Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 Combat Encounters 3.5
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Wrigs13
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
201 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  10:42:14  Show Profile  Visit Wrigs13's Homepage Send Wrigs13 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
This probably a topic that has been covered but I am running a game with players new to 3.5 and combat is dragging to say the least.

Should simple ECL=CR encounters take the best part of an hour to complete? It seems insane to me.

How can I speed things up so I don't fall asleep during the session?

Any advice?

Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition.

Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  12:37:54  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13

This probably a topic that has been covered but I am running a game with players new to 3.5 and combat is dragging to say the least.

Should simple ECL=CR encounters take the best part of an hour to complete? It seems insane to me.

How can I speed things up so I don't fall asleep during the session?

Any advice?



The only advice I can think of is: Make sure the players know what they are gonna do at their turn BEFORE it's their turn (same for the DM). Also, I tend to roll initiative for small groups of monsters, not individually. i.e if there is 12 orcs, no way I'm rolling 12 ini, I'll roll 3 or 4.

I managed to save a lot of time myself by programming my own battle manager, in which I entered ALL the monsters from various sources. I no longer roll any dice except for saving throws. When it's gonna be complete (a matter of months/years I guess) I'm probably gonna post it somewhere.

Oh and by the way, even with my program, some battles still take more than an hour. If you fall asleep, the only thing I can say is: The game is supposed to be fun, not boring, it is for me at least.
Go to Top of Page

Wrigs13
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
201 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  14:27:07  Show Profile  Visit Wrigs13's Homepage Send Wrigs13 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its not that I find the game boring, but I am concerned about the system mechanic for combat. Especially when during the third encounter in a goblin stronghold, a player asks "who am I killing and why?"

I was running a printed adventure so maybe that was the problem, or maybe I just need more donuts to keep everyone awake

Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition.
Go to Top of Page

Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3243 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  15:49:05  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13

Its not that I find the game boring, but I am concerned about the system mechanic for combat. Especially when during the third encounter in a goblin stronghold, a player asks "who am I killing and why?"

I was running a printed adventure so maybe that was the problem, or maybe I just need more donuts to keep everyone awake



Actually, the last bit makes it sound like you're dealing with a group of the 'Artist' or 'Actor' archetypes. People more interested in the Role playing aspect of the game instead of the Roll playing side.

Sit with the players and find out if they want a combat intensive game or one with more character development and interaction.

Of course, being new to the game, they might just be confused as to why the combat and encounters occur and how things work. As time and the game goes on, you should find that, as they begin to understand their character's abilities, combat will speed up.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs

Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 02 Feb 2009 15:59:14
Go to Top of Page

Wrigs13
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
201 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  16:00:46  Show Profile  Visit Wrigs13's Homepage Send Wrigs13 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its not that they don't understand the purpose of combat, having played 2nd Ed AD&D they are painfully aware of the necessity of combat to the system.

As teenagers we were fairly happy with the hack and slash and arguing about who was hardest. Now as adults we still argue about who is hardest but hack and slash just isn't enough any more. In 2nd Ed we found a balance with roleplay and combat mainly because combat could be very quick allowing a 80/20 split for role/roll play, and still level up fairly regularly. In 3rd Ed it seems that to get the same progression you need the split to go the other way. I may be wrong but I can't belive anyone wants to spend all session just moving models around, working out flanking and line of site, and rolling die after die.

Am I missing something in the combat system rules?

Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition.
Go to Top of Page

Sian
Senior Scribe

Denmark
596 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  16:03:39  Show Profile  Visit Sian's Homepage Send Sian a Private Message  Reply with Quote
your missing the part in DM guide where it says that XP can/should be given to parties where they're ROLEplaying heavy with

what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month
Go to Top of Page

Wrigs13
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
201 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  16:11:53  Show Profile  Visit Wrigs13's Homepage Send Wrigs13 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doesn't it say something like roleplay awards should be in the order of 50xp's per character level?

Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition.
Go to Top of Page

Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3243 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  16:13:00  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Exactly, Sian!

XP awards should be given out, not just for traps and encounters, but for handling that diplomacy check correctly, or returning the kidnapped children to their parents! If you look through a number of published adventures, you'll see that there are sidebars that say 'If the PCs accomplished X, award them 400 XP' or somesuch.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
Go to Top of Page

Sian
Senior Scribe

Denmark
596 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  16:22:02  Show Profile  Visit Sian's Homepage Send Sian a Private Message  Reply with Quote
doesn't remember the exact number (if there even is one) ... but nonetheless ... one of the first things in the books is that everything is expected to be tweaked by the DM the way which fits him the most

what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month
Go to Top of Page

Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3243 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  16:33:30  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
DMG, page 40 details "Story Awards".

I'd like to go into more detail, but the Rewards part of the DMG is non-SRD.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
Go to Top of Page

freyar
Learned Scribe

Canada
220 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  16:45:04  Show Profile  Visit freyar's Homepage Send freyar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree that it sounds like your players might be more interested in diplomacy encounters, puzzles, or somesuch. I had the same situation in a campaign a year or so ago, and, like people suggest here, I gave out a lot of XP for non-combat encounters. We had about 1 combat per session, but I also gave plenty of XP for level-appropriate puzzles, diplomacy checks, etc. The point is to make sure there is some risk of, say, angering the Zhent wizard with a bad diplomacy result, etc.

My DnD Links and Creations
Go to Top of Page

ErskineF
Learned Scribe

USA
330 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  18:05:20  Show Profile  Visit ErskineF's Homepage Send ErskineF a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your question seems to be more about speeding up combat than eliminating it in favor of roleplaying, so let me ask where you see the slowdown occurring?

Since these guys are new to 3.5, are they spending a lot of time looking up spell descriptions and figuring out combat options? Combat will take longer if each action has to be researched first. How familar are you with the rules? Are you able to look at a situation and say whether the person has line of sight, or do you have to look up the rule and get out a straight edge?

I find that third edition rules are more complex compared to the PHB-2e rules, but they also give the players a lot more options. It takes awhile to become familar enough with the rules that you don't have to look them up every time though. One thing you might try is writing out the rules for special attacks on index cards and paper clip them to your DM screen. They will be there for easy reference, and writing them down will help you remember them.


--
Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php
Go to Top of Page

Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3243 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  18:26:01  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF

One thing you might try is writing out the rules for special attacks on index cards and paper clip them to your DM screen. They will be there for easy reference, and writing them down will help you remember them.


You could also have the players do the same for their characters.

Right now my campaign is getting into an area where the players are putting a lot of special abilities onto their weapons (instead of the enhancement bonus...), so we have to track what this weapon can do, extra damage, etc. If they have everything on an index card, it makes it a lot easier for them to see that Ability A) applies to target, while Ability B does not.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
Go to Top of Page

Wrigs13
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
201 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  09:05:13  Show Profile  Visit Wrigs13's Homepage Send Wrigs13 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I do have an interesting mix of classes but no spellcasters. One is a Factotum which is a terribly written class that creates more questions than it answers, so that doesn't help, and most characters are moderate combat classes which means they miss as often as not. So it is simply a matter of combat taking many many rounds at the moment. So I need to speed up the bare bones of the combat until BAB's reach a reasonable level.

Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition.
Go to Top of Page

Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3243 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  13:40:17  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13

Well I do have an interesting mix of classes but no spellcasters. One is a Factotum which is a terribly written class that creates more questions than it answers, so that doesn't help, and most characters are moderate combat classes which means they miss as often as not. So it is simply a matter of combat taking many many rounds at the moment. So I need to speed up the bare bones of the combat until BAB's reach a reasonable level.



Ahh... Factotum. There's your problem.

I once asked my DM if I could play a changeling Factotum in our Eberron campaign. When I awoke from the beat-down three days later, I realized the class is a little broken and should only be used by the most experienced players and only in groups where there aren't enough players to get all the 'bases' (e.g. Cleric, Fighter, Mage, Thief) covered.

Edit: Re: speeding up combat and increasing BAB's. Maybe you should consider an NPC party member? Maybe a bard/cleric/wizard that could help buff the characters (Inspire, Bless and the Bear's Strength spells/abilities come to mind). Treat the character as a cohort or an partial party member (only a half share or less of treasure and XP), at least until the party is able to get going on their own.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs

Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 03 Feb 2009 13:43:44
Go to Top of Page

Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  14:42:09  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Ahh... Factotum. There's your problem.

I once asked my DM if I could play a changeling Factotum in our Eberron campaign. When I awoke from the beat-down three days later, I realized the class is a little broken and should only be used by the most experienced players and only in groups where there aren't enough players to get all the 'bases' (e.g. Cleric, Fighter, Mage, Thief) covered.



I've got to read that class, from which sourcebook is it?
Go to Top of Page

Wrigs13
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
201 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  15:34:49  Show Profile  Visit Wrigs13's Homepage Send Wrigs13 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dungeonscape, don't ask why a player would be reading this resource.

Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition.
Go to Top of Page

Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3243 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  16:34:08  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The basics of the class are that Factotums are the ultimate dungeon explorers. They get 'Inspiration Points' with which they can use to cast arcane spells, cast divine spells, use roguish abilities or get better attacks.

It's a starting character class that is the best opener for the Chameleon PrC.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
Go to Top of Page

Wrigs13
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
201 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  16:42:12  Show Profile  Visit Wrigs13's Homepage Send Wrigs13 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To put it simply they are very confused individuals

So will you be if you have one in your game, even the WotC articles don't clarify the class abilities. It's house rules all the way with these bad boys.

Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition.
Go to Top of Page

Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3243 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  16:48:21  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm... The best example of a Factotum.

Red Wizard from 8-Bit Theater

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000