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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 10:42:14
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This probably a topic that has been covered but I am running a game with players new to 3.5 and combat is dragging to say the least.
Should simple ECL=CR encounters take the best part of an hour to complete? It seems insane to me.
How can I speed things up so I don't fall asleep during the session?
Any advice?
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Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 12:37:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
This probably a topic that has been covered but I am running a game with players new to 3.5 and combat is dragging to say the least.
Should simple ECL=CR encounters take the best part of an hour to complete? It seems insane to me.
How can I speed things up so I don't fall asleep during the session?
Any advice?
The only advice I can think of is: Make sure the players know what they are gonna do at their turn BEFORE it's their turn (same for the DM). Also, I tend to roll initiative for small groups of monsters, not individually. i.e if there is 12 orcs, no way I'm rolling 12 ini, I'll roll 3 or 4.
I managed to save a lot of time myself by programming my own battle manager, in which I entered ALL the monsters from various sources. I no longer roll any dice except for saving throws. When it's gonna be complete (a matter of months/years I guess) I'm probably gonna post it somewhere.
Oh and by the way, even with my program, some battles still take more than an hour. If you fall asleep, the only thing I can say is: The game is supposed to be fun, not boring, it is for me at least. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 14:27:07
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Its not that I find the game boring, but I am concerned about the system mechanic for combat. Especially when during the third encounter in a goblin stronghold, a player asks "who am I killing and why?" 
I was running a printed adventure so maybe that was the problem, or maybe I just need more donuts to keep everyone awake  |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 15:49:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Its not that I find the game boring, but I am concerned about the system mechanic for combat. Especially when during the third encounter in a goblin stronghold, a player asks "who am I killing and why?"
I was running a printed adventure so maybe that was the problem, or maybe I just need more donuts to keep everyone awake
Actually, the last bit makes it sound like you're dealing with a group of the 'Artist' or 'Actor' archetypes. People more interested in the Role playing aspect of the game instead of the Roll playing side.
Sit with the players and find out if they want a combat intensive game or one with more character development and interaction.
Of course, being new to the game, they might just be confused as to why the combat and encounters occur and how things work. As time and the game goes on, you should find that, as they begin to understand their character's abilities, combat will speed up. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 02 Feb 2009 15:59:14 |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 16:00:46
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Its not that they don't understand the purpose of combat, having played 2nd Ed AD&D they are painfully aware of the necessity of combat to the system.
As teenagers we were fairly happy with the hack and slash and arguing about who was hardest. Now as adults we still argue about who is hardest but hack and slash just isn't enough any more. In 2nd Ed we found a balance with roleplay and combat mainly because combat could be very quick allowing a 80/20 split for role/roll play, and still level up fairly regularly. In 3rd Ed it seems that to get the same progression you need the split to go the other way. I may be wrong but I can't belive anyone wants to spend all session just moving models around, working out flanking and line of site, and rolling die after die.
Am I missing something in the combat system rules? |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 16:03:39
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your missing the part in DM guide where it says that XP can/should be given to parties where they're ROLEplaying heavy with  |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 16:11:53
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Doesn't it say something like roleplay awards should be in the order of 50xp's per character level?
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Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 16:13:00
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Exactly, Sian!
XP awards should be given out, not just for traps and encounters, but for handling that diplomacy check correctly, or returning the kidnapped children to their parents! If you look through a number of published adventures, you'll see that there are sidebars that say 'If the PCs accomplished X, award them 400 XP' or somesuch. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 16:22:02
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doesn't remember the exact number (if there even is one) ... but nonetheless ... one of the first things in the books is that everything is expected to be tweaked by the DM the way which fits him the most  |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 16:33:30
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DMG, page 40 details "Story Awards".
I'd like to go into more detail, but the Rewards part of the DMG is non-SRD. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 16:45:04
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| I agree that it sounds like your players might be more interested in diplomacy encounters, puzzles, or somesuch. I had the same situation in a campaign a year or so ago, and, like people suggest here, I gave out a lot of XP for non-combat encounters. We had about 1 combat per session, but I also gave plenty of XP for level-appropriate puzzles, diplomacy checks, etc. The point is to make sure there is some risk of, say, angering the Zhent wizard with a bad diplomacy result, etc. |
My DnD Links and Creations |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 18:05:20
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Your question seems to be more about speeding up combat than eliminating it in favor of roleplaying, so let me ask where you see the slowdown occurring?
Since these guys are new to 3.5, are they spending a lot of time looking up spell descriptions and figuring out combat options? Combat will take longer if each action has to be researched first. How familar are you with the rules? Are you able to look at a situation and say whether the person has line of sight, or do you have to look up the rule and get out a straight edge?
I find that third edition rules are more complex compared to the PHB-2e rules, but they also give the players a lot more options. It takes awhile to become familar enough with the rules that you don't have to look them up every time though. One thing you might try is writing out the rules for special attacks on index cards and paper clip them to your DM screen. They will be there for easy reference, and writing them down will help you remember them.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 18:26:01
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
One thing you might try is writing out the rules for special attacks on index cards and paper clip them to your DM screen. They will be there for easy reference, and writing them down will help you remember them.
You could also have the players do the same for their characters.
Right now my campaign is getting into an area where the players are putting a lot of special abilities onto their weapons (instead of the enhancement bonus...), so we have to track what this weapon can do, extra damage, etc. If they have everything on an index card, it makes it a lot easier for them to see that Ability A) applies to target, while Ability B does not. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 09:05:13
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| Well I do have an interesting mix of classes but no spellcasters. One is a Factotum which is a terribly written class that creates more questions than it answers, so that doesn't help, and most characters are moderate combat classes which means they miss as often as not. So it is simply a matter of combat taking many many rounds at the moment. So I need to speed up the bare bones of the combat until BAB's reach a reasonable level. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 13:40:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Well I do have an interesting mix of classes but no spellcasters. One is a Factotum which is a terribly written class that creates more questions than it answers, so that doesn't help, and most characters are moderate combat classes which means they miss as often as not. So it is simply a matter of combat taking many many rounds at the moment. So I need to speed up the bare bones of the combat until BAB's reach a reasonable level.
Ahh... Factotum. There's your problem. 
I once asked my DM if I could play a changeling Factotum in our Eberron campaign. When I awoke from the beat-down three days later, I realized the class is a little broken and should only be used by the most experienced players and only in groups where there aren't enough players to get all the 'bases' (e.g. Cleric, Fighter, Mage, Thief) covered.
Edit: Re: speeding up combat and increasing BAB's. Maybe you should consider an NPC party member? Maybe a bard/cleric/wizard that could help buff the characters (Inspire, Bless and the Bear's Strength spells/abilities come to mind). Treat the character as a cohort or an partial party member (only a half share or less of treasure and XP), at least until the party is able to get going on their own. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 03 Feb 2009 13:43:44 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 14:42:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Ahh... Factotum. There's your problem.
I once asked my DM if I could play a changeling Factotum in our Eberron campaign. When I awoke from the beat-down three days later, I realized the class is a little broken and should only be used by the most experienced players and only in groups where there aren't enough players to get all the 'bases' (e.g. Cleric, Fighter, Mage, Thief) covered.
I've got to read that class, from which sourcebook is it? |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 15:34:49
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| Dungeonscape, don't ask why a player would be reading this resource. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 16:34:08
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The basics of the class are that Factotums are the ultimate dungeon explorers. They get 'Inspiration Points' with which they can use to cast arcane spells, cast divine spells, use roguish abilities or get better attacks.
It's a starting character class that is the best opener for the Chameleon PrC. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 16:42:12
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To put it simply they are very confused individuals
So will you be if you have one in your game, even the WotC articles don't clarify the class abilities. It's house rules all the way with these bad boys. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Combat Encounters 3.5
