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radwizard
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 06:57:36
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Long time lurker, not too many post 
I was wondering what what the elven word for "The Order of Phoenix Knights" would be? I could probably come up with a good term for "The Order" but "Phoenix Knight" is giving me fits, lol, any help would be helpful.
Mod Edit: Found this scroll floating in the virtual ether.
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That Which does not kill us makes us stronger |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Feb 2009 08:43:33
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 11:32:11
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Over in England, this comes to mind when I see the words Phoenix Knights.  |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 16:51:06
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According to the Elven Dictionary found on this site, uskeche is fire, and gyrah is bird. I believe a phoenix is sometimes called a firebird, so you could construct something from that.
Alternatively, there is a more Tolkien-influenced dictionary here that uses naur for fire, and dulin for bird.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 03:23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
According to the Elven Dictionary found on this site, uskeche is fire, and gyrah is bird. I believe a phoenix is sometimes called a firebird, so you could construct something from that.
-That would not work. 'Uskeche' is a term that is in the Eastern Lythari dialect, while 'Gyrah' is not; it is in the mainstream Elven language. As such, you cannot combine the two, and get something that "works". |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 04:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
According to the Elven Dictionary found on this site, uskeche is fire, and gyrah is bird. I believe a phoenix is sometimes called a firebird, so you could construct something from that.
-That would not work. 'Uskeche' is a term that is in the Eastern Lythari dialect, while 'Gyrah' is not; it is in the mainstream Elven language. As such, you cannot combine the two, and get something that "works".
Why not? Dialects have overlapping words, so Gyrah could be the word used for fire in all elven dialects. It's sort of like looking at people who speak a British dialect of English versus people who speak an American dialect: the vast majority of words are shared, but there are a few words that are unique to the particular dialect. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 04:48:43
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Why not? Dialects have overlapping words, so Gyrah could be the word used for fire in all elven dialects. It's sort of like looking at people who speak a British dialect of English versus people who speak an American dialect: the vast majority of words are shared, but there are a few words that are unique to the particular dialect.
-'Uskeche' is used only by the Eastern Lythari. 'Gyrah' is not, and is a "proper Elven" word. The language that the Eastern Lythari speak bears no resemblance to Elven. I included it in my dictionary because the Eastern Lythari are Elves, and what they are speaking is a language used by Elves. I made specific denotations as to what words, terms, and phrases were used by the Eastern Lythari (just as I made specific denotation of names used by the al=Qaheran Elves, as opposed to "mainstream" Elven society) because they are not necessarily computable with the other words and phrases I compiled. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 05 Feb 2009 04:49:05 |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 06:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-'Uskeche' is used only by the Eastern Lythari. 'Gyrah' is not, and is a "proper Elven" word. The language that the Eastern Lythari speak bears no resemblance to Elven.
Actually, the two languages have numerous cognates, both being derivative of an ancient proto-Elven language. As luck would have it, those two words just happen to be common to both languages. I wrote a monograph on the subject. I'm still looking for a publisher, but you can take it as authoritative now that it's in print and all.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 14:38:45
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
Actually, the two languages have numerous cognates, both being derivative of an ancient proto-Elven language. As luck would have it, those two words just happen to be common to both languages.
-This is incorrect, as there is no evidence to support the hypothesis. As I said, the language of the Eastern Lythari I considered Elven, because it is the native language spoken by these Lythari, but it does not mean it is related to Elven, Seldruin or Sylvan. Given the words and phrases that it uses that we have seen, it does not seem to be related, either. Drow and Elven are related, and when one studies the word lists of either, many of the similarities jump out at you. With the language of the Eastern Lythari, this is not the case. Given where they are, and how they developed, their language is likely closer related to the language of the Steppe horsemen than 'proper' Elven. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 15:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
This is incorrect, as there is no evidence to support the hypothesis.
Sure there is. I should know, I invented it myself.
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As I said, the language of the Eastern Lythari I considered Elven, because it is the native language spoken by these Lythari, but it does not mean it is related to Elven, Seldruin or Sylvan.
If it's a different language, then it doesn't belong in the same dictionary. You wouldn't put all human words in the same dictionary, would you? If you're going to pedantically insist that the words can't be used together, then you should have treated them as separate languages and put them in different dictionaries.
In the meantime, a DM can use whatever word he wants and invent his own explanation for why it works. Having the official answer is nice, sometimes, but it's not necessary to anyone's happiness.
And just fyi, vetoing someone else's suggestion without offering an alternative one is pretty unhelpful. Since you've done all this work with the Elven dictionary, and on Elven culture, surely you could have taken a few minutes to come up with a plausible sounding suggestion?
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 16:05:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
If it's a different language, then it doesn't belong in the same dictionary. You wouldn't put all human words in the same dictionary, would you? If you're going to pedantically insist that the words can't be used together, then you should have treated them as separate languages and put them in different dictionaries.
-The dictionary is a dictionary of Elven words. The Eastern Lythari are Elves. Thus, their language is an Elven language. It is not Elven, however, hence my denotation as words as being in the language of the Eastern Lythari.
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
In the meantime, a DM can use whatever word he wants and invent his own explanation for why it works. Having the official answer is nice, sometimes, but it's not necessary to anyone's happiness.
-And, he/she is free to do whatever he/she wants. I, personally, couldn't care less about his/her own home game. If he/she wanted to turn all X's into Y's, he/she's free to do so in his/her game. When someone asks a generic question, however, we answer with canon, especially in the Sages of Realmslore section, which is meant for canon-only discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
And just fyi, vetoing someone else's suggestion without offering an alternative one is pretty unhelpful. Since you've done all this work with the Elven dictionary, and on Elven culture, surely you could have taken a few minutes to come up with a plausible sounding suggestion?
-Where does it say that, in order to veto a suggestion, one must offer a solution of their own? I must have missed that part.
-The dictionary is open for anyone to browse through, and there are only a few words that have yet to be included in it's latest update. There are no specific words for many things. As such, if someone is looking for the word for a specific thing, and no such word exists, there is no amount of knowledge that I possess on the subject that is going to matter. If a word doesn't exist, a word doesn't exist. If a combination is made that would be incorrect, as would mixing the language of the Eastern Lythari and mainstream Elven, or mixing the language of the Drow and mainstream Elven, it's incorrect. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 05 Feb 2009 16:15:35 |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 17:22:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
The dictionary is a dictionary of Elven words. The Eastern Lythari are Elves. Thus, their language is an Elven language. It is not Elven, however, hence my denotation as words as being in the language of the Eastern Lythari.
It's elven but it's not Elven. I got that, but that still makes them two different languages, and including them in the same dictionary obscures the distinction that you are trying to make. If the distinction is that important, you would have done better to keep them separate the same way that the Drow dictionary is kept separate.
quote:
-And, he/she is free to do whatever he/she wants. I, personally, couldn't care less about his/her own home game. If he/she wanted to turn all X's into Y's, he/she's free to do so in his/her game. When someone asks a generic question, however, we answer with canon, especially in the Sages of Realmslore section, which is meant for canon-only discussion.
You didn't simply say that my answer was non-canon, you said it didn't work. You do realize that there's a difference, right?
quote:
-Where does it say that, in order to veto a suggestion, one must offer a solution of their own? I must have missed that part.
What you missed is that the OP was looking for help. The impression you gave was of someone who is more interested in showing off his mastery of canonical lore and big-footing the less informed than helping out a person looking for information.
quote:
The dictionary is open for anyone to browse through, and there are only a few words that have yet to be included in it's latest update. There are no specific words for many things. As such, if someone is looking for the word for a specific thing, and no such word exists, there is no amount of knowledge that I possess on the subject that is going to matter.
Saying that no canonical word exists and would have to be made up is more helpful than just nixing someone else's suggestion. But do you really think that your greater knowledge doesn't give you any insight on creating new words that would fit with canon?
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 18:25:34
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
It's elven but it's not Elven. I got that, but that still makes them two different languages, and including them in the same dictionary obscures the distinction that you are trying to make. If the distinction is that important, you would have done better to keep them separate the same way that the Drow dictionary is kept separate.
-The language of the Eastern Lythari is Elven, in that it is the language spoken by the Eastern Lythari, who are Elves. It has no name; thus, it is Elven. Words and phrases are specifically detonated as being in the dialect of the Eastern Lythari, just like words and phrases of the al-Qaheran Elves- who also have no connections to mainstream Elvendom, other than them being Elves- are specifically detonated as being in the dialect of the al-Qaheran Elves. Drow already has a large and considerable vocabulary, with multiple sources acting as word resources. To include Drow in the Elven Dictionary, while a language that is spoken by Elves, would make it ungainly, for me, thus my never compiling the words into it.
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
You didn't simply say that my answer was non-canon, you said it didn't work. You do realize that there's a difference, right?
-From a canon point of view, no, it doesn't work. As I said, a person can do X, Y and Z in their own game, and that's up to them. If they are going to be asking questions, and I am going to be answering them, I (and others) are going to be answering them from a canon point of view. From a non-canon point of view, anything is doable and possible, and anything goes.
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
What you missed is that the OP was looking for help. The impression you gave was of someone who is more interested in showing off his mastery of canonical lore and big-footing the less informed than helping out a person looking for information.
-The original poster is indeed looking for help. He/she is looking for a way to translate 'Phoenix Knight' into Forgotten Realms Elven. The suggestion that was made was incorrect, as explained above. As such, I explained why it is incorrect, and later added that, being as the language is far from total and complete, there are no words for 'Phoenix'.
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
Saying that no canonical word exists and would have to be made up is more helpful than just nixing someone else's suggestion. But do you really think that your greater knowledge doesn't give you any insight on creating new words that would fit with canon?
-No, no it does not. The dictionary is canon. Anything I decide to make up on my own is not. Thus, anything that I make up is not an actual Faerūnian Elven term. Rather, it's one of the thousands of made-up Elven words that can be found all over the internet, that are not canon Faerūnian Elven. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 19:13:22
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| The debate about whether to consider the two compatible or not doesn't really matter to me, but I would like to say that calling the language spoken by the Eastern Lythari a dialect confused me. From my understanding of language terms, a dialect is a variation on a language. Considering the way Dagnirion is defining what the Lythari speak, that would be a separate language. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 20:52:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
The language of the Eastern Lythari is Elven, in that it is the language spoken by the Eastern Lythari, who are Elves.
You keep repeating that. I got it the first time.
quote:
It has no name; thus, it is Elven.
It is elven (the adjective) but it is not Elven (the proper noun), unless you want to say that there are two languages, both called Elven. If that is the case, then just call it Lythari-Elven for convenience, and give it its own dictionary.
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Words and phrases are specifically detonated as being in the dialect of the Eastern Lythari,
If it's a dialect, then Ranger's point about common words would apply. Your response to that, however, was that the two have nothing in common. Therefore, it cannot be a dialect. A dialect means that it's a branch of the same language, different in some ways but similar in others, and one could expect it to have common words.
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-From a canon point of view, no, it doesn't work.
Read the OP again. It is clear that anything that made creative use of canonical sources would have worked for him.
quote:
From a non-canon point of view, anything is doable and possible, and anything goes.
No, some things fit better than others. Uskreche Gyrah works much better than Oiseau de Feu.
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Rad,
Another possibility: In the dictionary, there is a (non-Lythari) word for 'sun': Ar. You might use it to create a derivative word for fire/flame, or just combine it as is with gyrah to make Argyrah: Sunbird. <--Warning: Non-canonical word. Use at your own risk. 
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Maias227
Acolyte
Denmark
3 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 08:33:46
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I have a minor question also regarding the elven language found in the dictionary.
I stumbled upon "Elegard Aquilar" and it translated it to; "Ancient Elven Battle Cry". My question is do anyone know where it is from or what it actually means?
If you could point me to the novel where it was used it would be much appriciated as well.
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Question about the Elven language
