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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 23:13:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why? What has redemption to do with justice? Someone seeking redemption could be leaving a past of being overly zealous about seeking justice... Or they could be redeeming themselves from being too prideful and not paying enough attention to family... Redemption is about rebirth and new beginnings, and it's not necessarily a consequence of doing anything illegal, immoral, and/or sinful.
Well, the top definition for 'redemption' was "an act of redeeming or the state of being redeemed," so let's jump to 'redeem' and see what it means...
quote:
re#8901;deem#8194; #8194;/r#618;#712;dim/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-deem] Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object) 1. to buy or pay off; clear by payment: to redeem a mortgage.
2. to buy back, as after a tax sale or a mortgage foreclosure.
3. to recover (something pledged or mortgaged) by payment or other satisfaction: to redeem a pawned watch.
4. to exchange (bonds, trading stamps, etc.) for money or goods.
5. to convert (paper money) into specie.
6. to discharge or fulfill (a pledge, promise, etc.).
7. to make up for; make amends for; offset (some fault, shortcoming, etc.): His bravery redeemed his youthful idleness.
8. to obtain the release or restoration of, as from captivity, by paying a ransom.
9. Theology. to deliver from sin and its consequences by means of a sacrifice offered for the sinner.
Since our discussion concerns theology, I think #9 is the pertinent entry, but all of them have to do with payment. Redemption, therefore, has everything to do with justice, because it means payment for previous wrong-doing.
It's true that redeeming oneself can mark a new beginning in life, but the two aren't the same. One could resolve to live more prudently by eating better, exercising, being more patient, etc, and, although carrying through with the resolution would mark a new beginning, it would not require redemption. Redemption is only needed when the person has committed a wrong, whether against god, society, or another individual. The person is redeemed through payment to the one he has wronged.
Historically, justice has had two goals. One is to restore a balance by meting out punishment for wrong-doing. A second is to bring about the redemption of the wrong-doer by having him pay for the wrong he has done. That's why an ex-con might speak of having paid his debt to society. As someone else pointed out, not every criminal, perhaps very few, seek redemption in their punishment. It's not unheard of, though, and it has been a goal of our modern justice system to provide that experience for criminals, so I do think it could fall under Tyr's portfolio.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 23:25:00
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| Definition #7 looks like it could work in the generic sense... #9 seems like religion-specific redemption, sin being defined in any given diety's eyes could only be redeemed in that diety's eyes. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 23:29:59
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why? What has redemption to do with justice? Someone seeking redemption could be leaving a past of being overly zealous about seeking justice... Or they could be redeeming themselves from being too prideful and not paying enough attention to family... Redemption is about rebirth and new beginnings, and it's not necessarily a consequence of doing anything illegal, immoral, and/or sinful.
Well, the top definition for 'redemption' was "an act of redeeming or the state of being redeemed," so let's jump to 'redeem' and see what it means...
quote:
re#8901;deem#8194; #8194;/r#618;#712;dim/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-deem] Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object) 1. to buy or pay off; clear by payment: to redeem a mortgage.
2. to buy back, as after a tax sale or a mortgage foreclosure.
3. to recover (something pledged or mortgaged) by payment or other satisfaction: to redeem a pawned watch.
4. to exchange (bonds, trading stamps, etc.) for money or goods.
5. to convert (paper money) into specie.
6. to discharge or fulfill (a pledge, promise, etc.).
7. to make up for; make amends for; offset (some fault, shortcoming, etc.): His bravery redeemed his youthful idleness.
8. to obtain the release or restoration of, as from captivity, by paying a ransom.
9. Theology. to deliver from sin and its consequences by means of a sacrifice offered for the sinner.
Since our discussion concerns theology, I think #9 is the pertinent entry, but all of them have to do with payment. Redemption, therefore, has everything to do with justice, because it means payment for previous wrong-doing.
It's true that redeeming oneself can mark a new beginning in life, but the two aren't the same. One could resolve to live more prudently by eating better, exercising, being more patient, etc, and, although carrying through with the resolution would mark a new beginning, it would not require redemption. Redemption is only needed when the person has committed a wrong, whether against god, society, or another individual. The person is redeemed through payment to the one he has wronged.
Historically, justice has had two goals. One is to restore a balance by meting out punishment for wrong-doing. A second is to bring about the redemption of the wrong-doer by having him pay for the wrong he has done. That's why an ex-con might speak of having paid his debt to society. As someone else pointed out, not every criminal, perhaps very few, seek redemption in their punishment. It's not unheard of, though, and it has been a goal of our modern justice system to provide that experience for criminals, so I do think it could fall under Tyr's portfolio.
But the definition you quoted also includes making amends for something or offsetting it. It's not at all inconceivable for someone to have to make amends for past actions, and yet have done nothing morally or illegally wrong -- not spending enough time with one's family is a good example. So redemption can and does exist outside of and totally independent of justice.
And unless the redemption comes in the form of sacrificing one's life, then one has a new beginning: by redeeming themselves, they are being reborn as someone who will not repeat the crimes/mistakes of the past. Regardless of whether or not justice is involved, it's a new start for them.
Therefore, redemption should be Lathander's gig. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 01:08:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Therefore, redemption should be Lathander's gig.
Okay. :)
Penitent: I failed in my duty to Bane by allowing the women and children of the village to live. How might I redeem myself, oh priest!
Priest of Lathander: Ummm....
Seriously, I think I understand what you're getting at, but I question whether that is redemption in the strict sense. You seem to be talking about the kind of faults that occur between people, and require a minor act of atonement to bring about their reconciliation. That doesn't seem to me like the sort of transformational experience that would require the intervention of a god, though. Nor does it necessarily imply a new beginning. The fault might have been a one-time action not indicative of the person's usual behavior, so rather than a new beginning it's a return to the status quo. Nonetheless, I can see why Lathander might be considered a good fit for, what I would call, reconciliation.
And after thinking about it some more, I agree that there could be a generalized concept of redemption for those wishing to leave behind a life of evil and start again. It would be redemption only in the eyes of good-aligned gods, though, and it could not usurp the right of individual gods to demand redemption from their followers who stray from the true path. It would also imply an agreement between the god of redemption and other good aligned gods regarding what is required for redemption. In other words, the act of redemption itself must be generalized, and not specific to the portfolio of one god. For example, if Lathander had redemption as part of his portfolio, then he could not require penitents to start a new enterprise as part of their atonement. That would not necessarily satisfy Chauntea or Torm or the other good-aligned gods. Preferably, the atonement should be acts that redress the past evils done by the person, and should be in proportion to those evils.
I can see a number of gods serving that function, and I don't have a strong opinion about which one would be best. Lathander, Tyr, Eilistraee, and Torm are all good suggestions, or, for those who fill like the cosmos isn't overcrowded enough, a brand new god. :)
Now... which evil god would have "redemption-relative-to-the-evil-gods" as part of his portfolio? Or should we call that seduction? ;)
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 01:18:30
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Hey, in the DnD settings, certain things are objective. Morality, ethics, what-have-you.
Why does redemption have to be relative? Some sins are muddy, particularly in real world theology, but not so in the Realms. If the Banite went to the Lathander priest and asked for redemption, it would be a continuation of the mercy he showed the villagers, not despite it.
Good is good, evil is evil, and redemption is redemption.
Relativity can bite me.
All the best |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 03:37:57
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quote:
Originally posted by GoCeraf
Hey, in the DnD settings, certain things are objective. Morality, ethics, what-have-you.
I believe that about the real world as well, but I don't believe that the majority of evil done in either world is done simply for the sake of being evil. Objectively, Bane is evil, but does he see himself as evil, or does he have a different conception of what is good? His conception is wrong, of course, but I'm not going to present him as an adolescent geek who thinks evilness is kewl. I don't wish to muddy the waters as far as what is right and wrong, but I dislike the sort of cartoonish image of evil implied by having gods who recognize themselves as evil and revel in it.
quote:
If the Banite went to the Lathander priest and asked for redemption, it would be a continuation of the mercy he showed the villagers, not despite it.
In my example, the Banite recognized his action as a sin against Bane. It was, to him, a moment of weakness that might have a detrimental effect on the future of the Banite church. My point was that it would be odd for him to seek redemption from Lathander as the god of redemption. He would seek his redemption from Bane.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 04:35:54
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But here, there's a difference between forgiveness and redemption. I think what he'd be looking for from Bane would be amends.
As far as Bane enjoying being evil... that's one of his domains. And his portfolio includes hatred, tyranny, fear... that's pretty evil to me. Not to mention, there's nothing human about being a god. There's no mortal moral compass slowing Bane down. He's well aware, objectively, of what he's doing. There's no mortality muddying his water, so to speak.
Redemption is, objectively, a morally good dealie. Lathander having dominion over redemption would be an absolute ideal. Someone seeking redemption would have to mean it, not just as a way to get back in a given deity's good graces.
The Banite seeking amends from Bane wouldn't be seeking redemption. He'd be looking not to get himself owned by other Banites.
Edit: As an addendum, a general god of redemption wouldn't necessary be a penance thing. It's hard to separate it in the Realms, what with the focus on faith, but redemption doesn't necessarily have to be for the sanctity of the afterlife. Not all crimes are committed against the gods. Bane's portfolio includes hatred, but that doesn't mean that hatred is end-all, be-all, god-given. It's a very human thing, and it being in his portfolio doesn't mean that anyone who feels hatred is doing Bane any favors.
There's a point somewhere... not sure if I made it, though
All the best |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
Edited by - GoCeraf on 14 Jan 2009 04:39:00 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 06:14:41
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Dalor Darden
The Darkflame, the Black Arch-Mage, the Fiend Seer, the Anti-Mage, the Last One, Lord of Favors
Greater Deity
Symbol: A black flame (sometimes with two red eyes)
Home Plane: Plane of Shadow (portals to the Abyss, Nine Hells, and other Infernal Realms)
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Portfolio: Alien things, caverns, dark, dark favors, dungeons, evil, fiendish dealings, forgetfulness, loss, night, power, secrets, the Underdark, & vice
Worshipers: Shadow adepts, shades, wizards, cultists, fiendish creatures, anarchists, assassins, avengers, monks (Dark Moon), nihilists, rogues, shadow dancers, fiendish creatures and aberrations
Cleric Alignments: LE, NE, CE
Domains: Darkness, Evil, Corruption, Knowledge, Magic
Favored Weapon: “Darkshaft” (Quarterstaff)
Dalor is, simply put, the Lord and Master of Evil. His is the power of dark magic and evil incarnate. His tools are fiendish servants and alien creatures from otherworldly realities. His strength is hidden within fiend cults, evil wizard cabals, the morally corrupt and lone seekers of dark magic for the sake of power. He is the epitome of the power hungry wizard, for he hoards magical knowledge to himself with ever a hungry eye on what can next be gained while eliminating those that have what he does not. He promotes among worshipers this same ideology so that what they bring to the afterlife will be his alone. Dalor most commonly takes the form of an ebon-skinned human about seven feet tall and of athletic build with lustrous stark white long hair that frames a finely chiseled face in which are a pair of glowing red eyes. His only clothing consists of finely crafted unadorned robes of black, a matching hooded cloak and breeches, and black leather knee-high boots. Always in his grasp is a slender staff of pitch black alien alloy that stands exactly as tall as the Black Arch-Mage. He has many other guises, ranging from an elderly sage to a young sycophant.
The Church of Dalor has no central structure at all, as each temple maintains its own base of power separate from (but sometimes in competition against) other temples. Only the rare Solar Eclipse and nights of the New Moon will bring the “Conclave of Dark Seers” together to receive instruction from a servant or (rarely) an avatar of Dalor.
Clerics of Dalor pray for their spells at dusk or midnight; depending on the preference of the individual cleric. Holy days for the entire church are Solar Eclipses, nights of a New Moon (called “Night of the Master’s Eye”), and the Day of Dark Dawning which is a celebration of Dalor taking the power of Shar from her inept hands and destroying her. On nights of a New Moon, clergy often mount attacks against enemies or unsuspecting people who have magic the cleric desires. The individual temples sometimes sponsor magical duels within their deepest chambers and reward the winner with spell scrolls, wands, or other rare items; then raid the holdings of the now dead wizard. Because the church has fewer lay worshipers than other churches dedicated to a Greater Deity, Dalor has actually instructed clerics to attempt to gain converts by use of addictive drugs and mind influencing magic. Many temples have opened brothels and drug parlors to pursue this avenue, and have found that those unworthy of Dalor’s favor still make excellent sacrifices to cement deals with the various fiends that are summoned to do the church’s bidding. To ensure secrecy, new “converts” are promised what it is they most desire (whether it be wealth, power, sex, drugs, etc.) and are sent to the actual temple to undergo rituals to determine which will actually become clerics and which will become slaves or sacrifices.
History/Relationships: The history of Dalor is for the most part a total unknown factor. Short of what other gods and a very few mortals may know; little of anything is known of this god. What is known is: he was born of a race of exceptionally powerful wizards from an alternate prime material plane. This race had once ruled thousands of planets in a star spanning empire; but by the time Dalor was born, all that remained of the empire after a great war was a small continental empire on a single world which was not their native home. For unknown reasons Dalor was banished from this world in his youth shortly before the last remnants of his people were destroyed by godly forces in a great magical cataclysm. This occurred roughly 1,500 years ago; about the same time that Tyr first came to Toril. The young, but greatly powerful, wizard is said to have traveled to many worlds, planes, and even through time itself; eventually gaining such great power that he achieved self apotheosis. Such was the nature of the procedure, however, that he nearly lost himself to forces bent upon the destruction of the very Multiverse itself. Needing to shed this unwanted influence from himself, he found the means upon the world of Toril.
Creating a powerful Avatar named Barak; Dalor vested in it a great deal of his own power (supposedly even giving aspects of his portfolio to it and making it a Demi-god itself), cast it into the lands north of the Moonsea, and then cut it off completely. Thus came to the Pantheon of Faerun the Demi-god of Power, Conquest, Tyranny, and War named Barak shortly before the Time of Troubles. Not without contingency plans for disposal of his alter-ego, Dalor saw to the destruction of the Demi-god by way of manipulation of several mortals and gods during the Time of Troubles.
Now free of the outside influences which brought about his ascension to godhood (and having regained his temporarily lost power as well as having endeared himself to several mortals and a god suspected to have been Bane; who many now blame Dalor for helping to return to Faerun) Dalor set about attaining the power he truly desired. Once again manipulating mortals and gods alike, the Demi-god Dalor (claiming the portfolio of the Deity of Power, Fiendish Dealings, and Alien Things) began a strategy to ensure his ascent to his current station. In an as yet to be understood plan, he began to awaken the long dead deity Amaunator the Sun God within the lands of Chessenta by granting spells to those who would accept the teachings of this god as taught (truthfully despite his nature) by Dalor himself who posed as the Oracle of Amaunator. Further plots, some involving the power of the now awakened Sun God, involved bringing the City of Shade back from the Plane of Shadow, opening of numerous new Shadow Magic Portals and Gates throughout Faerun, the sound defeat and enslavement of Tiamat’s Avatar in a spectacular battle outside the City of Akanax, breaking Shar’s grasp on the Shadow Weave by destruction of a Shadow Weave artifact and mass desertion of her worship by the City of Shade to the worship of Dalor, and finally his ascent to his current power which resulted from unknown means of a ritual involving the destruction of the Shadow Weave artifact and the avatar of Tiamat he had chained by his magic; the end result being the death of Shar, Mystra claiming all magic, and Dalor becoming a powerful God in his own right.
Dalor has become, in short order, one of the most powerful gods in Faerun; but it has brought him many enemies. Many speculate that his aiding Amaunator was only done to maintain a balance within the pantheon as mandated by Ao; and the Sun God now calls Dalor an enemy because of this manipulation and their diametrically opposed portfolios. The deities Cyric, Talos, and Bane resent his power; and now call him enemy alongside such gods as Selune, Lathander, Tiamat, Mystra, Kelemvor, and others; though Mystra, now changed by taking the mantle of the Shadow Weave, is often neutral concerning Dalor and his advances of obviously deceitful love he professes. Counted among his allies (if they can be trusted) would be the deities Beshaba, Gargauth (as a fiendish intermediary), Mask, Velsharoon (who has totally gone over to allegiance to Dalor), his son Zal-Kaeth, grandsons Vhalketh and Zaelnan, and various fiendish powers such as Baphomet, Grazzt, Orcus, Pazrael, and even (if rumors can be believed) Asmodeus; who is said to have given his favored daughter Glasya to Dalor in marriage to cement some pact.
Dogma: In the scheme of the gods themselves, the purpose of life is gaining power. The gods work ceaselessly against each other to gain more followers who give them power; why should mortals be any different? Seek out magic which will give you power and use those who can do your bidding to increase your strength; whether they be a easily manipulated paramour or a dangerous fiend. Evil is a power none can deny, for the infinite legions of the Abyss and the Nine Hells are an inexhaustible source of power to be used against enemies. Seek out knowledge of any kind that can only be found where others fear to tread. Advocate the use of dark magic by showing its power against the weak and frayed powers of light that slowly crumble as light attempts to treat all equally and thus disperses its own power. Destroy the enemies of the Darkflame who would stand against his power, and use their magic to further his will. Do not oppose the power of the Black Arch-Mage, for no force is his equal; he has at his disposal the legions of the infernal realms and the unfettered might of darkness to command. In the end, Dalor will control all and only those of use to him will be given some measure of power to use for his glory.
Clergy and Temples: Dalor’s clerics are almost all power hungry; and use whatever means at their disposal to gain power and keep it. They congregate in lands where their evil natures can actually aid them in their pursuits; while elsewhere they are most often lone individuals who either live in reclusive towers in pursuit of dark researches or travel about in search of lost magic. They sometimes sponsor dark academies where the only price for attending is not being the last to graduate from your class; for if you are, your soul is forfeit to the very fiendish instructors who you once learned magic from. A rare cleric will actually take on the role of sage and seer, willing to aid others with knowledge for payment in evil magical items or other things best left unsaid. The vilest of his clergy usually become so wrapped in their dealings with fiendish and alien creatures that they often become diabolical and/or alien themselves. Such men and women are friend to none and will even destroy other followers of Dalor in their mad schemes for more power. All temples to Dalor seek out Paladins that can be corrupted into Blackguards who further their master’s power; and even raise from adolescence young boys and girls to serve as unholy warriors who train as fighter/clerics or fighter/Divine Champions.
Temples to Dalor vary wildly in their layout, location, and strength. Most are hidden affairs known only to the actual clerics and other worshipers who live there. Some few are little more than shrines where a “kindly” sage in good cities retreats to perform evil rites when the unlucky fall within their grasp. Dalor is not a deity of absolute darkness per se; and his temples are not the typical brooding dungeons those of good disposition would expect them to be. He expects his followers to display the might of their patron god in the temples; and so displays of finely crafted halls, extensive libraries, laboratories, rich tapestries, golden objects of art, and well equipped guards will certainly be found within temples who can afford such. Less prominent temples will still be found within well maintained structures and have at least a fine altar with well guarded adjoining rooms.
Clerics of Dalor dress uniformly in darker colors, with black, dark gray, midnight blue, or deepest purple nearly always prominent. Clerics strive to obtain the finest armor and weapons they can gain; some even going so far as to learn the skills of armor-smith or weapon-smith. Clerics are not required to display the holy symbol of their deity; but it will always be upon their person.
The most prominent temple of Dalor, known to outsiders, stands near the Thayan city of Eltabbar. The structure is a massive tower a hundred feet in diameter and three hundred feet tall; with a writhing mass of black fire stretching into the sky another one hundred or so feet. A ring of thirteen smaller towers, each thirty feet in diameter and ninety feet tall, surround the central structure and are joined by an imposing fortified wall bristling with minarets and the spears of patrolling guards. The courtyard between the central structure and the wall is a garden paradise filled with all manner of welcoming pleasures to tempt outsiders. Access is granted freely every day to any who wish to convert to the worship of Dalor; but after entry, none are ever allowed to leave without permission. The mistress of this glorious edifice is said to be none other than Dalor’s own wife Glasya; but none can confirm having ever seen her or even heard her name spoken within the halls. Few wish to speak her name at any rate, for she is the daughter of Asmodeus himself, Arch-fiend of the Nine Hells.
An order of powerful Blackguards and Divine Champions (guided somewhat by Clerics and Wizards) resides in the land of Chessenta; rulers of the equally powerful City-State of Akanax. The city was where Dalor began the resurrection of the god Amaunator; but the citizens of that city have been converted to the worship of their former “Oracle” after he openly proclaimed himself outside the city of Cimbar which the legions of Akanax were besieging. The Scions of the Dark Lord are a highly motivated and organized order with no qualms about destroying whole cities which refuse their power. They are the driving force behind an effort to re-unite Chessenta; and have a solid chance of success. Their efforts have recently been opposed by the concentrated efforts of Tiamat’s own clergy and adventurers who are rumored to actually be the mortals who unwittingly helped Dalor gain his power.
The true heart of Dalor’s faithful exists in the nation of Dambrath. Once a land ruled by only barbaric half-drow clerics of Loviatar; Dalor has stripped the people of this land away into his own church completely. The cities have each been given in alliance with some fiend or another by the Black Arch-Mage; and each fiend is given worship here alongside the Darkflame; Lord of Fiends. Many believe Dalor is attempting to found his own Pantheon of Deities in the south. Within Dambrath are temples devoted to the Dark Gods: Dalor, Zal-Kaeth, Glasya, Vhalketh, and Zaelnan; all related to Dalor. Despite the nations obviously evil bent, it is heavily involved with negotiations in several neighboring lands for trade and peaceful existence. To the abject horror of many, a new faction of Shadow Adepts within Halruaa are trying to violently force unification with their Dark Lord’s growing empire. Open battle has yet to occur within Halruaa; but most suspect civil war is close. If such a war happens within Halruaa, many say the dark legions of Dambrath would happily invade, as they have done before, to create a “Dark Empire” in the south despite their overtures of peace and trade.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 16:58:38
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Too... many... titles/portfolios/worshipers.
And you've got "fiendish creatures" twice.
Still, pretty cool. |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 03:22:50
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| I've been toying with the idea of a god that has both death and life as portfolios. It would be kind of interesting to have a single deity that oversees the birth of creatures (maybe of a certain species) but also protects and guides them to the afterlife. The deity would probably be a hardened being with somewhat of an alien mentality, not necessarily evil, but difficult to fathom and judge in comparison to the mentalities of mortals. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 15:06:40
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quote:
Originally posted by GoCeraf
As far as Bane enjoying being evil... that's one of his domains. And his portfolio includes hatred, tyranny, fear... that's pretty evil to me. Not to mention, there's nothing human about being a god. There's no mortal moral compass slowing Bane down. He's well aware, objectively, of what he's doing. There's no mortality muddying his water, so to speak.
Redemption is, objectively, a morally good dealie. Lathander having dominion over redemption would be an absolute ideal. Someone seeking redemption would have to mean it, not just as a way to get back in a given deity's good graces.
I disagree with both paragraphs. Firstly, gods are not omniscient. There certainly is very much human about being a god; Bane was human himself! While I grudgingly accept the universality of good and evil in the game multiverse, it's not a necessary consequence that mortals or gods know this universality in its pure form. Indeed, I say it's impossible, because there are several gods with different views of right and wrong, gods who disagree. If they were omniscient and knew the be-all-end-all of good and evil, they would all be undeniably good and identical in their goodness. The nature of good is to be desireable over evil, the ultimate goal. That applies to both real life and the game. If gods truly understood the truest nature of universal good, they'd never be evil. While Bane might not believe what he does is "good" per se, he certainly has not grasped the truth behind good and evil; if he had, he'd know the error of his ways. The same can be said about any deity, really: they don't embody pure, independent ideals, but only work as dim reflections thereof. If there was a portfolio of something ultimately, universally good governed by a deity, the whole point of conflict is moot: you know who's wrong and who's right, and where's the fun in that?
Secondly, you're not quite in keeping with the definition of redemption. It was quoted earlier in this topic. There's nothing objective about redemption, because it's always in relation to a shortcoming. It's often related to sin, so you can't say it's a moral term at all: sin is not a concept of morality, but one of religion. Sin isn't evil or good by definition, only possibly by extension. Sin, by definition, is something that is against God's will, or in a Realmsian context, your patron god's will.
So, I agree ErskineF. I don't see Redemption, in itself, as a viable portfolio. You could use another word with more mundane connotations to describe the type of reconsideration that might be governed by a neutral deity.
On a more on-topic note: I was discussing the nature and birth of portfolios with a friend last night, and the theoretical possibility of a dandruff portfolio came up. As I thought about it, I realized no deity really has that included in a larger portfolio. Well, Sune's certainly got the social implications covered, as my friend put it, but I can't think of a deity that's really responsible for human (or demihuman/monster/whatever) health, body, bodily functions, the mortal coil etc. Ilmater may have the suffering bit covered, but there's no god of biology/anatomy/the human race, is there? I suppose in the case of demihumans, you could attribute this role to the patron of a given subrace (Corellon as the creator of sun elves etc.) but it's never been promoted.
Then again, you could say this portfolio is split between many deities: Tempus favours strength and the muscles, Ilmater's in charge of physical suffering and all sorts of troubles, Oghma looks out for a healthy mind, Chauntea's responsible for what you eat, Sune's the mistress of physical beautfy and so on. The body, the self, is perhaps the most central part of a human so it seems mighty odd there is no deity whose portfolio is specifically physical and mental well-being or, more specifically, health. It's such a major deal that it should by all rights be the primary concern of a deity, not some afterthought given to a deity with other big responsibilities. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 15:49:05
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There's a lot of portfolios out there that are ungrabbed by anyone... In the pre-Sellplague Realms, there's no god of the sun. A god of the morning, but not a diety for any time between say 10 am and sundown.
Redemption isn't covered by anyone (I think it is a viable portfolio, BTW).
Mischief and humor aren't covered by anyone.
Boredom, ennui, and lethargy aren't covered by anyone.
As Ilsensine commented, there's no god "with dominion over the tableware and ale mugs". Extrapolating a bit further, there's no god with dominion over ale or any other alcoholic drink.
And so on... |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Jan 2009 15:49:39 |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 17:57:34
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Doesn't that strike to you as odd, though? Assuming unclaimed portfolios are free for the taking, as long as you tend to them well, why wouldn't a lesser deity want to grab humour and so increase his/her divine status? I can understand why there's no deity of boredom or lethargy, as a deity of those portfolios is not something conscious beings are likely to worship or appease, but you'd think that there would be at least demigods/saints for all kinds of trades (alebrewing, pottery etc.) working for greater deities who control the category these smaller things are situated in. (Such as Chauntea as the deity of farming, therefore the deity of ale and other alcoholic drinks. So I'd say there is, after all, a deity with dominion over them.) Unless, of course, we assume that deities of other pantheons will contest you for a portfolio they hold, even if it's unclaimed in your portfolio.
My theory is that any portfolio becomes possible once it's concieved of in the world. Before civilization came to be, a god like Deneir couldn't have existed. Tyranny only exists if there is a society in which tyranny can reign. In hunter-gatherer cultures, there's no need for Waukeen and she wouldn't exist if there was no trade. Similarily, there's simply not enough of a devotion or interest towards tableware on Faerûn to grant divine power to anyone specifically focusing on that. If there was a nation of tableware, however, I am sure a deity of tablewere would soon emerge, whether by extension of an existing deity's existing portfolio, or as something new. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 15 Jan 2009 17:59:11 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 18:26:50
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I think part of it is because of power... Not only would it take some power to take and hold a portfolio, but then that portfolio would have to provide power. Mischief and humor aren't something that most people pay any attention to, so the potential for power there is rather small.
Similarly, just about everyone is going to use tableware and ale mugs, but who is going to pay any attention to these things? People sitting down to eat may think to thank the appropriate deity for the food itself, but who's going to think about thanking a deity for the plate?
And it goes further, too -- for that food to hit their plate, there has to be farming, and in cities, transport, selling, protection for the cooks and merchants... The food had to be transported to the city. The city wouldn't be there without civilization. The city wouldn't continue to exist without armed forces. The food couldn't be sold without commerce, and commerce needs people to enact laws and enforce them... And then someone had to prepare and serve that food. Yet the only deity thanked is the one whose portfolio directly affects the production of the unprepared, untransported foodstuff.
So when it comes to worship, people think of the deity directly involved, and they only think of them when it's something important. Food is important. What it's eaten off of is not. For most people, jokes aren't important -- enjoyable, certainly, but not important. Time affects all things, but no one regards time itself as something important. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 19:06:20
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I agree with you, pretty much with all you've said. A portfolio gains signifigance from how important it is to mortals, how often and with how much zeal they think about it and how high they value it. I'm not so sure about your estimation on the importance/power of portfolios, though: Erevan does just fine with mischief, no? The power may be small, but no less so than portfolios like "talking beasts", "interpreting woodland signs", "felines", "divination", "woodland glades" or other demipower portfolios. Someone of relatively low power, like Lliira, would surely make good use of humour.
Time, on the other hand, is one of the building blocks of the multiverse. No one thought light and darkness were important either, or magic and earth, but Selûne, Shar, Mystryl and Chauntea all supposedly existed independent of mortals. Similarly, I can't see the four elemental lords' existance dependant on whether or not people revere, appease or think about the fire, earth, water and air. They just are, and time also is. One would figure a deity of time would be pretty damn secure in his position, if not extremely powerful. The prevalence of time isn't dependant on mortal whims, unlike Tyranny, Justice or Suffering. And I'm pretty sure time is given more thought and contempation to than, say, portals which is an existing portfolio.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this. It's not as if I want new deities for all these portfolios, I just find it curious. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 20:13:10
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
I agree with you, pretty much with all you've said. A portfolio gains signifigance from how important it is to mortals, how often and with how much zeal they think about it and how high they value it. I'm not so sure about your estimation on the importance/power of portfolios, though: Erevan does just fine with mischief, no? The power may be small, but no less so than portfolios like "talking beasts", "interpreting woodland signs", "felines", "divination", "woodland glades" or other demipower portfolios. Someone of relatively low power, like Lliira, would surely make good use of humour.
Ah, but now you're getting into cultural stuff. I'm generally referring to the Faerûnian pantheon. No one in that pantheon formally covers mischief, because none of the human cultures in that sphere of influence place any importance on mischief. The elven culture, obviously, takes mischief far more seriously.
Ditto with some of the other stuff you've mentioned... Most of Lurue's worshippers are talking beasts, so she gains power from them. Interpreting woodland signs is very important for rangers, druids, and anyone else who spends much time in the woods -- so there's power to be had, there. Some cultures have revered cats -- particularly the Mulhorandi -- so felines would be important in that society. And when divination is a very real and undeniable practice, of course it's going to be important to some people.
quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
Time, on the other hand, is one of the building blocks of the multiverse. No one thought light and darkness were important either, or magic and earth, but Selûne, Shar, Mystryl and Chauntea all supposedly existed independent of mortals. Similarly, I can't see the four elemental lords' existance dependant on whether or not people revere, appease or think about the fire, earth, water and air. They just are, and time also is. One would figure a deity of time would be pretty damn secure in his position, if not extremely powerful. The prevalence of time isn't dependant on mortal whims, unlike Tyranny, Justice or Suffering. And I'm pretty sure time is given more thought and contempation to than, say, portals which is an existing portfolio.
And the elemental deities spend more time paying attention to their elemental followers -- for whom those elements are the very stuff of life -- than they do to their mortal worshippers. Sure, they do pay attention to the mortal world, but not as much as they pay to their home ground. And fire and water both have been considered very important to some cultures. So does the earth, which provides most of what's necessary to life, and the air that is breathed, but fire and water (particularly fire) often get a special amount of reverence, more than the other elements.
People use and revere magic. People revere light, and others revere darkness. That's what makes those things important.
Time, on the other hand, just is. People don't think about time itself. They may think about its passage, but time itself is just too abstract a concept for most people to worship. The elves, with their greater allotment of it, do think about it -- but they're just about the only ones. So they have a deity to cover it, but no one else does, because no one else needs one.
quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
I'm not sure where I'm going with this. It's not as if I want new deities for all these portfolios, I just find it curious.
It's all about what is important to the particular cultures that worship the deities. The pantheon revered by a culture can tell you a lot about that culture, simply by seeing what deities are the most important, and which ones are barely acknowledged. I've always thought it interesting that the most famous real-world deity of mischief is Loki, and that he's basically the bad guy of Norse mythology. It's also not uncommon in real-world mythology (and in fantasy fiction) for the deity of death and the deity of luck to be female. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 20:15:43
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I had a god that was nearly as weird as 'Timothy' - he was created accidently when my players wandered off the egde of the campaign map, and I had no idea what to describe, so I describe some guy (myself, really) that was busilly 'drawing' in buildings and terrain outside of town (in the direction they were NOT supposed to go in).
They asked him who he was, and he said he was 'the Main Man'... and hence a god named "The MAN" became part of my setting - and for some bizarre reason I can't remember, he wound-up having the personality of Spicoli from Fast Times at Ridgemont High. That was Sean Penn's character, for those of you unfamiliar with the movie, and he was a California-mellow burner-type.
Probably the strangest god I ever had - the players loved him so much I had to keep him - he made several appearances throughout the campaign.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
I does help very much indeed. Reading that, I could fall in love with her instantly.  Some goddess that wouldn't go amiss within Realmspace.
Thanks a lot!
And I'd also like to thank you and Rinon for bringing her up - you reminded me of her, and she's a natural fit into the Eastern Pantheon I'm putting together. 
Anyone know of any canon GH deities that made it into the Realms?
I know we have all the non-human ones, and some Demonic types, like Orcus and Tiamet (Tiamet was a Demon Lord, I believe, in early GH), but I was wondering if there were any human deities?
I've always thought of Silvanus as the Realmsian incarnation of Obad-Hai, but I also know there's no canon reason to beieve the two are one and the same.
I suppose if they were still to do GH in 4e, We'd see Bane make it over to GH, because he's core now. There's a few from there I wouldn't mind seeing make the transition - I think Wee Jas would make a cool replacement for Mystra.
Edit: I'm just looking over a list of GH gods, and I was wondering about the Elemental lords (once gods, now primordials I suppose, in 4e). They really should be the same in both settings, but I'm not seeing it anywhere.* GH only has the Elder Elemental Evils - who are the same in both settings. Some gods have elements as part of their portfolios, but it isn't their only 'thing', and their is an "Elder Elemental God" as well.
*Found it while glancing over it again just now - the same Elemental gods are listed for GH, and I also came across Asmodeus - since he is a Full-blown god in 4e, GH and FR now do indeed have at least one 'Human' god common to both settings. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jan 2009 00:33:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 21:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've always thought of Silvanus as the Realmsian incarnation of Obad-Hai, but I also no there's no canon reason to beieve the two are one and the same.
Silvanus was a Roman deity, though the old DDG lists him as Celtic. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 23:41:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's a lot of portfolios out there that are ungrabbed by anyone... In the pre-Sellplague Realms, there's no god of the sun. A god of the morning, but not a diety for any time between say 10 am and sundown.
Redemption isn't covered by anyone (I think it is a viable portfolio, BTW).
Mischief and humor aren't covered by anyone.
Boredom, ennui, and lethargy aren't covered by anyone.
As Ilsensine commented, there's no god "with dominion over the tableware and ale mugs". Extrapolating a bit further, there's no god with dominion over ale or any other alcoholic drink.
And so on...
Indeed. There are plenty of portfolios left floating in the divine either, having been unclaimed for quite some time -- like the Time portfolio itself. I'm content to believe that the Time portfolio is currently unclaimed in the human pantheons... it's largely supported by the lore and we've seen nothing to suggest otherwise at this point.
Sometimes, designers don't want to be definitive about this stuff until some future project [they may have something in mind at the time of writing, but cannot specifically detail it right there and then] called for it. In other words, leave room for further development.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 23:43:49
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
Doesn't that strike to you as odd, though? Assuming unclaimed portfolios are free for the taking, as long as you tend to them well, why wouldn't a lesser deity want to grab humour and so increase his/her divine status? I can understand why there's no deity of boredom or lethargy, as a deity of those portfolios is not something conscious beings are likely to worship or appease, but you'd think that there would be at least demigods/saints for all kinds of trades (alebrewing, pottery etc.) working for greater deities who control the category these smaller things are situated in. (Such as Chauntea as the deity of farming, therefore the deity of ale and other alcoholic drinks. So I'd say there is, after all, a deity with dominion over them.) Unless, of course, we assume that deities of other pantheons will contest you for a portfolio they hold, even if it's unclaimed in your portfolio.
My theory is that any portfolio becomes possible once it's concieved of in the world. Before civilization came to be, a god like Deneir couldn't have existed. Tyranny only exists if there is a society in which tyranny can reign. In hunter-gatherer cultures, there's no need for Waukeen and she wouldn't exist if there was no trade. Similarily, there's simply not enough of a devotion or interest towards tableware on Faerûn to grant divine power to anyone specifically focusing on that. If there was a nation of tableware, however, I am sure a deity of tablewere would soon emerge, whether by extension of an existing deity's existing portfolio, or as something new.
This kinda gets into the subject of portfolio balance, which Ed has addressed in the past:-
"When Ed "invented" divine portfolios (which really means: formalized the concept for the D&D game by assigning specific interests to deities and using the word "portfolio" for them), he speculated on the existence (or not) of a Divine Balance.
His take on it (see many GenCon seminars) is that mortals can only imperfectly understand the nature of divinity.
There may be no balance in a pantheon.
There certainly aren't an orderly array of equally-offsetting portfolios (or as this thread expresses it, "portfolios and their opposities") in the Realms pantheon. Given the chaos factor, there probably can never be.
Yes, having deities opposed on a particular matter (Silvanus vs. Chauntea over plants, as posted) makes for great roleplaying opportunities, but trying to extend this "direct opposition exists" to all topics, and all deities, becomes futile.
This is not my opinion, BTW, this is Ed's take on the world and pantheon he created, as expressed at GenCon seminars and agreed with at those seminars by the successive Realms traffic cops of Jeff Grubb and Steven Schend, and by other TSR and later WotC designers such as Steve Winter, David Wise, Frank Mentzer, etc." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 01:52:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And I'd also like to thank you and Rinon for bringing her up - you reminded me of her, and she's a natural fit into the Eastern Pantheon I'm putting together.
You're welcome.
quote:
I was wondering about the Elemental lords (once gods, now primordials I suppose, in 4e). They really should be the same in both settings, but I'm not seeing it anywhere.*
This isn't "canon", but in the BG2: Throne of Bhaal CRPG, you can both summon and fight a few of those Elemental Lords. They are in my Realms setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Jan 2009 01:52:54 |
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 03:00:18
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Been away for a couple of days... engineering design courses and all.
Iron, I don't have an excuse for the definition dealie. I really kind of skimmed into the discussion. Often times, my debates are due to opposing definitions of the topic. I still hold to my definition, but that's not the issue at hand.
And as for the thing about being god and being human... I was actually quoting Kelemvor (from the Avatars trilogy, I believe) wherein he at first attempted to conceive of an afterlife suitable to the life a person has led. Noble warriors gave their lives, villains lived in fear, and it skewed the balance. That's why he ended up being the somewhat cold and aloof deity that he is nowadays.
I mostly agree, however, that those deities who were once mortal cannot completely shred their mortality. At the same time, however, I think that most deities are able to be universal in their dealings with their portfolios and domains. Again, I point to Kelemvor, who's got a pretty emotionless way of handling death. In fact, that manner of handling death is one of few things I despise about the Realms. In a setting where the afterlife is an absolute certainty, you'd have to be an absolute moron NOT to worship a deity. But deity worship, particularly when the deities can be every bit as fallible as the mortals who worship them, strikes bothersome chords in some people.
I can't call myself an atheist, but I wonder if the Realms have anything equivalent. In a sense, maybe, but you can't really live in the Realms and not at least believe in the existence of gods. Absolute refusal to worship any gods would not only be an affront to the vast majority of the population, but also a sure-fire way to see that your soul dissolves in a big wall.
Like I said, bothersome chords. This, however, is WAY off topic and I'm getting close to sparking a theological debate. So I'll leave it at that.
Markustay, Timothy was conceived for two main reasons. For one, it represents a very dangerous, nigh-impossible-to-overcome force that ties the players into the story and gives even the evil characters a reason to work with the rest of the party. Bully-in-the-sky of me, perhaps, but it works. And secondly, it works as a font for creativity. The Masks that sort of give it substance have what I really think are the thirteen big things that make an Ao-level deity. Because of that, and due to the few limits on what it can do, it lets me play around with and completely bend the rules. I sort of described Timothy as a cross of "Q, the Mad Hatter, and Pennywise." I suspect I'll have it pop back in from time to time, to make the players sweat a bit. One of them were crushed by one of Big Ben's clock faces last time, so they know I'm not gonna be gentle with it.
And for the record, I'm fond of "the Man," as you described it.
All the best |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 04:50:08
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Humor as a portfolio is not something that would assimilate well to any Realms deity. The cruelty and mockery in many forms of humor are something actively antithetical to the joy goddess Lliira, very much more the domain of her foe Loviatar. A new god of humor would find himself stretched between those two in day-to-day life, with Oghma/Deneir/Milil already in charge of written and performed comedy.
Similarly, Ed Greenwood's said that Lliira and Mask both fill the role of trickster, depending on how benign or malevolent it is. Between them and Leira/Cyric having deception, how much space is left for a god of mischief? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 07:21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by see
Humor as a portfolio is not something that would assimilate well to any Realms deity. The cruelty and mockery in many forms of humor are something actively antithetical to the joy goddess Lliira, very much more the domain of her foe Loviatar. A new god of humor would find himself stretched between those two in day-to-day life, with Oghma/Deneir/Milil already in charge of written and performed comedy.
Similarly, Ed Greenwood's said that Lliira and Mask both fill the role of trickster, depending on how benign or malevolent it is. Between them and Leira/Cyric having deception, how much space is left for a god of mischief?
See, what I want is a deity that is primarily a Trickster -- not someone who picks up part of the Trickster routine as a smaller portion of their overall portfolio. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 08:05:48
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
In any time period. Who would they be? Their portfolio and nature? Give a description!
1357 DR is the era, with Savras and Velsharoon backported (Velsharoon being a servant of Azuth/Mystra and an ally of Myrkul, not Talos)
Dentharus
The Traveler
Demipower, NG
Portfolio: Conjurers, conjuration, teleporation, portals
Superior: Azuth, Mystra
Allies: Azuth, Mystra, Oghma
Foes: None
Symbol: A man stepping through a portal.
Though the patron of the entire school of conjuration, kindly old Dentharus concentrates on teleportation, portals, and other forms of instant travel from place to place. His clergy tend to be scholarly and obsessed with tracing the network of portals across Faerun, and the deity himself is rumored to know the location and destination of every such portal in the Realms. Users of teleportation and portals will often give him a quick prayer for protection against mishaps.
Jessarai
Lesser Power, NG
Portfolio: Home, hearth, cooking, hospitality.
Superior: None
Allies: Chauntea
Foes: None
Symbol: Flame in a hearth
Jessarai is often overlooked in the counsels of the mighty and adventurous, for she has few temples or clerics, and rarely involves herself in the intrigues of the gods. She is a "household goddess", with the hearth-fire considered her shrine; most homes and inn common-rooms will have a dish marked with her symbol in which a small sacrifice of bread is burned daily. Cooking mishaps and accidents are considered signs of her displeasure, brought on by either a lack of hospitality in the household or a displeasing daily sacrifice (for example, moldy or stale bread when fresh was available).
Loimera
The Enchantress
Demipower, LE
Portfolio: Enchanters, enchantment, mental domination, mind control
Superior: Azuth, Mystra
Allies: Azuth, Bane, Mystra
Foes: Loviatar, Ulimnar, Velsharoon
Symbol: A violet wand
As a mortal, Loimera was a dedicated and devout follower of Bane who gloried in using her spells to enslave others. Among her infamous acts were geasing a married pair of paladins to kill one another; the survivor fell to become a powerful blackguard. Raised to divinity with the support of Bane, Loimera found herself immediately exiled by the God of Hatred. Hunted by Loviatar, who wished to subsume the new demigoddess, Loimera found refuge with Azuth and Mystra. Since then, she has sewn strife and hatred among the demigods of magic, which many suspect was Bane's goal in the first place.
Opleastad
The Spell-Hurler
Demipower, CN
Portfolio: Evocation, battle magic, magical destruction.
Superior: Azuth, Mystra
Allies: Azuth, Mystra, Tempus
Foes: Talos
Symbol: A bolt of lighting ending in a starburst
Favored by those who use their magic in warfare, Opleastad glories in battle and in the (reckless, may say) hurling of spells in combat. For that reason, he is on much better terms with Tempus than with his superiors. However, Azuth and Mystra support him lest he be subverted by Talos, who is ever-jealous of the portfolio of destruction.
Perostal
The Transformer
Demipower, CN
Portfolio: Transmuation, transmuters, shapechanging.
Superior: Azuth, Mystra
Allies: Azuth, Leira, Mystra
Foes: None
Symbol: A stick in the middle of becoming a snake
Perostal is aloof, remote, and usually spending his time shapechanged into something that seems innocuous. His followers, beyond specialists in transmutation, mostly are those who glory in change for change's sake. (Those who are out to reform or destroy follow Lathander or Talos, insteda) Some small number worship him as the god of changing fashion, and pray for insight on future trends or help in setting new ones.
Talikar
Lesser Power, N
Portfolio: Plains, steppes, grasslands, the Tuigan, inhabitants of the Shaar
Superior: Silvanus
Allies: Silvanus, Mielikki, Eldath
Foes: Auril, Malar, Talos, Talona, Zethar
Symbol: A horse
The most revered deity among of horse nomads, Talikar serves Silvanus as the guardian of the grasslands. He is known to clash with Chauntea, finding settled farmers and the changes they make to grasslands objectionable. He is little-known in civilized lands, and when known is thought of as the uncouth god of barbarians.
Ulimnar
The Shield
Demipower, LG
Portfolio: Abjuration, abjurers, magical protection
Superior: Azuth, Mystra
Allies: Azuth, Helm, Mystra
Foes: Loimera, Mask, Talos
Symbol: A shield with a bolt of lightning breaking upon it.
The careful, precise god of abjuration, Ulimnar is often invoked by those relying on magical protection — which means, mostly, mages, adventurers and powerful nobles. All three tend to be influential if small in number, and Ulimnar's clergy do quite well in selling such protections to them. He dislikes Opleastad, but the god of war magic merely considers Ulimnar boring. He finds himself in direct conflict with Loimera, who hates wards against her spells; Mask, who hates wards against theft; and Talos, who hates wards against his destruction. Ulimnar often assists Helm, and the two get along famously.
Vlainur
Lesser Power, CN
Portfolio: Beer, wine, spirits, drunkenness
Superior: None
Allies: Chauntea, Leira, Lliira, Sharess
Foes: None
Symbol: A mug of ale
A favorite of many inhabitants of the Realms, Vlainur is a particular patron of those who make and sell alcoholic drinks. His clergy is small, and his temples generally double as breweries, wineries, or distilleries.
Zethar
Lesser Power, NE
Portfolio: Deserts, sandstorms
Superior: Talos
Allies: Talos
Foes: Chauntea, Eldath, Mielikki, Silvanus, Talikar
Symbol: A cactus
Once a servant of Silvanus, Zethar broke with the gods of nature over a decision to try to reverse the damage which created Anauroch. Now numbered among the Gods of Fury, he has turned especially wicked and cruel, and actively seeks the transformation of more of the surface of Faerun into desert. He mostly receives placatory worship from desert-dwellers, supplemented by occasionally being mentioned in prayers for Talos to end droughts in other lands. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 08:15:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by see
Humor as a portfolio is not something that would assimilate well to any Realms deity. The cruelty and mockery in many forms of humor are something actively antithetical to the joy goddess Lliira, very much more the domain of her foe Loviatar. A new god of humor would find himself stretched between those two in day-to-day life, with Oghma/Deneir/Milil already in charge of written and performed comedy.
Similarly, Ed Greenwood's said that Lliira and Mask both fill the role of trickster, depending on how benign or malevolent it is. Between them and Leira/Cyric having deception, how much space is left for a god of mischief?
See, what I want is a deity that is primarily a Trickster -- not someone who picks up part of the Trickster routine as a smaller portion of their overall portfolio.
Well Garl Glittergold is primarily a Trickster god. Granted a gnome god, but since gnomes are seen as the trickster race since they usually favor such things versus direct conflict. I think the reason why, and this is just me saying with no errata to back me up, but that may be why there is no Faerunian deity for such a thing. I think Garl pretty much is worshipped by people of different races, such as humans, that favor trickery. Might just be that way for simplistic sake.
But to comment on something brought up earlier about their not being a god of something I would say toilets. Not sure if he would be a greater god or a demigod, but all would give him his offering daily (sometimes more) with the occassional night of kneeling to him in prayer for having too much to drink at festivals. But probably not a very happy god regardless. |
Edited by - Ghost King on 16 Jan 2009 13:29:25 |
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sneakypetev
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 09:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A non-malicious Trickster. No deity of the Faerûnian pantheon really covers mischief.
I had the same idea. C/N with Illusion/Humor( new) Domains. Domain spells could be like Feather of Tickling,( like spiritual weapon but weapon is a feather and on a "hit" the target laughs uncontrolably for 1 round), and Whoopie Cushion of Shame,( on failed DC target is at -2 to all actions for duration of spell due to embarrassment). |
"Go for the eyes boo,go for the eyes!"- Minsc |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 21:05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by see
Opleastad
The Spell-Hurler
Demipower, CN
Portfolio: Evocation, battle magic, magical destruction.
Superior: Azuth, Mystra
Allies: Azuth, Mystra, Tempus
Foes: Talos
Symbol: A bolt of lighting ending in a starburst
Favored by those who use their magic in warfare, Opleastad glories in battle and in the (reckless, may say) hurling of spells in combat. For that reason, he is on much better terms with Tempus than with his superiors. However, Azuth and Mystra support him lest he be subverted by Talos, who is ever-jealous of the portfolio of destruction.
I don't know if Tempus would be allied with a mage. From my understanding of things, he thinks of magic and most forms of ranged combat as cowardly. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 02:27:05
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I don't know if Tempus would be allied with a mage. From my understanding of things, he thinks of magic and most forms of ranged combat as cowardly.
The closest thing I could find to that sentiment is a mention in FRA that his specialty priests have a dim view of melee MISSILE weapons. I can't see any negative comments at all about magic in FR0, FRA, F&A, or F&P. I do recall that in Crucible, he complained about Mystra making battle magic difficult.
(Edit: Strikethrough and replace marked above) |
Edited by - see on 18 Jan 2009 02:49:31 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 03:04:53
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| I suppose it's more the general feel I have gotten about him from the way Tempus worshippers are often portrayed. In The Crystal Shard, Wulfgar is initially portrayed as distrustful, even hateful, of "sorcery." There have been a few other characters I have seen portrayed in a similar manner. Maybe it is the hallmark of two-dimensional characters, but most of my experiences of Tempus-worshippers have been as such. |
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If you were to invent a deity for the realms
