometimes abuse) to have a desired effect. Now, don't think that the Chosen have access all the time to "raw" magic, as that would quickly kill any non-divine creature (and some divine ones!), Rather, Mystra has bestowed them with the ability to channel short bursts of pure magic.
You said:
"Now - The Chosen can repair rents in the Weave with Silverfire from OUTSIDE a rent. This to me seems to suggest that Silverfire is a more potent force than the Weave (yet also somehow OF the Weave). And this hypothesis may hold because Mystra limits access to Silverfire - precisely because it is so uber-powerful."
Now let me tell you why you are right, and why you are so close to being more right.
The chosen can indeed repair rents in the weave (I have a feeling though that you are speaking from your Experience with Elminster: The Making of a Mage. Keep in mind that the rent he was repairing was a rent in the planar boundaries caused by the weave, not necessarily in the weave.
Rents in the weave would be defined as magic dead areas, wild magic areas, or other, as yet undefined things. The chosen can purge dead magic and wild magic areas with silverfire because it is pure magic. The reason these areas have not already been purged is because the weave cannot reach them, but the chosen, in essence, bring the weave to the dead/wild magic area.
Now, as for your confusion with silverfire being more powerful than the weave but also being of it. Silverfire is drawn from the weave. It is more powerful than normal spells merely because it is a pure form of magic, directly from the weave, whereas spells are tempered by a mortal's skill. Silverfire is not more powerful than the weave, it is just directly drawn from it.
8) I can promise you her portfolio has suprises in it because her portfolio includes both Magic and "Mysteries." I think a very wise designer added in "mysteries" because they knew Mystra to be a being with endless possiblities.
9) The weave is magic, we just draw magic from it. THe quote you are referring to when you speak of aligning the SilverFire with the Mythallar has an omission. I realize now that I should have stressed something to help you better understand. The reason that Silvefire (pure magic) so affected the Mythallar was because it was a Shadow Mythallar. I should have stressed that. If they used Silverfire on a normal Mythallar (is any Mythallar really normal?) then it would have had absolutely no affect, because both are sources of pure magic. If pure magic comes into contact with pure magic, nothing would happen or else Faerun would not exsist because the Weave is constantly in contact with itself. Now, the reason that what the chosen did was so important and so awe-inspiring, let me repeat, is because they used pure magic from the Weave against the Shadow Mythallar, which was part of the Shadow Weave. As we have already discussed, when pure magic comes into contact with Shadow Magic, in the words of Pikel Bouldershoulder, "Boom Boom."
10)Really, you could consider mages as a conduit for magic. The weave is magic and we are what transforms it into our desired effects. Sometimes when you deal with really powerful spells you are conducting a larger amount of pure magic through your body, and so that is why some mages age unnaturally, because their body is worn out from the inside by the weave running through them too much and too often.
11) No no no no, the Weave lost none of its potency to the Shadow Weave. Keep in mind that the Shadow Weave has existed as long as, and right beside, the Weave. It just hasn't always been known of. After Karsus' Avatar spell, the Weave was severely wounded. Mystryl Sacrificed herself to save the Weave from total destruction. Mystra, realizing that mortals were not wise enough to handle such vast amounts of magic, limited what magic we could use and what heights we could reach. that is why we can only cast 9th level spells, whereas previous mages had gone up to 11th and Karsus had gone up to 12th. Now, not only did Mystra limit us to that magic because we were not mature enough, but she also did it for another, hopeful reason. She suspected that if she limited the draw we placed on magic, that the weave would actually be able to heal what damage Karsus had done. She suspected this because evidence abounded that whenever damage was done to the weave (never before on so large a scale as what Karsus had done) it had healed itself immediately. So, when Mythals were destroyed, when powerful spells went wrong, and little holes were rent in the weave, it healed them eventually. Mystra's theory has supposedly proven correct, but no one knows if the new Mystra plans on allowing us to reach our former heights with magic. Perhaps the weave is not one hundred percent healed, perhaps she thinks we still aren't wise enough, perhaps she has yet another ulterior motive for why she neither will allow us full access to the weave, nor will she tell us why.
12)Also, Selune did not create Mystryl. Once again, in your next post please make a note of asking for the creation tale as I have heard of it, and I will write it. I cannot do it now because I must go and I know I will forget unless you ask, that is, if you want to hear it.
13) To the best of my knowledge "whole" magic is merely another term for "pure" magic, which is merely magic of the Weave and not the Shadow Weave. Just like you said, that term probably developed on other boards and is not in anyway "canon," nor can it be respected as "fact" by rather, as "theory." I am not quite sure why I put those two things in quotation marks.
Anywho, thank you very much for listening, for allowing me to share my knowledge, and accepting it so readily. I do make a point only to speak of what I know and not what I guess. So you can be sure that I am not just pulling stuff out of my ass, but rather and drawing this knowledge from my collected learning from published materials.
Thank you also for being so gracious and intelligent, as sharing my knowledge with hacks is not very fun, nor rewarding. I truly feel as if I am among scholars, and thank you for that atmosphere.
If you have any questions, please ask. If you have any requests on further information or more detail on any subject, please ask.
Also, I have one more suggestion. Perhaps for the rest of this thread we should number ideas as I have in this post so that when we refer to other posts, we don't need to use quotes but can merely title responses by the number of the idea we are responding to. If you catch my drift. So, you say something on one, and then in my next post I would say, referring to Subject #1 and then go from there.
Anywho, up to you guys.
Thank you so very much once again.
Fare-thee-well! |
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Until Next We Meet. |
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Nakil Delquion
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2003 : 01:43:46
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| Just an idea, I think that our status as a scribe and whatnot should not be dictated by posts (like all the other forums) but rather, by words in each post. I think if that was the case I would now be amongst the elder scribes or whatever the higher positions are. It would make me very happy if such is the case, because then the pain I have in my fingers and my hands would be rewarded with Status. Anywho, just a pleasant thought. :-) |
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Until Next We Meet. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2003 : 06:21:15
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Also, I just finished reading your quote from Magic of Faerun, and I can definitely tell you that it is all wrong. Sometimes they have freelance writers who write their own take that is not accepted later on. For example, the book Wizards and Rogues of the Realms is written by a guy who has never written anything else before or since for the Realms, has included numerous kits (such as Halruuan wizard, Cormanthyran, Waterdhavian, et cetera) whose details were later refuted, reprinted, and corrected in later books! The author of Magic Faerun must also be in that category. The reason I say that theory is all wrong is because the Shadow weave to necromancy and enchantment. Malanthius has also mentioned (I believe) that the Shadow Weave is not connected to necromancy and enchantment, and he is correct. The reason why the author of Magic of Faerun said that is either because he is an uneducated hick, or because actual shadow magic hadn't been invented yet, or possibly because he confused Shadow Magic with the kit, Shadow Mage.
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I have alot of trouble with your explanations Nakil. You cannot possibly say a book is wrong to prove your point. I had some suspicions that many of your theories were slightly askew, but now I know they are. WHO was the person that said the freelance writer (possibly an uneducated HICK????) (GIVE ME A BREAK!) was definitely wrong? If I must go with YOUR opinion or a FACT in a book, I am going to go with a FACT in a book until I am aware of your credentials or sources which you have thus far been unable to provide.
According to PAGE 57 of the CAMPAIGN GUIDE: SHAR DID INDEED CREATE THE SHADOW WEAVE. "During the course of her eternal war with the goddess Selune, the goddess SHAR created the shadow weave in response to SELUNE'S creation of Mystra nad the birth of the weave." Is this wrong as well? Did a freelance writer mess this up as well? an uneducated HICK perhaps?
You are also not entirely correct on the mythal, which if I had time I would go through and dig out the Ruins of Myth Drannor from my basement and give you quotes there as well, but I just don't have the time.
I appreciate your help, but you are are starting to sound as if you are only making interpretations and presenting them as fact. SO far I can see nothing separating your so called facts from interpretation.
CONVENIENTLY eliminating material from a published book doesn't work. If you are the magister in your campaign world that is fine, but as I recall, there can only ever be one magister, and since I do not see you listed in Any of the campaign source material, I guess then that you are just another spellcaster trying to attain that wonderful position...
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 01 Aug 2003 06:23:00 |
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Malanthius
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2003 : 20:37:51
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Hmmm, i think i begin to see what we're disagreeing over, perspective.
Start from the beginning with what's been published (and please remember that the lore in 3rd edition was taken from all previous to try to sow up different threads in previous additions and is excepted as official cannon wether we like it or not.)
The beginning, AO, Shar and Selune. These three work together (or AO causes the sisters and they fill things out) to create Chauntea, then the embodiment of aber-toril. (Second note, this is all comparitive mythology,as collected by priests of the realms, meaning something else entirely could have happened, but this is what the people of faerun believe) Chauntea begs for warm, and selune reaches into the elemental plane of fire (indication that all elemental planes, including demi, existed prior to realmspace or happened at the same time creation wise) to create a ball of fire that provided warmth. This upsets shar and the sisters start fighting for the first time. These battles apparently caused the creation of the first gods of war,death, luck, etc. In a final effort, Selune ripped off a portion of her essence that constituted magic (if you want to look at it another way, her portfolio connections to magick and time) and hurled it at her sister, the portion ripped through shar, tearing off a portion of shar in the process ( shar's portfolio connection to mysteries, and her latent portfolio connection to the demi plane of shadow and the shadow weave) coming together to form Mystryl,the original mother of all magic and goddess(protector) of the weave.
As with most legends, while containing certain amounts of truth, it doesn't tell the truth of it. The main point being that in truth, the forces behind the creation of aber-toril and realmspace weren't gods, or at least they didn't have the same forms as the beings now known to the inhabitants of the realms.
Ultimately, a deity or power is the mask or interpretation mortal beings place on the raw forces of the universe. In this sense the various human gods (ie Selune, Shar, Mystryl) are interpretations of forces that predate humanity.
In this sense they were created by their worshipers. The deities themselves do not remember other than how they're followers believe them to have existed. They're wasn't always a mystryl, but they're always has been a force behind the weave, and for a time it also possesed some dominance over the shadoweave. Thus it was there was a time when an arcanist (arcane age/netheril) could master both weaves without difficulty when they were "administered" by Mystryl (see short story in Realms of Shadow) At one time the force that became shar possesed a connection to the demiplane of shadow, and the possiblity that could become the shadow weave, This portion of that force was seperated when it "fought" with it's opposite. (selune)
So it can truthfully said that both the Gods of Faerun have always existed, and yet at the same time they were created by mortals.
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"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's." |
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Nakil Delquion
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2003 : 04:26:59
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Unfortuneately I do not have enough time to discuss this as much as I would like. I will thank you for your honesty, Mournblade, but then also remind you that there is nothing wrong with being polite, or at least keeping up the pretense of etiquette. They do indeed use freelance writers and then publish their work only to correct it later, I gave you an example and will give you more if necessary.
I own the Fall of Myth Drannar, and would like to remind you that it is NOT the Fall of Myth Drannor but Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves that holds information on the Mythal. If you were getting your Mythal information from the Fall of Myth Drannor, then I can see why you are mistaken and confused.
I would also like to remind you that I offered to give you credentials and quotes if asked, so you do not need to be terse, but could politely ask to see my sources. Merely stating, "Campaign Guide" says this, doesn't help me understand your point. There have been various Campaign Guides, some with Myths and not "facts" because they were intended for players. Do you know what revisions are? That is where people go back to something they write and then re-write it so that it fits better with current fictional works. May I humbly suggest to you that it is possibile (though I am not stating it as certain fact) that you are merely reading out of an outdated guide? I wish this to remain as polite as possible, but I do take offense to some of your words.
As Elminster once said, Everything I say is certainly not false, but not all of it may prove to be true. I am not saying that I am lying, but merely, it is a matter of preference which books you use, the ones that are considered "canon" and "up-to-date" or the ones that are outdated. There is also the very real possiblity that two conflicting ideas were written and published, as that has happened many, MANY, times before. THey cannot possibly check every word of every page of every book to match it up with every other word of every other page in every other book.
Also, I didn't say the book was wrong in order to prove my point, or at least I don't think I did, but I merely said that the book was wrong, and I pointed out a right one (or at least the POSSIBILITY of a "right one" to prove my point. You are looking at this from a "glas half-empty" perspective.
Now, Legends of the Fall is back on, and I really want to watch. I am eager for your response, and what I think should be an apology, but I beg at least one thing from you:
If you do not agree with anything I say, so be it. I would love to be a mage, but never have I ever thought of changing another person's mind against their will. It is your perogative to dislike and discredit me at your whim. HOwever, I would like you to respect what credibility I have with others but not slandering me in public, especially when your comments are unfounded.
I thank you however for your critical out look, and offer you my sincerest apology if anything I said unsettled you in any way, shape, or form.
Sincerely and hopefully,
Nakil Delquion.
Post Script:
If you do want me to list my sources, I will do so. I haven't thus far because my computer is two levels above my books, and carting them up here is not a task I relish (especially because they are so numerous and so hefty!). Thank you for your time and concern,
Nakil Delquion. |
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Until Next We Meet. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2003 : 08:36:47
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I will start by saying that nothing I said warrants any sort of apology, as I certainly did not slander your name, I merely challenged the presentation of your information. I do not think you should present your information as if you are one of the authoritative staff of writers at Wizards. If you are one of these writers, then by all means just say so, and I will take back all I have said. I know perfectly well what revisions are but you have shown no evidence that any revision has happened. The campaign guide I speak of is 3rd edition. If that warrants being outdated then so be it.
I will be clear on what my point was in my last post.
You were presenting information as if it was CANON FACT, and that other peoples interpretation were wrong. Yet you did not solidly present any evidence to prove your interpretations were indeed the correct one (if there is one).
Do not say that what the current realms reader knows about the creation of the weave is wrong, when the campaign guide of 3rd edition published in June of 2001 (just so you know EXACTLY which one I mean so that it cannot be misconstrued as outdated)says that SHAR did indeed create the shadow weave. Certainly you can offer an alternative explanation that will be respected, but the holier than thou tone in which it is presented may set some people off. You still have not proven how the campaign guide's explanation of the creation of the weave was wrong and your explanation is correct.
Yes I wrote ruins of Myth Drannor, but had I gone down to get that set of mine I would of been perfectly safe because Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves is kept in that same little box. I do apologize for saying Ruins of Myuth Drannor, and mistaking where that information was located.
Nothing you said offends me in any way except for the Hick remark which is just... well I suppose you were trying to make a joke.
My post was meant as a challenge, and so far your rebuttal has been hedging remarks and dodging. I mean you no ill will, but I WILL challenge anyone who presents authoritative information without the evidence to back it.
As malanthius said: The old canon is just as relevant as the NEW canon. If it was written in 2nd edition it still holds true to the 3rd. 3rd edition did a nice job of tying up the loose ends, but what was written in 2nd edition still generally holds true. Please be clear, the campaign guide I quoted was THIRD edition. And the Book you claimed in your post as being wrong, the Magic of Faerun was ALSO third edition. Perhaps you feel they are outdated as they were published 2 years ago, but regardless, the information in them holds true.
You mentioned that often sources publish conflicting information (which unfortunately is true). I agree with this fully, however, just because you have decided that one source is correct and the other is not does not mean that the other sages of the realms have. Often the conflicting sources have been corrected by the Realms staff, and often times they have not, but regardless of that, if you are not a realms staffer present your thoughts as alternative and not canon.
If you know something on canon material from the publishers that is corrected through revisions (which I NOW understand what they are thanks to your eloquent explaination of what revisions are), or generally not known PLEASE by all means share it. But do not post information contrary to the books and expect people just to accept it.
Your posts are interesting and generally informative, but keep in mind, though you quote Elminster, do not presume to be his equal when it comes to presenting information and having it believed.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Nakil Delquion
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2003 : 16:49:08
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Ahah! But when material conflicts with different sources, it is then that we must decide what is true and what is false. At least, we must choose what will be true and false to US as individuals. I can agree to have a difference in opinion. However, The topic on which I have been speaking I have read much on and studied as much as one could, so I can see the whole picture and what details fit and what details don't. Shar creating the weave just dosen't fit with some of ther other things people have said in other tomes.
Also, I know I haven't prevented any sources, I even made that remark, I think, In all of my posts! I offered, if one would just ask politely, to go down and get my books, come back up, and point out pages, write quotes, and whatnot.
I still haven't done so because right now I am trying to floss and getting ready for the gym, so I don't have time. If you see it as necessary or desire to see my credentials, then ask me, thus far, you have not. And please, if you do ask, tell me which specific points you would like proven.
I, just for your information, follow 2nd edition D&D. Perhaps, just perhaps, they changed their theory on the Shadow Weave to fit the direction of the new campaign. All that I know is what I have read (and I have read it many times over), and that is 2nd Edition material. I have spent over three thousand dollars on all of my materials over a 14 year period or so, and have absolutely NO PLANS on switching to 3rd Edition, where I can spend another 3000 dollars. I have firmly rooted in the past, and like it there.
I present my material as canon, because it is, or was, when it was published.
I am not a writer for TSR/WoTC/Hasbro, but I am authoritive. I am authoritive, not because of my tone, but rather, because I am a player of Forgotten Realms. We all, as Forgotten Realmsies, have some measure of authority, because it is for us the material is written for, and it is us that they are trying to please.
Also, I believe I understand what a Forum is, as, after all, I have learned the Latin language while studying Roman culture. Even though this is not exactly like the Forums of old, the forums of today still follow some of the tenets set forward centuries agone. One such tenet is that any one may present any thing, and it is up to his audience to believe it or disregard it.
Some people may, wisely, choose to believe what I have said. Some people are teetering on the edge and need me to cite sources, which I would do willingly. Some people will not believe me at all, and that is fine, because I cannot convince of what they cannot convince themselves. It is your perogative,as I said before, to believe or not believe.
Also, an earlier remark of yours, I believe you said that "I cannot just present information, adding words and taking them away from certain books" or something to that effect (I don't have time to look for it right now). You are charging me with plagarism, which is indeed a crime and a foul one at that. Charging me, or even SUGGESTING that, not only hurts me profoundly deep down in my heart of hearts, but it also SLANDERS my name. So yes, you have slandered my name.
Though I thank you for challenging my information. Anyone who cannot defend their ideas and thoughts from a challenge, is not worthy of spitting them out in the first place.
Do not use this quote against me and say "Well you still haven't really defended yourself by citing sources" because I know that. All I have done is bantered back and forth with you trying to placat you and such. I have, however, offered to defend myself, should you require it. I do indeed dread bringing up my many books up two flights of stairs.
Also, just as I cannot presume to be Elminster's equal, and that was an intelligent remark that I applaud you for, do not presume to know what the "current realms reader" would know and not know.
I apologize if I am cutting this short or not answering some of your questions, but I really must go.
I thank you for your wisdom, your inquisitiveness, and your audacity.
I hope you have a pleasant Saturday.
Farewell. |
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Until Next We Meet. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2003 : 18:02:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Nakil Delquion
I will disect your last post and respond to each item individually so there is no further misunderstanding (my posts will be written in blue):
Ahah! But when material conflicts with different sources, it is then that we must decide what is true and what is false. At least, we must choose what will be true and false to US as individuals. I can agree to have a difference in opinion. However, The topic on which I have been speaking I have read much on and studied as much as one could, so I can see the whole picture and what details fit and what details don't. Shar creating the weave just dosen't fit with some of ther other things people have said in other tomes.
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Ok that is fine but keep in mind once again this is your interpretation, and so you should not dismiss other's interpretation as being wrong.
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Also, I know I haven't prevented any sources, I even made that remark, I think, In all of my posts! I offered, if one would just ask politely, to go down and get my books, come back up, and point out pages, write quotes, and whatnot.
I have asked previosuly for you to cite sources in a most polite way in previous posts which you must not have read. IN fact I asked it in two threads. IF you do not want to that is OK. I KNOW where you get your information from, as I have all the 2nd edition material, as well as first edition. I know the sources you use, except some miscellaneous novels.
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I, just for your information, follow 2nd edition D&D. Perhaps, just perhaps, they changed their theory on the Shadow Weave to fit the direction of the new campaign. All that I know is what I have read (and I have read it many times over), and that is 2nd Edition material. I have spent over three thousand dollars on all of my materials over a 14 year period or so, and have absolutely NO PLANS on switching to 3rd Edition, where I can spend another 3000 dollars. I have firmly rooted in the past, and like it there.
RIGHT! Now this explains alot! Yes your posts sometimes are contrary to 3rd edition, which is OK. You are telling some scribes here that some of the third edition books are incorrect. This is where I primarily draw issue. I will concede your 2nd edition material is correct, for I have read it extensively as well. BUT the third edition had some changes. If you do not wish to follow third edition that is perfectly fine (though you are missing out on some good story elements), but understand MANY of us here do. This is where the problem stems. You are familiar with 2nd edition. I am familiar with 2nd edition and 3rd edition, and the latter has added some information to this shadow weave conundrum. Therefore, it is because of this addition of 3rd edition information that I said your information was slightly askew (ironic isn't it since you said MY sources were outdated). If you do not wish to use this 3rd edition information that is perfectly acceptable, as there is information from 3rd edition that I eliminate as well. However, this scroll, sages of realms lore is for Canon information, and I beleive most of the scribes here use 3rd edition. THerefore, since you are unfamiliar with it, please realise that some of your information is outdated for a 3rd edition game. There is no reason to present it as any other way than point of fact.
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I present my material as canon, because it is, or was, when it was published.
Yes you certianly do. BUt please remember your remark in a previous post about MY information being slightly outdated. My friend for this forum only, some of your information may be outdated. Keep it as you like for YOUR campaign, but realise in this forum, we are primarily discussing Published canon, and not individual campaign worlds. If your campaign world only uses 2nd edition, please present your ideas with the understanding that SOME 3rd edition items may now disagree with it.
I am not a writer for TSR/WoTC/Hasbro, but I am authoritive. I am authoritive, not because of my tone, but rather, because I am a player of Forgotten Realms. We all, as Forgotten Realmsies, have some measure of authority, because it is for us the material is written for, and it is us that they are trying to please.
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Also, I believe I understand what a Forum is, as, after all, I have learned the Latin language while studying Roman culture. Even though this is not exactly like the Forums of old, the forums of today still follow some of the tenets set forward centuries agone. One such tenet is that any one may present any thing, and it is up to his audience to believe it or disregard it.
Some people may, wisely, choose to believe what I have said. Some people are teetering on the edge and need me to cite sources, which I would do willingly. Some people will not believe me at all, and that is fine, because I cannot convince of what they cannot convince themselves. It is your perogative,as I said before, to believe or not believe.
I have never said that you should not post here, nor do I wish for you to discontinue doing so. The forums of old also, as you well know was a place where ideas could be challenged. If you insist, on posting with disregard to 3rd edition, than so be it, but realise your posts may be corrected or challenged, as well as revered.
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Also, an earlier remark of yours, I believe you said that "I cannot just present information, adding words and taking them away from certain books" or something to that effect (I don't have time to look for it right now). You are charging me with plagarism, which is indeed a crime and a foul one at that. Charging me, or even SUGGESTING that, not only hurts me profoundly deep down in my heart of hearts, but it also SLANDERS my name. So yes, you have slandered my name.
If you had time to look for my quote you would realise that I did not slander your name, or accuse you for plagiarism, and I will not even entertain that notion. What you did do however as I have stated previously, is say that some of our 3rd edition sources were wrong. Furthermore, according to your post since you never read 3rd edition, you said that the sources were wrong without even reading them (remember they might have been written by an uneducated hick?). My point was this. A book had information you did not know about or like, and so you siad it was WRONG. THis is where I draw most of my problems from.
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Though I thank you for challenging my information. Anyone who cannot defend their ideas and thoughts from a challenge, is not worthy of spitting them out in the first place.
I could not agree more. Please consider this quote if you decide to respond.
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Do not use this quote against me and say "Well you still haven't really defended yourself by citing sources" because I know that. All I have done is bantered back and forth with you trying to placat you and such. I have, however, offered to defend myself, should you require it. I do indeed dread bringing up my many books up two flights of stairs.
I beleive this matter has already been addressed. Thank you for your time.
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Also, just as I cannot presume to be Elminster's equal, and that was an intelligent remark that I applaud you for, do not presume to know what the "current realms reader" would know and not know.
Thank you for the advise and I shall never presume to know that which they may or may not know.
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I apologize if I am cutting this short or not answering some of your questions, but I really must go.
I thank you for your wisdom, your inquisitiveness, and your audacity.
Nakil, your posts are informative, and welcomed. Now that I understand what perspective you are coming from your posts will take a different spin. They are certainly welcomed and encouraged. As for me I will not discuss this matter any further. You my friend if you so desire may take the last word. I will not respond to anything involving this slight conflict, so as to spare the other scribes. If you would like you can email me if you have any personal problems with me, for I have no personal problems with you.
I hope you have a pleasant saturday as well!
Until Swords Part!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 02 Aug 2003 18:08:16 |
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Malanthius
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2003 : 19:49:26
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For those of you who have patiently taken the time to read the above yet find yourselves still lacking in understanding, i shall strive to clarify. This was not an "argument" merely a very long and drawn out debate over various inconsistencies in both game mechanics and lore.
To anyone who is of different opinion on this fact i would like to simply state the following: Boy do i like being the last to post. 
Mal (shamelessly making fun) |
"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's." |
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Nakil Delquion
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2003 : 23:25:31
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Just trying to be the last one to post.
Have a blast! |
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Until Next We Meet. |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 20:15:19
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...and this, the third I found here I cut a decade ago. This was one of hundreds of thread discussions in really interesting discussions about Faerunian Lore.....
cheers
sil |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 07:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Nakil DelquionFirst keep in mind that Shar has no "magic" indicitive of herself. It is not "Shar's" weave. It is merely the Shadow Weave.
Uh, no. It's Shar's Weave. She owns it. The 3rd edition of Faiths and Pantheons pretty much makes it clear that Shar has control over the Shadow Weave as Mystra has control over the Weave. Its name appears to only refer to its nature.
quote:
True, Shar has delved deeper in it than any other power with the possible exception of Mystra. But it is also true that the Shadow Weave is something that extends accross the multiverse, even in places where Shar has no power.
Uh, no. The Weave encompasses the multiverse as well. Otherwise Midnight denying the Weave to Cyric would have been rather laughable since it would only have affected him on Toril.
quote:
This is because the Shadow Weave has its origins in the Demi-Plane of Shadow. The person who discovered the Shadow Weave on Faerun (some will erroneously dub him the "inventor" of the Shadow Weave) is none other than Shadow, an enigmatic arcanist of the days of Netheril.
This is directly contrary to what we're told though. We're told that the Shadow Weave and the Weave were once one--it was Karsus's blatant misuse of magic that caused the Weave to be sundered. Karsus's Heart was whole magic, in that it allowed one to access 10th+ magic.
quote:
Keep in mind that the Shadow Weave and the Weave cover Faerun (and the rest of the multiverse) in the same manner, but that they do not actually come into contact as pure incarnations. Also, the Shadow Weave will only make its presence known when someone skilled in the Art taps into it, or when something from the Demi-Plane of Shadow is about.
Anyone can access the Shadow Weave, but it is wholly dangerous without the blessing of Shar.
quote:
I am not positive as to what you mean by "Whole Magic," so I will assume you mean, "Pure Magic." The Karstone is not an infusion of the Shadow Weave and the Weave. In fact, as stated in Elaine Cunnigham's King's and Counselor's series and the War of the Archwizards series, if pure incarnations of the Shadow Weave and the Weave ever come into contact, a very serious and powerful implosion would occur, tearing a rift in the multiverse and doing tons of other nasty, nasty things. The Karstone is merely a pure source of the Weave.
Except the Archwizards series does indeed portray the the Karstone as whole magic. With it, the Shadovar were able to perform magical feats that were otherwise denied to them by the Shadow Weave and the Weave itself. As for why the two Weaves now oppose each other, that's likely due to the damaged state of the Shadow Weave and Shar's own tampering. Nor do them opposing each other in such a way immediately mean that they cannot or could not have been at one time the same. Ie, particle accelerators can create positrons (the counterpart to electrons) by driving electrons through the nucleus of gold.
Heck, at the very end of the Archwizards, we saw the High Elf Mage use both the Shadow Weave and the Weave to repair the mythal.
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The weakening of the Chosen's powers came from an ancient item called a Mythallar.
The Mythallars don't inhibit magic; they provide magical energy, at least enough to allow for Cantras and quasi-magical items. If anything, the Chosen should have been more powerful, not weaker.
quote:
Mythallars were once relatively common in the days of Netheril, and many believe (falsely) that the only one now in existence is the one found on the Enclave of Shadow. Mythallars acted as "powerhouses." They were, to an extent, pure incarnations of the Weave. They allowed huge amounts of power to flow from the weave to sustain the protective magics of the Floating Enclaves, and to keep the Enclaves themselves, afloat. Shadow, after becoming an Archwizard in his own right and after making numerous and substantial discoveries in the mysterious field of Shadow Magic, created his own "Shadow Mythallar." This Mythallar acted in much the same way as other Mythallars, with the possibilities of a few minor differences. This Shadow Mythallar was (and is, I suppose) a direct incarnation of the Shadow Weave.
That's completely nonsensical. The reason why the Shadovar required the Source to restore Sakkors was because they can't actually produce new mythallars...but supposedly Shadow has a Shadow Mythallar design that he can produce at any time? It flies directly in the face of Mystra's Ban, a massive plot point in the Archwizards, where the Shadovar needed the Karstone to melt the glaciers to the north.
quote:
Because the Chosen of Mystra are directly dependent on Mystra for their powers (as evidenced by Elminster's weakness during the time of troubles, when no Mystra was there to give him his abilities) the Shadow Magic wreaked by the Shadow Mythallar overwhelmed, to an extent, their connection to their goddess. Likewise, what powers they did have, such as the Silver Fire, that were pure incarnations of the Weave, would completely and utterly destroy the Shadow Mythallar if ever they came in contact with it.
Silver Fire can destroy all non-living matter to begin with. Presumably a magical item would be more resistant, but given that a stone giant could damage it with a (possibly magical) hammer suggests that Silver Fire itself wouldn't have to be its counterpart to be a danger.
quote:
After reading more of your post, and not wanting to reread mine, I will reiterate that Shar has no direct connection with either the Weave or the Shadow Weave.
Uh, yes she does. She has total control of the Shadow Weave and it was suggested by Malik that her control stems from her holding of the Karstone, which acts as her 'crown' over the Shadow Weave. Malik's whole part in the divine scheme was for him to steal the secret of the Shadow Weave from Shar.
quote:
Also it should be noted that the Karstone doesn't actually "function." Part of its tale is recounted here:
"Thus his heart is one of the purest connections to the Weave. It is unknown why the previous and the Current Mystra have allowed it to remain (if even they could remove it), but remain it does, as an ever-present reminder of the folly of greed."
My theory is a bit different.
As we're told, the Weave was once one. The Shadow Weave is not a new thing, it's not different. The Shadow Weave were the parts of the Weave that had been sundered when Karsus stole magic from Mystryl and couldn't properly control it. So great was the damaged to the cleaved weave was that it was no longer compatible with the rest of the Weave. Though it is without a doubt that Mystra would have been able to restore the Weave, she apparently decided to leave it as it is; to keep mortals from stepping beyond their means and threatening all magic again.
Let's think of the Weave as a power grid. The Old Weave allowed you to access 10th, 11th, and 12th level magic. The New Weave was damaged only allowed access to 9th. The Shadow Weave, being a mere shadow woven from the damaged remains of the Old Weave could also not access 10th+ magic. But the Karsus stone was basically the connecting point to both; it is where the Shadow Weave and the Weave meet. With it, one can tap into 10th+ magic.
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Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 11:02:36
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Hi Milith,
Interesting points. Nice to see some input about stuff I just love to chat about, at no end :)
Control over access to the Shadow Weave is Shar's purview. So, I'm not disagreeing with you. But. Ownership over it (Shadow Weave) would have to involve a dependent relationship. You only own things that have ties, by dependency to you. So, implcations of that: should Shar cop it, I'd imagine the Shadow Weave would be claimed, restored, or overseen by a new deific entity. E.g. Mystryl - Karsus - Mystra. This is what I mean when I use language "it is merely the Shadow Weave". It can be wrested from her, is an implication of Realmslore. She owns it until she loses it, is the simpler way to put that.
I'm not sure the 'resurrected fragments' idea for post Karsus Avatar accounts for some other interesting phenomena. The reason for some scepticism: for example, why do Shadow Mythallar occupy less volume than their Weave equivalents? So, there is implied, by some of these obscure phenomena that there are key metaphysical differences in the very organisation and nature of the 'conduits' for channelling magic into Realmspace.
On your other point: yes--the stuff about Shar and Realmspace is understood. But, my point about 'her influence' having some real limits in the Multiverse (a very big place) recognises that there are means, within Realmspace, to isolate influence of a particular Deity, for special reasons, circumstances, or impacts upon the fabric of reality (e.g. dead magic zones). There can be socio-political relations between affiliated and dis-affiliated Deities, for example, as a means of limiting influence. These are 'by agreement' limits.
As another example, what was never really clearly developed in Realmslore, was whether or not a Dead Magic Zone could be created for Shadow Weave. The possibility was implied, but we never saw such an event (remember, I need to play catch ups--has anything new been revealed in new books for example?)
So....this leaves me thinking about my next post -- a concept idea about the 'what exactly, the bleep, is Shadow Weave?' |
Edited by - Silmarien Aldalome on 22 Feb 2014 11:06:03 |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 11:22:56
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On The Genesis of the Shadow Weave
Most of the materials I've read (recognising that I've not read it all) suggest, imply or state the "weave got split" at some point in the Timeline. Most of the commentary points to Karsus Avatar, and some kind of response, result or implication of Shar's influence at that time, during the period when Mystra restores the Weave. There are the Dead magic Zones of the partially restored Weave that get pointed to, to suggest that Mystra did an incomplete job of it. The 'collect the scraps' was one theory, as was 'the weave got split' notions, which are often cited.
About 'what actually happened', I have had some other ideas, with, perhaps, much less data or evidence to support them.
I wonder, whether Shar developed some kind of insight or appreciation for what, exactly, it was Mystra did, to create, so vast a network of Weave that could span Realmspace and the whole Multiverse, in fact. I wonder if she developed that awareness and Lore, by watching smarty pants magic Mystra regig the grid.
So, I've been playing with the idea of 'metaphysical shadowing'. This idea is different to 'weave got split' theories. This new idea suggests that there can be a 'metaphysical shadow' cast by the intersection of Weave with 3Dimensional Reality. And that Shar discerned how to grant her followers, means of channelling magic into Realmspace, by learning about this methaphysical shadow effect.
The theory has a problem. How could such a 'shadow' be in existence, within a Dead Magic Zone? This is not immediately apparent or explained by this new idea.
However, if you assumed that 'metaphysical shadowing' is *not literal* like 3d shadow these seemingly problematic findings can be explained. To get the head around it, you need to think in at least 4 dimensions (and I've said you need at least 5 dimensions for Faerunian Magical Universe). So, when you start thinking about non-3d realities, there is a non-geometrically bound way of seeing how a Shadow of the Weave, can be cast in a 3dimensional space, with *distortions* and weird shapes, not linearly confined to particular locations of any Weave. Another way to put it, is that the area of your body's shadow is different at noon, compared to dawn and dusk, and depending on which way you lean as you face, or stare away from the sun. I imagine the equivalent metaphysical insights might apply to Shar's cognition and so, her manifestation of Shadow Weave.
I've also always had real reservations about the whole 'web' concept, as though there were, somehow, literal 'stitches' of magical 'threads' to 3d reality. The whole 'hose metaphor' (pipes in the weave, you open to pour magic into realmspace), I was also trouble by. It's too literal.
So, I've started to see 'Weave' more as a Startrek 'subspace' concept, where, there is another weird, sub-dimensional organisation of other kinds of 'fabrics' in Realmspace.
I also still really wonder, what exactly is the reason that Shadow Mythallar are smaller? And: what, exactly, does the Karstone *do* to allow Shar to up the ante on magical levels her followers can cast.
And one more thing. I do believe the new Weave can still Chanel beyond 9th level spells, but that Mystra denies access to that, through her blocks. Mum's in charge of how much candy the kids get, but she has some rather large jars, that you can't get, unless somehow, someone figures out how to get around her.
My PrC (this site), that I've renamed Avatar Sun-Sage Master is an attempt to do just that--exceed Mystra's bans. I do this, by blending subatomic energy (Fusion concepts) to magic. The combined energy content of a fusion --ka boom-- idea with the more magicy, magical, glyphs and --ka boom-- that is about another energy form all together.
Have a look here:http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1405&SearchTerms=sun-sage,master for the PrC concept n(sorry I don't know how to post to the exact post, but it's at the bottom of the thread, atm)
Cheers
stav |
Edited by - Silmarien Aldalome on 22 Feb 2014 11:54:08 |
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The Karstone, Weave & Shadow Weave
