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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2009 :  19:13:59  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello again, all. Ed has family visiting again, and is hampered in his online time (and Realms-attention time, too!) hereby, but has managed to produce lore in response to a promise I made in the Realms Challenge thread.
The Simbul (our scribe here at the Keep by that name, that is) posed an excellent multi-part question in challenge to fellow scribes; that of naming the apprentices of The Simbul (the in-the-Realms character of that name, Ed's creation). It was answered, largely by Fillow and George Krashos, and the challenges have moved on.
However, I promised The Simbul (the scribe) that I would provide the list of apprentices I had in my player's notes, drawn from Ed's handouts, comments, and my remembrances of play sessions, if Ed gave me permission to do so.
Well, Ed went one better, as usual. He checked his NDAs and then passed along a longer list of his own - - and here it is.

According to Ed’s notes, an incomplete list of The Simbul’s DIRECT apprentices down the years (that is, individuals she trained personally, on more than an one-incident or single task basis; she instructed many, many groups of mages on spell-work for specific battles) is as given hereafter. Note that these are the “callings” used by individuals when actually apprenticed to The Simbul, not necessary their real, entire, or best-known names.


Alaeya Summerstar
Alueeme Saryn (“The Masked One”)
Bowmyn Starbridge
Braskelo Moonweather
Brenna Graycloak
Callond Mornbright
Daerovyn Bracegaunt
Emraryl Silver
Evenyl Tharnian (Evenyl Nathtalond)
Filaerra Firehorn
Gelroar Sparpyke
Haerla Glasryn
Hondrar Silver
Indrin Melpretarr
Ismur Isyioanthan (“Isyio of Teziir”)
Jasma Palondorn
Jelarra Haelhart
Kethrae Alantrorra
Labranth Harpell
Luin Alamanther
Lyran Duskwood
“Mandrar” (Manshoon clone)
Melué Helmantle
Nalandra Ravendown
Ohland Grethgar
Omrae Manannthor
Phaeldara Mrallow
Phendelopé Dracostrond
Roryn Ostil
Soebraya Tarntarth
Thorneira Thalance
Trestar Zhelankho
Veldarra Maerynd
Vorn Halakrand
Yarrana Tambranthur


(And there are more, but some are still NDA’d and others tied to possible future projects by other creators whose hands Ed doesn’t want to tie by mentioning anything as of yet.)
Just the names thus far, but if you wheedle Ed with sufficient vigor . . .
love to all,
THO
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36782 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2009 :  19:34:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
Well, I'll ask for more info about a few (mainly chosen because of cool names, though I'd really like to know about the Manshoon clone!)...

Alaeya Summerstar
Alueeme Saryn (“The Masked One”)
Bowmyn Starbridge
Braskelo Moonweather
Daerovyn Bracegaunt
Emraryl Silver
Hondrar Silver
Ismur Isyioanthan (“Isyio of Teziir”)
Jelarra Haelhart
Labranth Harpell
Luin Alamanther
Lyran Duskwood
“Mandrar” (Manshoon clone)
Nalandra Ravendown
Phendelopé Dracostrond


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Malcolm
Learned Scribe

242 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2009 :  20:01:39  Show Profile  Visit Malcolm's Homepage Send Malcolm a Private Message
Well, it was George Krashos who remembered the Manshoon clone, and I believe The Simbul said in replying to him that this clone hadn't been mentioned in 3e lore, so I'm thinking he's in CLOAK AND DAGGER or earlier. George?
Looking down the list, I'm going to guess that Luin Alamanther is the mage we just knew as "Alamanther," and that the Summerstar, Harpell, and Silver apprentices are all from the already-known families of those names (from Cormyr, Longsaddle, and Aglarond respectively).
Am I right? THO? Ed?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36782 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2009 :  20:15:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm

Well, it was George Krashos who remembered the Manshoon clone, and I believe The Simbul said in replying to him that this clone hadn't been mentioned in 3e lore, so I'm thinking he's in CLOAK AND DAGGER or earlier. George?


The Manshoon Wars were in Cloak & Dagger. That is indeed where that clone was mentioned, though he wasn't given a name. When the 3E FRCS came out, they kinda just brushed the Manshoon Wars to the side and left us with three surviving clones.


quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm

Looking down the list, I'm going to guess that Luin Alamanther is the mage we just knew as "Alamanther," and that the Summerstar, Harpell, and Silver apprentices are all from the already-known families of those names (from Cormyr, Longsaddle, and Aglarond respectively).
Am I right? THO? Ed?



I'm assuming the same thing, but either way, I would like to know more about them. The familiarity of some of those names is why I picked them.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  01:38:24  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message
My Lady, I'll echo Wooly's listing, and also ask about those he missed, since some of the names intrigue me particularly:-

Callond Mornbright
Evenyl Tharnian (Evenyl Nathtalond)
Filaerra Firehorn
Gelroar Sparpyke
Haerla Glasryn
Indrin Melpretarr
Kethrae Alantrorra
Melué Helmantle
Ohland Grethgar
Omrae Manannthor
Phaeldara Mrallow
Roryn Ostil
Soebraya Tarntarth
Thorneira Thalance
Trestar Zhelankho
Veldarra Maerynd
Vorn Halakrand
Yarrana Tambranthur

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  01:40:54  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm

Looking down the list, I'm going to guess that Luin Alamanther is the mage we just knew as "Alamanther," and that the Summerstar, Harpell, and Silver apprentices are all from the already-known families of those names (from Cormyr, Longsaddle, and Aglarond respectively).
Am I right? THO? Ed?

Ed, I wouldn't mind also hearing about how these particular apprentices fared among their already "well-known" families.

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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  02:27:27  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I've always thought the same thing: Most of the fantasy art 'bias' toward beautiful, scantily-clad women, and ruggedly handsome, mighty-thewed men was for 2 reasons: 1) They catch the eye, and since that's the whole point to a book jacket, that's what the artists are paid to do, and probably even more so 2) How much easier is it to draw/paint/etc attractive, striking, distinctive people than ordinary, nondescript ones? Not being an artist myself, I don't know, but it seems to me that having outstanding features to depict is probably quite a lot simpler than the reverse.



It is quite possible to be distinctive without being overtly attractive.

If you saw a woman walk into a bar with a scar down the left side of her face that had taken her eye, which can plainly be seen because she doesn't have a patch covering the ruined eye socket, but her non-marred features are relatively plain looking... You'd notice her, I'm sure.

That's a rather extreme example - but how about Elminster-in-female-form - Elmara? She's got a beak-like nose, but is rather plain otherwise... She's distinctive.

I could go on and on with this, but I think I've made my point.

Edited to Add: Rather than post another reply right after this one (I was in a hurry and didn't manage to read the rest of the thread from the message I replied to here), some of the names in the list are ambiguous (to me) regarding gender... Would be nice to at least have that cleared up.

Also, I'd like Ed to expand on whichever of the apprentices has the biggest impact on the Simbul's life. And whichever is his personal favorite. (I don't mind if that turns out to be the same one. )

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.

Edited by - Zandilar on 28 Jun 2009 04:30:00
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  04:40:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
I'd be more interested in knowing if they are all human, or rather, 'humanish' (which would include demi-humans). I think it would be kinda cool if there were a couple of oddballs thrown in there, like a Goblinoid, or even an Illithid.

Leave it to the Simbul to create a Kobold Archmage.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jun 2009 04:41:58
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6651 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  05:26:11  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
I'm in the process of collating Ed's answers here for my own ends and I came across this post from the Simbul about ... THE Simbul.

quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
In either case however, the information is sparse. Beyond that, there is a short story about her in Dragon #242 that takes place in the Year of the Roaring Tempest (1016 DR), and the memory of Elminster when he first encountered her appears in Elminster in Hell in the Year of the Burning Steel (1246 DR). In terms of the timeline of the Realms, these are the earliest events of her life to be explored in published stories.



As a consequence of other projects, I've been looking at the Simbul's pre-reign activities and I had another look at this snippet from 'Elminster in Hell'. The book's preface says that the first 'confrontation' between Elminster and the Simbul occurs in the Year of Burning Steel (1246 DR). I note however that the snippet talks about Aglarond's ruler being Queen Ilione. She didn't ascend to the throne of that realm until the Year of the Broken Blade(1260 DR) [incorrectly dated in GHotR as 1261 DR]. Is the story 'dating' in error (i.e. does this event actually occur after 1260 DR)? I note also that the "meeting date" of 1246 DR comes from "Seven Sisters" (p.9). Thara and Ulae lived until 1257 DR so .. what gives?

Also, as an aside, the story snippet on their meeting and the accompanying piece in "Seven Sisters" seems to imply that the Simbul is aware of her bond with Mystra at the time of their encounter. On this, is she aware that she is "Chosen" or simply "special"? When did she learn that she was "Chosen" and about her abilities (i.e. silverfire etc.) Is she aware that she has sisters? If so, when did this happen?

Lore-hungry as always. The yum-cha this morning has filled the provender void, but now I need some Realms sustenance!

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 28 Jun 2009 05:33:19
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe

Israel
352 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  06:28:26  Show Profile  Visit Menelvagor's Homepage Send Menelvagor a Private Message
Correct me if I am mistaken: The Simbul's primary apprentices (who are also regals) who appear in books (notably Silverfall and Elminster in Hell), were Alueeme Saryn (“The Masked One”), Evenyl Tharnian (Evenyl Nathtalond), Phaeldara Mrallow, and Thorneira Thalance ("The Small Fury"), yes? Do they appear elsewhere in books or sourcebooks?


"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.

"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.

"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."

"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'."

Edited by - Menelvagor on 28 Jun 2009 06:36:35
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Aysen
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  12:41:51  Show Profile  Visit Aysen's Homepage Send Aysen a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Also, as an aside, the story snippet on their meeting and the accompanying piece in "Seven Sisters" seems to imply that the Simbul is aware of her bond with Mystra at the time of their encounter. On this, is she aware that she is "Chosen" or simply "special"? When did she learn that she was "Chosen" and about her abilities (i.e. silverfire etc.) Is she aware that she has sisters? If so, when did this happen?




The exposition in the first chapter of Lynn Abbey's The Simbul's Gift answers most of these. As a toddler, Alassra was given to the care of the Witches of Rashemen by Elminster and he told them she was an orphan without sisters. She was probably oblivious to her siblings until Elminster or Mystra revealed them later after she was a Chosen (the novel doesn't say).

However, the novel explains that Alassra was already a powerful sorceress before she became the Simbul or Chosen. While exploring the planes, she realizes she doesn't age and is "special" somehow. Later during her lost wanderings, she meets and falls in love with Lailomun Zerad, a Thayan mageling. Lailomun's mentor Mythrell'aa discovered their tryst, and definitively ended that relationship, perhaps kindling Alassra's hate of Red Wizards.

Alassra then retreats to the planes to gather spell components to take her vengeance on Thay. While there, Mystra confronts her and after a month of confrontation, Alassra returns to Toril as a Chosen. Soon after she settles in Aglarond and becomes a part of that realm's history. Unfortunately no dates or Roll Year names are given for any of the above, so its hard to know how many years Alassra spent as the Simbul before Elminster confronts her in 1246DR.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  15:08:00  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
A passing note re. the 35th Annual ORIGINS Awards: the FRCG lost out, but Devil’s Due, Jim Lowder, et al won for WORLDS OF DUNGEONS & DRAGONS 2 (which included “Elminster At the MageFair”).
George, I quite agree the conflicts and fuzzinesses re. El and The simbul’s early encounters need to be cleared up, and have forwarded your post to Ed - - but I have to stress that most of the NDAs Ed is stickhandling around directly concern The Simbul’s activities (rather than most of her apprentices), and it may take a little while for Ed to literally negotiate his way through them (he and Lynn are friends, and he doesn’t think she’ll be doing another Realms novel soon, and “elbow room” for her to do so are linked to some of the NDAs, but since the advent of Hasbro, simple “gentlemens’ agreements” [ladies included or not] are no longer so simple).
However, I can go through the list again and give a LITTLE more information, in the way of gender (aside from my speculations, not race, yet, although most of them are going to be human or half-elven):

Alaeya Summerstar: f
Alueeme Saryn (“The Masked One”): f
Bowmyn Starbridge: m
Braskelo Moonweather: m
Brenna Graycloak: f
Callond Mornbright: m
Daerovyn Bracegaunt: m
Emraryl Silver: f
Evenyl Tharnian (Evenyl Nathtalond): f
Filaerra Firehorn: f
Gelroar Sparpyke: m [this guy may be a half-orc or something exotic, because of the way he was spoken of by the NPC we Knights met, who mentioned him]
Haerla Glasryn: f [she may be exotic, too; cambion? Alu-fiend? Some sort of lower-planar/human crossbreed?]
Hondrar Silver: m
Indrin Melpretarr: m
Ismur Isyioanthan (“Isyio of Teziir”): m
Jasma Palondorn: f
Jelarra Haelhart: f [noted as “a wild one” by NPC commentator]
Kethrae Alantrorra: f
Labranth Harpell: m
Luin Alamanther: m
Lyran Duskwood: m
“Mandrar” (Manshoon clone): m
Melué Helmantle: f
Nalandra Ravendown: f
Ohland Grethgar: m
Omrae Manannthor: f
Phaeldara Mrallow: f
Phendelopé Dracostrond: f [“a noble from somewhere; Tethyr?” was the NPC comment]
Roryn Ostil: m
Soebraya Tarntarth: f
Thorneira Thalance: f
Trestar Zhelankho: m
Veldarra Maerynd: f
Vorn Halakrand: m
Yarrana Tambranthur: f


So there’s another step in this tantalizing “slow peel and reveal” we seem to be doing. (Ahem; SUCH a foreign concept for moi!)
More when I can find out more,
Love,
THO
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  15:17:39  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

so.
Well, Ed went one better, as usual. He checked his NDAs and then passed along a longer list of his own - - and here it is.



I had half expected - well, hoped, perhaps - to see Breeandra Nenthyn among them. Not that I ever thought Breeandra was more than a dabbler in the arts, but some hints in Volo's Guide implied that the two knew each other more than just in passing... unless 'Brenna Graycloak' refers to Breeandra?
If it doesn't break NDA's (Breeandra Nenthyn died some time ago now), would Ed be able to tell a bit about whether existed a relation between the two?

Gomez
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  15:24:45  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all!
George, this just in, from Ed:
The story dating in ELMINSTER IN HELL is indeed in error: the "memory snippet" that was published in that novel took place in 1262 DR.
The two DID meet in 1246 DR, in a scene that was edited out of EL IN HELL for length reasons (a LOT got snipped out of that book, for those same reasons). El was posing as someone else, in a magical disguise and using another name, to work against certain Thayan mages in a subtle rather than a "I'm a Chosen, my spells defy and defeat thee, hahahaha!" manner. The Simbul (I don't know if she was using that name at the time) was also in conflict with the Thayans, and the two of them ended up as brief, temporary allies in spell-battle.
Ed doesn't have time to try to retrieve that scene right now (it's on one of several hundred backup floppy discs, the computer it was written on having crashed, Zip drive first and the Zip cartridge in it dying an inglorious death in the process), but promises me he'll unearth it eventually. And either share it here at the Keep or try to get it onto the WotC website (free part only!), or something of the sort.
I never read the scene, so I can't tell you if El recognized The Simbul as the child he'd left with the Witches, or if Mystra or Azuth was keeping the Chosen informed as to the maturing and progress of the Seven all along, or . . . anything. I AM fairly certain, from the way Ed spoke of the scene, that The Simbul didn't know who her temporary ally really was.
So the "bad date" tag left in the published EL IN HELL referred to the wrong scene: the one that got taken out, rather than the one that survived (its date tag got edited out in error).
Sigh.
It's things like this that start wars in our real world . . .
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  15:27:26  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi yet AGAIN.
gomez, I THINK Breeandra was another ally and sometime working-partner of The Simbul rather than an apprentice - - but I'll ask Ed. This may be another case of "not mentioned because of NDA" (which covers, I believe, almost a dozen more characters who should be on an "Apprentices of The Simbul" list).
love,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 28 Jun 2009 15:31:30
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  15:57:01  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by gomez

unless 'Brenna Graycloak' refers to Breeandra?
Gomez



I don't believe so. Brenna mostly plays a part in the Red Magic novel and she's written up in Heroes Lorebook. She is briefly mentioned in the Spellbound box set.

I always wanted to know more about her after reading that Harper novel. Hint, hint. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  16:50:21  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
Kuje is correct: Brenna and Breeandra are two different people. Kuje, your "hint, hint" has been sent off to Ed, who responded with a "teaser" for us all: his notes entry for the first apprentice on his long list.
Here, then, is all we know of Alaeya Summerstar (enjoy!):

Alaeya Summerstar: human female, great-aunt to the Lord Summerstar (patriarch) of Cormyr seen in Ed’s KNIGHTS OF MYTH DRANNOR trilogy. Young, impish, wayward, and gentle, light blonde hair, snub nose, “plain as a boot.” Considered “strange” (perhaps even of illegitimate birth) for having a talent for the Art, Alaeya sought out The Simbul for guidance. Of middling magical skills, Alaeya parted amicably from The Simbul, went her own way, and became a bucolic wanderer, living for short periods in many villages and wilderland steads. She never returned to Cormyr or her kin, and worked with Harpers from time to time. Last heard of on the verges of the High Forest north of Secomber, circa 1344 DR.


So saith Ed. More from him later, I hope. (To The Simbul: hope you've seen these posts. Talk about starting something . . . )
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  17:31:27  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
. . . And hello again, all.
Here's another Simbul's apprentice writeup Ed just sent me. This one was obviously close to hand because he'd updated it recently for 4e design use of some sort. Enjoy.

Daerovyn Bracegaunt: human male, sandy-haired, brown-eyed, restless young man of nondescript appearance and “serious, quiet-voiced, dry humour” manner. The son of Laraunder Bracegaunt, a busy glover and baldric-maker of Highmoon in Deepingdale (who sold his popular wares in Ordulin, and had all of his large, three-generation family engaged in making them - - until Laraunder and many of his family died in the plague that afflicted Scardale, while on a “set up a shop here?” visit), Daerovyn had wanderlust - - and a hunger for the Art - - from a very young age. The Zhentarim tried to recruit him as a local spy when he was very young, and when he later had contact with a traveling Harper, tried to threaten him by promising violence would be done to his family. A terrified Daerovyn fled to Yhaunn, signed on as a “copper and bread” crewman on a ramshackle freight cog helmed out of Tantras, and fled the cruelty of that life at the first port of call, in Aglarond. Came on The Simbul by chance while wandering through the realm, while she was using the guise of an aging male peddler, traveled with her for some days, fought to defend her when she was attacked by brigands - - and she took him on as an apprentice after revealing her true self in routing the brigands.
Always more comfortable as a warrior and wanderer than as a mage, though he could “feel the Weave” (detect magic, acutely discerning nature and strength, in a limited range) almost as well as a Chosen, Daerovyn became a loyal traveling envoy for The Simbul, and was still in her service when the Spellplague hit. Believed to have wed and settled somewhere in rural Aglarond, and to have had descendants.


So saith Ed. Bringing us all rich Realmslore, day by day in small but satisfying ways.

love to all,
THO
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2009 :  22:57:12  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
If milady has common Dalesfolk names to hand, like the Cormyte ones a little while back, I'd be pleased to see them.
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khorne
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1073 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2009 :  09:36:02  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage Send khorne a Private Message
I have a question about Elminster to Ed. Could you tell us of some times when Elminster badly misjudged his opponent? You see, I was remembering some scenes when baddies blast at El and when the smoke clears he just stands there and grins. In particular there was a scene with a lich who summoned an assortment of various nasties (can't remember which book it's in).

This got me thinking, has El ever been in a situation where he just stands still, waiting for the baddie's magic to just bounce of him (this seems to be a favorite of Ed. I think something like that happened in the first elminster book between a magelord and the Magister), and when the attack comes he realizes that he has severely underestimated the foe. Sort of like a zhentarim wizard of middling strength who has by chance discovered a killing spell that slices through protection spells like a knife through butter, or someone Elminster thought was just a random mugger in an alley (like how he met his daughter in the titular book) but turns out to be so supernaturally fast and strong that he/she is a genuine threat.

Sorry if this was a bit rambling, I have just been pondering this for "checks calendar" 5 months now and I had to spit it out.

If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy

Edited by - khorne on 29 Jun 2009 09:36:38
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 29 Jun 2009 :  14:28:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
He underestimated Shandril... but she was on 'his side', fortunately.

Then again, nearly everyone underestimated Shandril.

IMHO, someone like Khelben (full of hubris) would more-likely fall into that trap then Elminster - he doesn't seem the type to take stuff for granted. He is also the sneakiest git in the Realms, and usuaully had been observing any opponent for YEARS before they even became aware of him.

In fact, that's Elminster's Forte' - probably learned early-on against the Mage-Lords - know your enemies better then your friends, keep them close, and note any and all weaknesses. El could only be surprised by someone he has never encountered before... which is highly unlikeluy given his penchant to snoop into everything everywhere.

Someone from 'outside' the Realms could surprise him, as did that Saurial Wizard who swapped places with him, much to the Old mage's chagrin. Or maybe some 'random nobody' who just happen to stumble upon some ancient and powerful, magic.

But known quantities such as Zhentarrim and Red Wizards, not so much.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jun 2009 15:56:59
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

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Posted - 29 Jun 2009 :  15:18:21  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, everybody.
Good question, khorne. Off it's gone to Ed, and we'll see. In my play experience, Elminster does the "stand and take it" tactic in two situations: when he wants others to see and get wiser by seeing (the "oops, better not tangle with the old guy with the beard"), and when he's giving his attacker or a bystander time to make a moral decision or see the true nature of someone ("Will I strike this bearded old man down?" or "By Chauntea, that jack just hurled a spell at that old man! Smote him in cold blood, he did!").
However, Ed will of course have his own take on the situation.

In the meantime, I bring you Ed's swift reply to Faraer's query, being as this was something Ed has "ready notes" on. Here, therefore, are given names of the Dales, ladies first, listed alphabetically. Where variants are listed in a "comma row," they are listed in order of greater popularity before lesser. The most common names, overall, are denoted with an asterisk. Ed tells me these are current as of the 1370s; there have been some shifts in favoured nomenclature since the 1350s.
So here we go . . .

FEMALE
Alys *
Barandra
Bethra
Cheleace
Dellora, Delorna
Embra
Faehe
Glarra *
Haelone
Hestra *
Imbra
Jadynth
Jhaele
Kandratha
Kelnaere
Larune *, Lorune
Lyla *
Maethe
Malaena *
Mindra
Narra *
Nelnora
Ondra
Perendra
Raene
Ressa *, Resra
Sabrelle *
Saeryle
Sarindra *
Tarondra
Tashandra
Tessyn *
Velna, Velorna
Wyndra, Wyndara

MALE
Alarn
Bellard, Beliard
Brace *
Cadarn
Deln, Delyn
Dorn *
Embryn
Esmer, Esmur
Farl
Gulkin
Hargin, Hargrim
Harl *
Jaskur
Keldorn
Loryn *
Loskur
Mane
Mororn
Nardryn
Nindan, Nindyn
Norbryn
Parlond
Rory *, Roryn *, Rornagar
Rygur
Sandryn *
Telver *
Torst *
Wuldyn


So saith Ed. And there you have it, Faraer and all. Useful Realmslore; clip and save! (Collect [ahem] 'em all!)
love,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 29 Jun 2009 15:19:16
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bradhunter
Acolyte

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Posted - 29 Jun 2009 :  15:22:37  Show Profile  Visit bradhunter's Homepage Send bradhunter a Private Message
Dear Ed,

With the publication of the compilation issue of the recent Dragon magazine #376, Revenants have now become a legal player option for the Living Forgotten Realms campaign. The article shows these beings as souls returned by the Raven Queen in order to complete an unfinished task. There is a little fluff for alternate options, but nothing Realms specific is given, sadly.

Generally, when the Raven Queen is referenced, we are to assume that in a Realms game this means Kelemvor. Given his stance on undead, however, this would seem illogical. Kelemvor is for people dying at the appointed time and opposed to those who seek to extend their life unnaturally. Revenants are not truly undead, but are affected by spells and effects as if they were both undead and living.

Can you offer any insight? Might Kelemvor allow someone who has passed on to return to finish something left undone? If not Kelemvor, could you offer good alternatives to explain this in a Realms-specific fashion? Something that would allow one to play a revenant without stepping all over canon?

I hope to play one of these soon, and I'd like to be as true to Realms lore as possible.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

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Posted - 29 Jun 2009 :  15:37:48  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
bradhunter, this is something I can give you a swift answer on, by quoting my notes from Ed's comments from the time of the Avatar design discussions (not the internal TSR ones, but the gaming community ones that followed publication of the Time of Troubles/Avatar affair).
So, here's Ed, from almost two decades ago:

Kelemvor is one of the most unwilling and conflicted of the "New Gods." Although he has a fierce revulsion for undead, his hatred is reserved for "undead by choice" (such as liches). He has sympathy for haunts, apparitions, and revenants that exist because someone died without being able to finish a task, mission, or achievement that dominated their lives at the time of death, or so violently and "unfairly" that revenge or at least public identification of their slayer (as a warning to others) leaves them unable to "rest." So Kelemvor will turn a blind eye to "unfinished business" undead, but stand against those who seek to cheat death and achieve undeath thereby.

Now, that's Ed's opinion, at the time (and please note that "haunts, apparitions, and revenants" in his words refer to the 2e "monsters" of the game), but it's an opinion reached and informed by many discussions with TSR designers of the time, and their bosses, too (managers). In other words, the equivalent of Wizards designers and brass of today; those in charge of the game rules and of the unfolding metastory of the published Realms.
So I'd say Kelemvor would both allow such a "return," and not stand in the way of another deity empowering such undead, so long as that other deity wasn't using it to assemble an army of undead and try to dominate undeath (i.e. wrest portfolios or influence away from Kelemvor [[BTW, adding divine portfolios, per se, to the game was another Ed innovation, though in fuzzier form they were around in the game and real-world mythology and fantasy fiction long before Ed]].
So start playing your revenant right now . . .
I'll contact Ed with your post right away, of course, to see if he reacts with a "Whoa!" . . . but I don't expect one, and if you don't see one, Ed's long-ago words still stand.
love,
THO
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Jun 2009 :  16:06:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
So how would Kelemvor look at someone like a baelnorn -- a voluntary undead, but still one with a mission?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 29 Jun 2009 :  16:07:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Shar is the most obvious choice for a Raven Queen replacement. Considering her connections to the Shadowfel, into which the Negative Palne was rolled, I think it's a given that this is something she would 'back', simply because it sows chaos, which helps entropy along.

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi again, everybody.
Good question, khorne. Off it's gone to Ed, and we'll see. In my play experience, Elminster does the "stand and take it" tactic in two situations: when he wants others to see and get wiser by seeing(the "oops, better not tangle with the old guy with the beard"), and when he's giving his attacker or a bystander time to make a moral decision or see the true nature of someone ("Will I strike this bearded old man down?" or "By Chauntea, that jack just hurled a spell at that old man! Smote him in cold blood, he did!"). <snip>

Elminster also has spell-absorbing mantles usually in-place, which means he is clever-enough to be empowered by his foes attacks.

Why waste your own energy, when you can waste your enemy's against him?

I thought of this after my last post, but I figure it's still relevant - the first word that comes to mind when I think of Elminster is 'Wiley' - he does nothing without a reason, even if his reasons are unfathomable by most folks. He is the supreme coservationist - you do not knock down a village just to kill a rat (something many mages are guilty of - wasteful 'overkill').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jun 2009 02:05:06
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe

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624 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2009 :  16:58:03  Show Profile Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So how would Kelemvor look at someone like a baelnorn -- a voluntary undead, but still one with a mission?


This is something that I had to deal with in my last campaign, where the party, including both a Cleric and a Paladin devoted to Kelemvor, needed assistance from a baelnorn. My conclusion was that baelnorn are outside Kelemvor's 'jurisdiction', by agreement with Shehanine, the elven goddess of the dead: Kelemvor instructs his undead-hunters to ignore these creatures (distasteful as they might be), because the elven system is 'different', and these individuals are tied up in the fate of the Fair Folk, something which he has no desire to tinker with. Again, this was my take on it, and as much as it makes sense to me, it's equally possible that I just hand-waved it for expediency, and am trying to justify it to myself now.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2009 :  17:03:18  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So how would Kelemvor look at someone like a baelnorn -- a voluntary undead, but still one with a mission?

Ed, I'm adding to Wooly's question, since I'd like to know how Kelemvor would also view an archlich [which is, obviously, something more than just a lich]?

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Edited by - The Sage on 29 Jun 2009 17:08:45
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2009 :  20:09:44  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
I can't answer for Ed re. archliches, but I can confirm that the Knight of the Gate is quite correct: Ed, as DM, has during play (in response to pointed in-character questions) told us that "the elves see to their own" (meaning the human deities don't have jurisdiction over elven undead, and would ignore them; unlike bestial destructive undead, they are indeed "undead with a task/mission" and therefore not "best destroyed").
Off your posts go to Ed, of course, for his eventual responses.
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2009 :  20:19:03  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Oh, forgot to respond to Markustay's post: yes, Elminster is indeed a "do no more than is needful" spellhurler (though of course he sometimes, as in the famous fire-magic hurling scene in ELMINSTER AT THE MAGEFAIR, believes that an overkill demonstration is the best "needful" response to prevent ongoing troubles). More than once Ed has included scenes in his fiction about the true wisdom of the veteran trained archwizard being knowing when NOT to use power.
And longtime Realms designers, from Jeff Grubb onwards, will confirm that the governing design principle for Elminster in adventures is that he won't aid PCs if he need not (in other words, he won't do the adventuring thing and reduce them to spectators or sidekicks; only in the not-by-Ed scene in the Avatar modules where he's spell-dueling gods does he engage in spell battle in the presence of PCs). Ed used to portray El as a befuddled, fussy old man if PCs showed up at his Tower and tried to get him to do magics for them, or tried to bully or threaten him. Then he'd hurl a titantic, Shadowdale-shaking meteor swarm out over the meadow, chuckle and say, "Aha! Remembered it! That's fun; let's do it again!" (And he'd gleefully cast a second one, usually leaving prudent players shaking in their boots and hastily revising what they were going to have their characters try to do to him.)
love to all,
THO
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