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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 21:00:02
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I noticed that there is no Gnome deity with the Knowledge domain. I'm not including Gond as a Gnomish deity because he's not a member of the Gnome pantheon.
What deity would Gnomish cloistered clerics (and bards for that matter) tend to worship? It seems that with bard now being the preferred class of Gnomes that things like history, knowledge and music would be reflected in the pantheon in some tangible game mechanic for the pantheon.
Has this come up in anyone's game?
Thanks in advance! 
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"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 21:42:36
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| Oghma, he's from the Celtic pantheon, fey are from Celtic mythology (mostly), gnomes are of fey origin |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 21:54:52
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How about Nebelun (from Demihuman Deities)? Although, he is an aspect of Gond many gnomes consider Nebelun an actual gnomish deity and separate from Gond.
As a side note, if you have Races of Stone there are some other gnome deities there, although none with the Knowledge domain. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 22:58:24
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Gond and Oghma (and perhaps Deneir) would be reasonable choices if I were looking outside of the Gnomish pantheon.
I am inclined to stay within the Gnome pantheon, and I find the absence of any reference to art, song, history, and knowledge to be a glaring omission (not to even mention family and fertility). Gnomes have always struck me as artistic and studious in all the editions of D&D that I have played. It just seems incongruous that this is ignored in the mechanics of their religion in the Realms. Some of their regional feats reflect these proclivities, but nothing that I'm seeing for religion and clergy in RAW. If I'm overlooking something (cannon or otherwise) please share! 
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Oghma, he's from the Celtic pantheon, fey are from Celtic mythology (mostly), gnomes are of fey origin
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"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 23:45:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
How about Nebelun (from Demihuman Deities)? Although, he is an aspect of Gond many gnomes consider Nebelun an actual gnomish deity and separate from Gond.
As a side note, if you have Races of Stone there are some other gnome deities there, although none with the Knowledge domain.
If I used Nebelun I would be inclined to use him as his own entity. I dislike the notion of many of the demi-human deities being aspects of human deities. I would also have a tough time time reconciling Gond's neutral alignment with Nebelun's CG.
Is there any information on how the Dogma of Nebelun would be distinct from that of Gond?
Has anyone expanded on the Gnome pantheon in FR?
Is it safe to assume that the established list of the Gnomish pantheon is not exhaustive even from a cannon perspective? |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 00:08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
If I used Nebelun I would be inclined to use him as his own entity. I dislike the notion of many of the demi-human deities being aspects of human deities. I would also have a tough time time reconciling Gond's neutral alignment with Nebelun's CG.
Is there any information on how the Dogma of Nebelun would be distinct from that of Gond?
The section on Nebelun in Demihuman Deities actually details, briefly, the separation of Gond and Nebelan. A little of the Meddler's dogma can gathered from the example of Nadul Da-Roni -- Nebelun's most famous devotee. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 00:15:07
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As an extension of this, I've actually fully incorporated Nebelun into my Realms. I used the SPELLJAMMER novel Into the Void as a basis. It wasn't ever clearly defined what happened to the remaining tinker gnomes that were part of the "Probe's" crew [some died, but a few may have been unaccounted for]. So it's a possibility that at least some were left in Rauthaven. I established that these gnomes discovered a lost shrine to Gond somewhere in the city [or maybe a temple once dedicated to a Nimbral-derivative Wonderbringer interpretation], and then began worshipping their own concept of Nebelun as divorced from the Gond/Nimbral Wonderbringer Realms interpretation. Of course, the fact that I'd previously inserted Nebelun into my DRAGONLANCE campaign probably made that easier.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 00:16:18
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quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
If I used Nebelun I would be inclined to use him as his own entity. I dislike the notion of many of the demi-human deities being aspects of human deities. I would also have a tough time time reconciling Gond's neutral alignment with Nebelun's CG.
That is how I would play it too. I like deities to be their own not aspects or other such trickeries.
quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
Is there any information on how the Dogma of Nebelun would be distinct from that of Gond?
The entry in Demihuman Deities (DD) is brief but there is a whole page about Nebelun in Monster Mythology (MM). There is nothing in DD which says how Nebelun differs from Gond. MM describes Nebelun as a builder of machines that seldom work the way they were originally designed to do, a restless wanderer and a bit of a trickster. 'Curiosity, humour, a sense of fun and playful tinkering characterise his actions.' |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 00:24:25
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quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
I am inclined to stay within the Gnome pantheon, and I find the absence of any reference to art, song, history, and knowledge to be a glaring omission (not to even mention family and fertility).
It might well be worth bringing in the gnome goddess, Sheyanna Flaxenstrand (CG Intermediate) from Races of Stone. Her domains are Chaos, Fire, Good, Healing and her portfolio is Love, Beauty and Passion. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 00:36:40
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Cool.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rp/20040114a
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
If I used Nebelun I would be inclined to use him as his own entity. I dislike the notion of many of the demi-human deities being aspects of human deities. I would also have a tough time time reconciling Gond's neutral alignment with Nebelun's CG.
Is there any information on how the Dogma of Nebelun would be distinct from that of Gond?
The section on Nebelun in Demihuman Deities actually details, briefly, the separation of Gond and Nebelan. A little of the Meddler's dogma can gathered from the example of Nadul Da-Roni -- Nebelun's most famous devotee.
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"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 00:55:40
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This does seem to be a significant gap in the pantheon. She could reflect bards and artists as well. This would cover quite a bit of Gnomish culture, so intermediate would seem an appropriate level.
I like Rill too, although craft is not a glaring omission in the pantheon he seems like a good candidate for Knowledge as well.
Does anyone know of any lore that would contradict the inclusion of the RoS deities?
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
I am inclined to stay within the Gnome pantheon, and I find the absence of any reference to art, song, history, and knowledge to be a glaring omission (not to even mention family and fertility).
It might well be worth bringing in the gnome goddess, Sheyanna Flaxenstrand (CG Intermediate) from Races of Stone. Her domains are Chaos, Fire, Good, Healing and her portfolio is Love, Beauty and Passion.
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"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 03:35:37
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| I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed before, or has my search fu failed me? |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
Edited by - bitter thorn on 05 Aug 2009 07:56:03 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 09:36:16
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quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
This does seem to be a significant gap in the pantheon. She could reflect bards and artists as well. This would cover quite a bit of Gnomish culture, so intermediate would seem an appropriate level.
It must have been lonely for the gnome deities before she appeared.
quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
Does anyone know of any lore that would contradict the inclusion of the RoS deities?
I don't but I know of lore that suggests there's plenty of reasons for their inclusion. The Mulhorand, Unther and Orc pantheons are evidence of pantheons from outside Faerun becoming settled. Kiaransalee, Tyr and Nebelun are evidence of individual deities from outside being worshipped. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 09:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
I'm surprised this hasn't been discuss before, or has my search fu failed me?
The reason could be that gnomes and halflings don't get played that often, hence the lack of discussion. The absence of a female gnome deity in the Realms does look like an oversight. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 09:44:20
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| I imagine due to the strong connection of Gnomes, Lantan and Gond, that Gond would be acceptable as part of there pantheon. As I remember in 2nd ed there was a gnomish deity that was basically Gond for Gnomes, would have to check Demihuman Deities. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 01:27:33
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Would Nebelun's domains differ from Gond's beyond alignment?
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
If I used Nebelun I would be inclined to use him as his own entity. I dislike the notion of many of the demi-human deities being aspects of human deities. I would also have a tough time time reconciling Gond's neutral alignment with Nebelun's CG.
Is there any information on how the Dogma of Nebelun would be distinct from that of Gond?
The section on Nebelun in Demihuman Deities actually details, briefly, the separation of Gond and Nebelan. A little of the Meddler's dogma can gathered from the example of Nadul Da-Roni -- Nebelun's most famous devotee.
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"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 03:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
Would Nebelun's domains differ from Gond's beyond alignment?
Well, Nebelun's portfolios are primarily Inventions and Good Luck. That kinda influences his alignment as such, to CG. Whereas, we've Gond who is strictly N and all about Artifice and Smithwork. As such, the CG angle of Nebelun would seem to suggest that he is more inclined to curiously meddle with inventions that would ultimately produce some good. But Gond seems more likely to work away on his craft without giving much significant thought toward either the good or evil intent of his work.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 05 Feb 2009 03:49:29 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 03:52:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
I'm surprised this hasn't been discuss before, or has my search fu failed me?
The reason could be that gnomes and halflings don't get played that often, hence the lack of discussion. The absence of a female gnome deity in the Realms does look like an oversight.
Well, the lack of female gnome deities is mentioned in Demihuman deities, as its apparently a big celestial mystery where they went. So its kind of an acknowledged void in the gnomish pantheon. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 08:03:36
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Well, the lack of female gnome deities is mentioned in Demihuman deities, as its apparently a big celestial mystery where they went. So its kind of an acknowledged void in the gnomish pantheon.
Now you mention it, I recall reading that. Still, I should imagine that gnomes would assume some sort of gnome mother exists. Unless gnome society is very male-dominated. Yet, if that is the case, which I'm sure it isn't, when then does Luthic exist in the Orc pantheon? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 05 Feb 2009 08:04:04 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 22:04:59
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| I had some thoughts on that, but I'm not sure if they'll ever see the light of day, given the lack of a WOTC fan site policy. |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 03:16:54
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Gond's domains are:
Domains: Craft, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Metal, Planning, Pride
How does this look for Nebelun?
Domains: Craft, Chaos, Earth?, Good, Gnome, Knowledge, Metal, Luck
Is there any official word on this, or should we just estimate?
Has anyone DMed for a 3.X cleric of Nebelun?
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
Would Nebelun's domains differ from Gond's beyond alignment?
Well, Nebelun's portfolios are primarily Inventions and Good Luck. That kinda influences his alignment as such, to CG. Whereas, we've Gond who is strictly N and all about Artifice and Smithwork. As such, the CG angle of Nebelun would seem to suggest that he is more inclined to curiously meddle with inventions that would ultimately produce some good. But Gond seems more likely to work away on his craft without giving much significant thought toward either the good or evil intent of his work.
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"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 05:05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
Gond's domains are:
Domains: Craft, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Metal, Planning, Pride
How does this look for Nebelun?
Domains: Craft, Chaos, Earth?, Good, Gnome, Knowledge, Metal, Luck
Well, I think it's important to note that it should probably be a "Good Luck" domain for Nebelun. Just having "Luck" kinda opens it up to both bad and good luck. And that's really not what Nebelun represents. Chaos is interesting, especially if you emphasise Nebelun's "meddler" aspect. I'd change Craft to Inventions [or generate a separate and unique Inventions domain if one doesn't already exist]. I'm not sure about the inclusion of Earth, Gnome, or Knowledge though. To me, it's kinda overloading Nebelun's primary divine focus.
If I were generating domains for Nebelun, I'd stick with:- Inventions/Craft, Good Luck, and maybe Chaos... but that last domain is a stretch.
Of course, I'm not sure how similar or different you're wanting to make Nebelun when compared to Gond. Judging from your earlier replies, I'd initially assumed you wanted some level of differentiation. Hence why I've opted to select only a minimum of domains for Nebelun that shift his focus, somewhat, away from that of Gond in the Realms.
quote:
Is there any official word on this, or should we just estimate?
The only official info we have on the portfolios for both deities exist in Demihuman Deities and Monster Mythology. And they're as I referenced in my earlier reply. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 Feb 2009 05:10:49 |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 14:05:24
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I don't have any particular attachment to the Gnome, Good or Chaos domains. AFAIK, all deities have thier non neutral alignment as domains for some reason in 3.X, and racial deities tend to have thier race. I don't find either of the alignment domains to be especially relavent, but it seems to be automatic.
Based on the mechanics of the Luck domain it might be better named "Good Luck", so I'm OK with that.
Earth domain I can see dropping, but I'm inclined to leave Craft and Metal. The combination of Knowledge and Craft as domains seems to be the norm for deities of invention, but domains can be fairly blunt insturments for a mechanical reflection of portfolios. This kind of thing must have been quite a chore changing from 2nd to 3rd. |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 15:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
Earth domain I can see dropping, but I'm inclined to leave Craft and Metal. The combination of Knowledge and Craft as domains seems to be the norm for deities of invention, but domains can be fairly blunt insturments for a mechanical reflection of portfolios. This kind of thing must have been quite a chore changing from 2nd to 3rd.
I'm not sure I see the Metal domain as appropriate for Nebelun. I mean, 'tis interesting and all, but I'd kinda imagine that metalwork would, usually, fall under the category of Inventions for the most part. Maybe a revised Inventions domain that includes some specific Metal domain aspects would be useful here? Or, at the very least, a more generalised view of what would constitute an Inventions domain from Nebelun's perspective.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 08:02:09
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| Has any one else done any tinkering with the Gnome pantheon. (No pun intended.) |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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DrunkenHadozee
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 22:07:43
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Oooh! My first thread resurrection!
Yes, I have tinkered with the Gnome Pantheon: Garl's rebellious twin brother, Gelf, accompanied by Nebelun and Rill, left long ago on a search for Sheyanna, which the brother's rivalry had driven away. They finally succeeded, and came back some decades ago.(My campaign is very loosely based on 4e.)
Several portfolios overlap(especially crafts & magic), as is expected of a pantheon that essentially functions as a close family(aside from Urdlen, of course.)
Baervan Wildwanderer
NG Intermediate God
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Clergy alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Portfolio: Nature(surface), forests, travel, summer, patron god of the Forest Gnomes(Races of Faerun).
Baravar Cloakshadow
NG Lesser God
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Clergy alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Portfolio: Illusions, deception, traps, wardings, stealth, patron god of the Whisper Gnomes(Races of Stone).
Callarduran Smoothhands
N Intermediate God
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Clergy alignments allowed: LG,NG,LN,N
Portfolio: Stone, stonework, the Underdark, mining, patron god of the Deep Gnomes(Svirfneblin).
Flandal Steelskin
NG Intermediate God
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Clergy alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Portfolio: Metals, smithing(esp. weapons & armor), metalworking, physical fitness, fire.
Gaerdal Ironhand
LG Lesser God
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Clergy alignments allowed: LG,NG,LN
Portfolio: Protection, vigilance, combat, martial defense.
Garl Glittergold
LG Greater God
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Clergy alignments allowed: LG,NG
Portfolio: Gnomes, leadership, law, humor, trickery, gem cutting, finesmithing & lapidary.
Gelf Darkhearth
CN Lesser God
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Clergy alignments allowed: CG,CN,N,LN
Portfolio: Outcasts, revenge, chaos, darkness, shadow magic, cold magic, winter, Patron god of the Ice Gnomes(Frostburn).
Nebelun Turnbolt
CG Intermediate God
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Clergy alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Portfolio: Invention, imagination, engineering, woodcraft, sky, air, daydreams, moon, stars.
Rill Cleverthrush
LN Intermediate God
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Clergy alignments allowed: LN,N,LG,NG
Portfolio: Knowledge, magic(esp. arcane), any work not involving crafts.
Segojan Earthcaller
NG Intermediate God
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Clergy alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Portfolio: Earth, nature(underground), autumn, the dead, patron god of the Rock Gnomes.
Sheyanna Flaxenstrand
CG Intermediate Goddess
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any nonevil
Clergy alignments allowed: Any good
Portfolio: Love, beauty, passion, good, art, diplomacy, water, spring, agriculture, light, sun, patron goddess of the Wavecrest Gnomes(Stormwrack).
Urdlen
CE Intermediate God
Worshipper alignments allowed: Any evil
Clergy alignments allowed: Any evil
Portfolio: Greed, bloodlust, blood, evil, hatred, uncontrolled impulse, patron god of the Spriggans. |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2010 : 03:24:59
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| Cool! Thanks for the input and welcome to Candlekeep! |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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3.X Gnome deity for Knowledge
