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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jul 2009 : 17:11:09
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Oghma 'might' be 'into' burning False tomes, because he is more about knowledge itself (despite his title, "The Binder").
Deneir is more about the physical books, and would probably allow for 'false tomes' to continue to exist, because his clergy follows the addage "There is no such thing as useless lore" (which means even pure fiction has it's uses).
The existance af 'false histories' and other fictionalized texts still have an important purpose - they teach students of lore not to rely on a single source, but to do their own investigations and draw their own conclusions.
Oghma, on the other hand, is probably offended by what he consider 'untruths' written down.
At least, that is how I see the difference between the two very similar gods. Steven Schend touched upon some of that in his Blackstaff novel (there was some problems between the church and Khelben - the biggest perpetrator of 'false tomes' if there ever was one - although the conflict primarilly addressed his "hidden knowledge").
Just my Two Cents. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jul 2009 17:11:51 |
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A Gavel
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2009 : 17:55:46
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Aha! Now you touch upon the subject of my long-ago discussion with Ed. "The love of books" is strong in both Oghma and Deneir (and passed on to their clergy). Oghma would rarely want to advocate the destruction of books that didn't harm readers (i.e. the poisoned book in THE NAME OF THE ROSE, or a book full of Explosive Runes or other nasty "activate by reading" magics WOULD be a candidate for destruction).
Rather, Oghma's clergy would want to revise books to remove mistakes and incorrect perceptions. Censors, if you will, except that they don't want to stifle the opinions and "voice" of the original writer, so that in passages where the writer expands on mistaken assumptions, they would want to bind into the book an editorial commentary pointing out the mistakes, erroneous assumptions, and so on.
This comes from Ed, back in the day. We joked about readers who "don't get" satire because they're too ignorant of the original or the subject being satirized to recognize it; well, priests of Oghma would LABEL satire as such.
So saith Ed, circa 1992 or so.
Corrections? Changes in opinion since? Ed, THO? |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2009 : 17:59:10
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Hmmm. Baleful's mention of TOUR DE LOVECRAFT made me wonder: are such "overview" books (of literary works by others, not "real" topics and persons and objects) popular in the Realms, among the general reading public?
Or are they confined to small circles of "those in the know," sages, monks of Candlekeep, and so on?
Are they primarily "rant" chapbooks, or are some (most?) of them more substantial, longer lasting, and widely regarded?
Inquiring minds, as always, want to know . . .
Thanks!
BB |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2009 : 20:33:57
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Hi again, all.
Blueblade, Ed has just responded to your latest question, which I sent him moments after you posted it; here's his reply:
Hi! What you term "overview literary criticism" has a relatively narrow readership in the Realms; it IS primarily read by sages, Oghmanite and Deneiran clergy, printers and book collectors. The sole exception is colorful ranting, which is sometimes read by a wider audience for the sheer entertainment value of the insults, invective, and sarcasm (which can be adopted by local minstrels, actors, and wits). So in Waterdeep and other large cities, "rant chapbooks" are popular (on all sorts of topics, not just literary crit). In market stalls and city bookshops, secondhand crit chapbooks and slim tomes can often be found (Athkatla, Silverymoon, Neverwinter, Waterdeep, and Selgaunt are known to have particularly good selections on offer, at any time; many wealthy patrons buy books, read them, have hired scribes write out their own copies of the juicy passages they'll want to re-read often, then resell the books to recoup as much as possible of the scribe's fee and the initial purchase price of the book), but peddlers seldom have them unless they've "struck rich" by buying the entire library of a deceased hermit or villager for a song, and are now selling it all off, item by item, as they travel on.
So saith Ed. Who is hard at work writing yet more "official" Realmslore for us all.
love,
THO |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 01:20:02
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Aysen
As to the Scarlet Mummers, they are special militant sect devoted to punishing the Loviatans for daring to murder a high priestess who was Llira's lover during the Time of Troubles. Ed personally makes no mention of the magical chimes in his article, but the item is later mentioned here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070306a) as being used by the Mummers to show the Loviatans that true pain comes from the loss of love, not scourges. Nice flavor text, but like you I'm skeptical as to whether a Loviatan would take time to appreciate the irony...
IMHO, the Scarlet Mummers are prime candidates for being corrupted/converted to Shar or Loviatar or even Bane (he is the god of Hate, isn't he?) etc. Lliira is the goddess of Joy, and while I can see her being angry and maybe doing something in the immediate years following the death of her lover, I can't see her wanting to continue the rampage for very long. She's both Chaotic and Good, and being a deity I'm sure she's wise enough to see the peril her Mummers face if they continue down the bloodthirsty path of hatred.
No, the whole order is illogical and very very out of character for Lliira who, lets face it, still has the soul of her lover with her in her domain - it isn't like she couldn't elevate the High Priestess to some other state than petitioner, or intervene to allow the Priestess to keep her memories. In fact, they are united forever. (But even if she didn't want that, she could also restore the Priestess to life!} Yes, it may well be a tragedy that this particular Priestess had her life struck short, but the life she did live was full of Joy serving her goddess (and she was one of the few mortals who had her own deity as a lover!). Llirans hunting down and subjecting any and all Loviatans to painful deaths for the murder of their Priestess (it's certainly not as if ALL Loviatans are responsible for the death!) seems counter intuitive to Lliira's dogma. Once those directly responsible for the murder had been taken care of, it would be well on time to let go.
quote:
Also, while I hope that none of the goodly faiths of Faerun have as cruelly elaborate methods of execution as their evil counterparts, I suspect that not all would go for quick beheadings/sword-through-the-heart type executions. Hence, I didn't request those for whom "quick and painless" would be most likely, such as the three T's (Tempus, Torm, and Tyr) or Ilmater. Aside from Lathander, the other two faiths tend more toward neutral/chaotic goodly tendencies which might allow for some surprising practices.
Quick and painless deaths are not the sole domain of the Lawful Good alignment. The important part of a person's alignment is the latter half. We are all capable of vindictive cruelty, we can all be overcome by rage - being Lawful offers no immunity to this. So I will fully admit that there might be times when hatred, anger, or fear overcome the better parts of ourselves, and we do something terrible - but Lawful people are just as likely to succumb to these gut reactions as Neutrals or Chaotics. What sets Good apart from Evil is that nearly all of the time Good people will fight against those gut reactions and try to embrace empathy and compassion, even for those who have harmed them. This has been a common thread through out our own history, and I can't see why it wouldn't be in the Realms as well.
quote:
Finally, elaborate and ritualized executions are more for the living than the soon-to-be dead. True, it's a final punishment for that individual, but it's also meant as a deterrent for those who would follow in his/her wake ("This is the fate that awaits you, and its not going to be pretty!"). For the victimized religious community, perhaps it also serves to satisfy a visceral need for vengeance, more than a rational desire for justice. In any case, though the execution sends the offending person straight to their deity, that's one less individual running around on the Prime Material advancing their deity's goals.
Must be my modern sensibilities coming into play. No matter how many examples we've made (by killing the "guilty"), people still continue to kill, maim, and/or torture other people. It's clear that death as a deterrent doesn't work, and I can't see how making the deaths any more gruesome would work any better. All we've done is mistakenly killed some who were not guilty along with those who were.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. If a deity can't see this, then we're all in trouble.  |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 01:28:37
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Oh, well said, Zandilar!
(In my professional work, I have seen SO many instances of "revenge" and "just retribution" that were anything but, that made everything worse, and that in some cases started feuds and dragged not just families, but communities and countries into strife and bad feelings and lasting "hard attitudes" . . . that were all unnecessary, or cynically manipulated by those who personally profited from the strife. Details, of course, I can't give.)
love,
THO |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 01:42:54
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Dear Ed and Lady THO,
I met a 50-ish gamer in a shop in Toronto today who said he once attended an sf convention where you and Roger Zelazny were lying on a ROOF at night, looking up at the stars and discussing sf, fantasy and gaming. He heard the two of you discussing Cthulhu and Amber and MESSENGER OF ZHUVASTOU by Andy Offut and a lot of other things besides, including a possible future collaboration. !!!! 
Can you tell us anything about that collaboration? Obviously it was never published, but how far along did it get?
I believe this guy, and I know about "A Secret of Amber" and told him what I'd read about it, and he said it wasn't about Amber at all.
So . . . I'm, like, EXCITED. Tell tell tell!
BB
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Aysen
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 03:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
IMHO, the Scarlet Mummers are prime candidates for being corrupted/converted to Shar or Loviatar or even Bane (he is the god of Hate, isn't he?) etc. Lliira is the goddess of Joy, and while I can see her being angry and maybe doing something in the immediate years following the death of her lover, I can't see her wanting to continue the rampage for very long. She's both Chaotic and Good, and being a deity I'm sure she's wise enough to see the peril her Mummers face if they continue down the bloodthirsty path of hatred.
No, the whole order is illogical and very very out of character for Lliira who, lets face it, still has the soul of her lover with her in her domain - it isn't like she couldn't elevate the High Priestess to some other state than petitioner, or intervene to allow the Priestess to keep her memories. In fact, they are united forever. (But even if she didn't want that, she could also restore the Priestess to life!} Yes, it may well be a tragedy that this particular Priestess had her life struck short, but the life she did live was full of Joy serving her goddess (and she was one of the few mortals who had her own deity as a lover!). Llirans hunting down and subjecting any and all Loviatans to painful deaths for the murder of their Priestess (it's certainly not as if ALL Loviatans are responsible for the death!) seems counter intuitive to Lliira's dogma. Once those directly responsible for the murder had been taken care of, it would be well on time to let go.
After reading your response, I went back to Ed's article on the Scarlet Mummers and re-read it. I think that Llira was aware that an order solely devoted to vengeance would not last long amongst her faithful once the original perpetrators were brought to justice, so she allowed the order to broaden its aims. The article says they have expanded their role to protecting the Lliran temples and defending their more peaceful peers. They aren't actively engaged in killing all evil people, only those strike out against Llira's faithful first. In her response, the lady Zandilar affirms a solid stance against eye-for-an-eye practices, so even this may meet with disapproval.
Also, the article states that Llira keeps very close personal tabs on each Scarlet Mummer to keep them from straying her service, or to prevent others from impersonating them. It wouldn't be impossible for the Mummers to be corrupted, but it would be very hard for it to do so unnoticed by Llira (who will almost certainly act to end the corruption in some way).
Zandilar, I agree that the Mummers seem illogical and out-of-character as an order devoted to Llira, and that's what makes them so interesting. Ed always seems to come up with these surprising tidbits of realmslore that show another side of a person, place, deity, or organization, and there's always a reason behind it. In this case it was a darker side, borne out of tragedy. I'm curious about whether other goodly faiths have a darker side too, and whether its expressed through some unique capital punishment, and the reasons behind it. So here I am patiently waiting for further information from Ed and LHO. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 07:55:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
IMHO, the Scarlet Mummers are prime candidates for being corrupted/converted to Shar or Loviatar or even Bane (he is the god of Hate, isn't he?)
Why not converted to Hoar? He's the god of vengeance after all. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 08:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Acck! I turn my back to do some Canada Day security work
I had to google that.
I liked the older name better. "Dominion Day". That's almost Realmsian. ;)
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
IMHO, the Scarlet Mummers are prime candidates for being corrupted/converted to Shar or Loviatar or even Bane (he is the god of Hate, isn't he?)
I like the Scarlet mummers as a concept, but they are indeed treading on dangerous terrian, risking becoming what they seek to destroy (but isn't that a classic element of fantasy?).
Mind, I always liked Loviatar (and Sharess and Llira - though I liked Sune less) and I worked to use them all in the Dalelands adventures.
I assume the Mummers migth have a royal pain with some NPCs that worship both.
Note that in 4th ed Realms, Llira may well have more trouble keeping tabs on her Mummmers (since revoking powers etc is not as easya ny more). That migth make things more interesting.
Now a Scarlet Mummer as a villain... hmmm.
Gomez
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 08:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Aysen
Ed always seems to come up with these surprising tidbits of realmslore that show another side of a person, place, deity, or organization, and there's always a reason behind it. In this case it was a darker side, borne out of tragedy. I'm curious about whether other goodly faiths have a darker side too, and whether its expressed through some unique capital punishment, and the reasons behind it. So here I am patiently waiting for further information from Ed and LHO.
You only have to read his write-up for the "prayer book" for Ilmater in "Prayers from the Faithful" to see how good religions can go bad ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 09:04:50
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Folks, we seem to be deviating somewhat from the original purpose of this scroll. If you'd all like this current bout of off-topicness to continue, I'd suggest shifting it to a new scroll. Let's keep some room for questions/answers to/from Ed.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 09:20:19
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Scarlet mumemr question for Ed then:
After the Spellplague and the last era with teh resshuffling of deities and their respsonsibilities and powers... how much control would Llira still ahve over her Scarlet Mummers? Would she still be able to intervene is one went 'bad'?
Or does the 'Blue Breath of Change' include a greater disconnect between deities and worshippers, thus allowing for a less moral order of Mummers?
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 15:00:44
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Heya,
Firstly @Lady Hooded One -
Thanks!  
quote:
Originally posted by gomez
Scarlet mumemr question for Ed then:
After the Spellplague and the last era with teh resshuffling of deities and their respsonsibilities and powers... how much control would Llira still ahve over her Scarlet Mummers? Would she still be able to intervene is one went 'bad'?
Or does the 'Blue Breath of Change' include a greater disconnect between deities and worshippers, thus allowing for a less moral order of Mummers?
Adding on to that: would they even exist 100 years later? (Things change, folks, the Realms haven't been static, and Chaotic aligned organizations would be the most fluid of them all.)
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Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 15:39:56
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Hi again, all.
Aysen and Zandilar, Ed hath responded to your Scarlet Mummers queries:
Hi. Well, if you're looking at the Realms on or after the Year of the Ageless One, I think the Scarlet Mummers might still exist as a sort of self-interested secret society/violent power group, but NOT as a "holy arm" of any faith. There would still be temple guards, yes, and they might even cling to the name ("We are the TRUE Scarlet Mummers!"), but the Scarlet Mummers as depicted in published Realmslore thus far . . . no. I can't see them NOT getting out of hand over a century, because they already were out of hand in many ways in the 1370s DR.
Deities can always take action in the Realms, but I see them all, in the wake of the "we all got scorched" events of the Spellplague and the deity shenanagins that precipitated it, as being far more cautious. As in: primarily working through mortal pawns, both clergy and "right outside the faith" individuals whom they can use to do things clergy dare not do (lead raids, do murders and arson, et al) without losing public support and good regard. Now, when I write those words, I don't want to leave the impression that all deities are busily scheming their ways through a constant campaign of "dirty tricks" - - mortals just don't know what most deities spend their primary attention and time on, and some of them seem very "remote" from priestly pleas, or send the same dream-visions to many supplicants who pray to them (i.e. "here's your nightly broadcast" rather than, "Hello, particular mortal. Here is YOUR message from me").
It may be trite to restate that "Gods move in mysterious ways," but they do.
So in my Realms campaign, if it ever reaches the 1470s, the Scarlet Mummers will at "best" (if that's the right word) be a name appropriated by various independent power groups, not servants controlled by a goddess to work her will.
So saith Ed. Who's now turning back to writing . . . oh, sorry. I can't say more, so I'll just remind everyone that the important paperback anthology GAMER FANTASTIC (which contains tales by Steven Schend, Richard Lee Byers, Don Bingle (longtime "lead" RPGA player), Bill Fawcett (designer of much of the original D&D druid in early DRAGON articles), Jim Hines (writer of the delightful Goblin trilogy and an even more interesting series now unfolding from DAW), Jody Lynn Nye, Kristine Kathryn Rusch, Brian Thomsen's last published story [which Realms fans will find MOST interesting], and others - - not to mention Ed, who contributed both a fun-new-look-at-fantasy-gaming-conventions [and elves, Dagnirion!] story and a tribute to Gary Gygax) will be released July 7, 2009! Essential reading, folks; buy it!!!
love to all,
THO |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2009 : 01:32:19
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Heya,
This question is kind of a blast from the past for me. A loooong time ago, I read a Dragon article called "A Plethora of Paladins"* - it was first published in Dragon #106, and I actually read it off the Dragon Archives CD set. A friend of mine was really taken by the Lyan (the LN Paladin presented in APoP), and so it made its appearance in several games he ran as a DM (needless to say, I dislike the LN alignment most of all DnD alignments, so the experience of the rather overpowered Lyan N/DMPC was not a pleasant one for me - especially since this DM conflated LN with LE a lot of the time too.)
I was wondering what Ed thought of the article (I'm not even going ask if he read it, because I'm sure he has), and whether he ever contemplated adapting something like it to the Realms? Personally, I think the article overemphasized alignment, and feel that multiple types of paladins would most likely be distinguished by their religions not their alignments (for example, a paladin of Sharess and a paladin of Tymora would be very different classes, despite both being CG).
3e DnD did try to bring back the idea of alignment based paladin types (separate classes for some, but not all, alignments, in Unearthed Arcarna, and I think Complete Divine(?)), but I don't think it succeeded terribly well, and 4e has lifted alignment restrictions on paladins all together IIRC.
*The article can be found online, but since I'm sure it's not been reproduced with permission, I won't link it here. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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Aysen
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2009 : 09:14:40
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Firstly, thanks Ed and LHO for the swift feedback on the Scarlet Mummers.
I have another question that deals with the passage of time in Seros and the Sea of Corynactis.
How do the civilized denizens of the seas, especially in the deeper areas of the oceans (middle-pelagic on downward), mark the passage of months or days?
There is the Timesong Calendar to mark off years, but is there a need to chart months or days? That far down, your circadian rhythm couldn't rely on the sun, nor would there be a need for a lunar calendar. Whereas on land, the Harptos Calendar corresponds to seasonal weather change and agricultural activities, is there a parallel under the seas that, for example, relies on krill spawnings or migratory patterns, or the temperature change of ocean currents?
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2009 : 16:53:11
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Hi again, all.
I bring you olnce more the words of Ed, this time in response to this, from Blueblade: "Dear Ed and Lady THO, I met a 50-ish gamer in a shop in Toronto today who said he once attended an sf convention where you and Roger Zelazny were lying on a ROOF at night, looking up at the stars and discussing sf, fantasy and gaming. He heard the two of you discussing Cthulhu and Amber and MESSENGER OF ZHUVASTOU by Andy Offut and a lot of other things besides, including a possible future collaboration. !!!!
Can you tell us anything about that collaboration? Obviously it was never published, but how far along did it get?
I believe this guy, and I know about "A Secret of Amber" and told him what I'd read about it, and he said it wasn't about Amber at all.
So . . . I'm, like, EXCITED. Tell tell tell!
BB"
Ed replies:
Hi, Blueblade. Yes, the gamer you met wasn't telling any fibs. Roger liked to lie on roofs and talk. And we did have a chat or two up on roofs (where for one thing, if there was any sort of breeze, he could chain-smoke to his heart's content without asphyxiating the rest of us), including the one you mention. Which I remember well. :}
The short way of answering you is: no, the planned collaboration was nothing at all to do with Amber, and in the end never happened, because Roger died.
The slightly longer version is: I wrote up about four paragraphs of "development" after talking with Roger, and later read them to him, and we were going to get together at the GenCon where he was to be GoH, in 2005, and expand things and really get going. Of course, Roger didn't live long enough to attend that GenCon. I haven't used that material in anything else, and probably won't, though I've learned never to say never . . .
It's really too fragmentary to be anything more than notions, and was to be picaresque, using the familiar smart-mouthed first-person Zelazny narrator, an Anthony Villiers (Panshin) or Hub (Schmitz) -style intergalactic empire, and magic that works (on a personal, short-range level, not a world-shaking or militaristic level) spreading throughout that empire from a single planet that the empire "conquers" but ignores (a la THE THURB REVOLUTION) as an undeveloped backwater.
So many things were lost (sigh) when Roger died . . .
So saith Ed. Who still mourns Roger, as you can see. Pity we all lost that series; it sounds as if it would have been a good one. I know Ed has other irons in his creative fire, such as an entire NEW game/novel setting (not the Realms, not Castlemourn, and not Embersea) that he'll unfurl when the time is right. Right now, however, he's writing hard in the Realms.
love to all,
THO |
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2009 : 15:56:02
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Dear Ed and Lady THO,
A young friend of mine has finally "discovered" D&D, and wants to start a Realms campaign. His birthday gift was a set of the 4e rulebooks plus the two Realms books, and he wants me to DM. I'm up for it (he's going to discover I like Ed's "storytelling, what rules?" style rather than "straight" 4e rules), but for now he definitely wants to expereince the 4e Realms, rather than the older 1350s-1370s times.
Knowing something about my players, I'm starting them in rural Cormyr, with an eye to travel to the bright lights of Suzail (to try to get a charter) after they have a few adventures under their belts. I have "Backdrop: Cormyr" but I also have a question or two, one of them being: how much cultural knowledge (books, music, dances and fashions, daily broadsheets or social-comment chapbooks) was "lost" in the Spellplague ravages? Did plays and rural peoples' memories of good (or just notorious) writers, bards, and minstrels pretty much survive? How about rumors, tall tales, and "open" dirty secrets about local rogues, misbehaving nobles, and womanizers? And if they did survive, how much has faded into irrelevance with the passage of a century? I'm talking Wheloon, Waymoot, Espar, Hultail, Immersea, and places of that ilk, not Arabel and Suzail (Marsember I'm saving for later).
Thanks in advance for any information and/or guidance you can give.
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2009 : 16:03:04
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Dear THO,
I recently ran into an older black gamer at a local hobby shop for the first time, and he fondly remembered Ed as "a complete non-racist" who cheerfully invited black and Indian (as in, from India) gamers to his gaming table at a long-vanished local hobby store when other DMs were telling them to "find their own DM, you know, one of you" and form their own gaming group.
My question is: when running the Realms, has Ed as DM ever depicted characters having any racist attitudes within the same race (i.e. not humans hating orcs, or dwarves sniping at elves and vice versa, but humans about other humans)? I know he's described class-sneering (commoners vs. nobles, resistance to social climbers and "wannabe" nobles), and older folks having set ideas about the gender roles younger generations should be fulfilling, but I was curious about the racist angle.
If you'd rather not say, I quite understand. I'm not trying to light any fires here, I'm just trying to get a very clear picture of the Realms as Ed portrays them. I envy those who've played with Ed as DM in any sort of long-running sense, as opposed to one-shot sessions at conventions. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2009 : 16:19:05
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Hi Ed and THO,
Another Knights of Myth Drannor question, this time: have Rathan or Torm every fathered children? Have either of them ever had any stable, long-term relationships (wedded or otherwise)?
Thanks!
BB |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2009 : 16:28:17
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Just an observation from a purely 'scientific' standpoint, and also that of an avid SciFi reader/fan (which addresses this much more then fantasy).
The existance of other races tends to lessen the 'human on human' hatreds we are so familiar with in our own world. Racism is is based on ignorance, and the thought "THEY are different then US". In a society where there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other races other then humans, the ignorance and prejudices will naturally gravitate to those that are even more different then what we are accustomed to.
First, a RW point-of-reference: Freaks... it's an ugly word. And yet, humans have a horrible habit of paying to see those 'different' then ourselves, and developing illogical revulsions for such people. This goes all the way back, when Kings and Pharoahs used 'dwarves' to entertain them and their guests.
Second, a very good if fictional reference from a fairly recent movie - do you remember in the film Independence Day, when Earth was being decimated by the aliens? One of my favorite parts of that movie was that the humans from all over the world suddenly put aside their ancient hatreds - there is a scene where the Arab and Israeli airforces are working together! Positively brilliant!
And thats what would happen - Bigotry works just that way. You only hate those that are 'different' from you, until something even more different arrives on the scene. History is full of warring factions putting aside their differences when some common 'threat' arrives, and on a fantasy world like Toril, that 'common threat' is all around, and constantly 'in-your-face'.
Ergo, the very existance of Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, and even Halflings would cause humans to get along with each other much better, and all of those races would get along with humans (and vice-versa) because of the even greater (and uglier) threat of Orcs, Goblinoids, Illithids, Drow, etc, etc....
I think Starman said it best - "Humans are at their best, when things are at their worst". 
Sorry for the side-discussion, but I just felt the need to toss my two cents into the pile on this subject. I think Ed did a helluva job in eliminating the RW predujices against race, creed, color, and sex, and unlike many folks I've discussed it with, I think it makes perfect sense when you take the vast cultural landscape of Toril into consideration. Someone's skin color matters very little when there is an Orc Horde over the next hill. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jul 2009 16:30:30 |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2009 : 19:02:56
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| Well, if you count multi-species racism, such as Drow vs. Gold Elf vs. Moon Elf, you can actually find quite a lot of it in the Realms. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe
Canada
161 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2009 : 20:31:38
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Blueblade, when it comes to Torm fathering children, we'd better specify to Ed that we're including both children he knows of - - and DOESN'T know of.  |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2009 : 20:40:33
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| I'd like to second Blueblade's question and expand it to encompass all the Knights' offspring, legitimate and otherwise. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2009 : 01:04:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
<chop>
Pity we all lost that series; it sounds as if it would have been a good one. I know Ed has other irons in his creative fire, such as an entire NEW game/novel setting (not the Realms, not Castlemourn, and not Embersea) that he'll unfurl when the time is right. Right now, however, he's writing hard in the Realms.
love to all,
THO
I second the lamentation. But what's this about a NEW world? And has any progress been made on revealing my favourite piece of NDA'd lore (yes, that's right, the Cormyr lineage again; I'm trying not to flog this dead horse *too* terribly often, for all of our sakes)? Please, THO, don't provoke questions you can't answer. It's not a very nice thing to do, especially to answer-obsessed people like myself. But because it's you, I'll forgive you.
I've just finished catching up on this scroll after a roughly month-long absence from the Keep, and I'm delighted by some of the gems of lore I've found, particularly the list of former apprentices of The Simbul and the exchange between Ed and Wooly regarding Laerakond. I'll try to check in a bit more regularly from now on; I burned my dinner in an effort to get through the last two pages of the scroll before eating. Oh well. It wasn't *badly* burned. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2009 : 02:05:59
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Hi, Jakk. I hope you were able to eat the blackened bits. I always found they went down easier if I pretended I was at camp, and cooking over a fire.
As for the Cormyr lineage, attempts were being made to post that (for free, and in the free area) of the Wizards website, but somewhere along the line someone at WotC shifted it into the hands of the D&D Insider people, who treated it as a regular submission - - and of course it's WAY too long, and not specifically 4e, and so on, for their purposes. So it got stalled again.
Ed has already resolved to try again in person, at GenCon, to talk to some of the Wizards brass to get it onto the free part of the website, or failing that to get permission to post it here at Candlekeep or somewhere else on the Net . . . so he's preceding very cautiously, trying not to mishandle things and get the attempt quashed for good.
The lineage is massive, and represents a lot of effort by a lot of people, including Grant Christie, Bryon Wischstadt, Tom Costa, Eric Boyd, Steven Schend, George Krashos, Ed himself of course [the "root document" was his, and he's stepped in to augment and edit several times], and most recently, in a steller rewrite and expansion, by Brian Cortijo. I hope I'm not missing anyone out. Truly, it's a piece of lore to rival the Grand History Brian James assembled, and it SHOULD be published, somewhere and somehow, for interested Realms fans. So, stay tuned . . .
Ed is trying to claw some time free in every day to at least try to concoct more Realmslore replies for us here at the Keep. However, the man DOES have to try to earn a living, and is usually juggling a lot more projects than most of us ever face. So again, stay tuned, and I'll rush you and every scribe his replies without delay, whenever I can.
love,
THO |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2009 : 03:55:30
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Ed, both City of Splendors and Waterdeep and the North mention non-magical divination as a service that can be bought in Waterdeep (although noting that most prefer priestly methods.) How do those non-magical diviners work? What are their methods (I know I have a list of standards from Earth, although not at hand)? How often are they right (beyond pure, random chance)? Finally, have any of these non-magical auguries ever been significant, whether in truth or in influence over events (ie: crafting mass hysteria, or courting public opinion?)
Edit: As always, any answer is appreciated. Thank you. |
Edited by - Arivia on 06 Jul 2009 03:55:55 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2009 : 04:16:13
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Hi, Arivia. Your question has been sent on to Ed (I e-mail all the relevant postings from this thread to him, as his Net connection remains primitive indeed).
I know that part of his response to you (the methods of non-magical divination) were covered in a long-ago DRAGON article by another of Ed's original "home Realms campaign" players, Andrew Dewar (who has for many years now been the head of a university library in Japan). I'm blanking on the title of the article (the DRAGON editors always made up those terrible titles anyway; they almost never used the titles that writers submitted the articles with), but it was an NPC class for the early D&D game, a diviner. Andrew listed twenty or so traditional real-world methods of divining, from goat entrails to tea leaves, and their real-world names; you can assume that almost all of them are in use in Waterdeep and other Sword Coast and Heartland cities.
Ed will, of course, provide a proper answer in the fullness of time.
Er, whenever that may prove to be.
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 06 Jul 2009 04:24:40 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2009 : 04:20:25
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| I'm not Ed, so I can't help with the broader answer, and I can't tickle like THO, so I can't hurry it along, but I can at least point you at the Dragon article. It's called "The Oracle: When He Talks, Everybody Listens," and it's in Dragon #53. Hope that helps some. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2009)
Topic Locked
