| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
767 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 08:08:51
|
Ed and/or THO and/or others,
Inspired by both Hoondatha and Kuje, I just have to ask the following*:
The word "tumble" (in the "sexual intercourse" sense) has always struck me as cleverly evocative of the act. What are its different meanings in the Realms, origins and who would use it in what company and under what circumstances?
Thanks in advance for your replies. 
* Yes, I know I have exceeded my annual quota... |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
|
 |
|
|
Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 13:46:06
|
Ok, I know I'm a bit behind the times, but...
MYSTRA'S DEAD???!?!?!?!!!!?!??!!?!? *Cries*
I just discovered this and I'm thoroughly unhappy, to say the least...
Not that I ever intend on recognizing/acknowledging such terrible news, but why wasn't a new Mystra chosen like the one's before her? I mean, we knew that whoever was going to be the keeper of the Weave was not going to be eternal, so how come her power didn't pass on to some one else, like it did with Midnight? What happened to Elminster and the rest of the Chosen after this? Does one of them get to become god/dess of magic?
AZUTH KILLED BY ASMODEUS?!!!?!?!??!?!!??? *Cries harder*
...The office of Magister is no more, either?
I'll prolly play 4e FR just so I can ensure that Cyric and Shar will drown in their own blood. And Asmodeus, too...Yep, no diety/archdevil is safe from my char's vengence now. Gloves are off...
Ed, How did you feel about this? I mean, Dweomerheart just exploding, the goddess of magic being murdered in her own realm, and all the power of the weave becoming unraveled, laying waste to area's of Faerun?
...You gotta tell me everything is gonna be ok, dude...lol
By the way, just pointing out that I haven't recieved and answer to my first question yet. Take your time, though. Just a little reminder .
My previous question was: Did the Simbul and Szass Tam ever directly meet in battle in any cannon (Or any non-cannon lore that you know about) lore? And if so, where can I read about it, cause that'd be a heck of a read.
Thanks in advance, |
Edited by - Aerik DeVallo on 24 Mar 2009 13:58:38 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 14:05:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Archmagus Brandon
Ok, I know I'm a bit behind the times, but...
MYSTRA'S DEAD???!?!?!?!!!!?!??!!?!? *Cries*
I just discovered this and I'm thoroughly unhappy, to say the least...
Not that I ever intend on recognizing/acknowledging such terrible news, but why wasn't a new Mystra chosen like the one's before her? I mean, we knew that whoever was going to be the keeper of the Weave was not going to be eternal, so how come her power didn't pass on to some one else, like it did with Midnight? What happened to Elminster and the rest of the Chosen after this? Does one of them get to become god/dess of magic?
In a manuever that contradicts and/or ignores all prior lore, Shar somehow blocked the ascension of a new deity of magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Archmagus Brandon
Ed, How did you feel about this? I mean, Dweomerheart just exploding, the goddess of magic being murdered in her own realm, and all the power of the weave becoming unraveled, laying waste to area's of Faerun?
...You gotta tell me everything is gonna be ok, dude...lol
Keep in mind that Ed has to have a working relationship with the WotC folks. You're likely to get a far more neutral and diplomatic response than you may want.
quote:
Originally posted by Archmagus Brandon
By the way, just pointing out that I haven't recieved and answer to my first question yet. Take your time, though. Just a little reminder .
Join the crowd. Some of us have had questions in Ed's queue for years. I myself can't even remember all the questions I've asked -- though Ed does keep a list of all questions that he works from. Here's a relevant quote from the lovely Lady Hooded One, from three years ago (I keep this one handy, because it's one I have to use every few months):
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Oh, Ed knows that, all right.
His problem is threefold:
1. Total lack of time. Ed is actively writing or editing SIX projects (plus yours) right now, with another eleven sitting on his desk staring mutely at him, waiting. This means he just CAN’T go off into the basement (or the library of diskettes and Zip disks in his study, either), looking up older Realmslore. It also means he often has to drop everything to deal with emergencies (and the recent WotC layoffs have spawned a lot of those). Ed loves to answer your questions, but he’s as busy as the head of any major company or country - - without having any staff to support him. That means some of the larger-scope questions, or the really, really obscure points, just have to wait.
2. The minefield of constantly-shifting NDAs, and unfolding WotC and Paizo projects and articles Ed is aware of, but can’t publicly talk about. And doesn’t want to screw up. Many scribes ask about matters that a lot of Realms fans have wanted “cleared up” long ago. Other scribes ask about interesting things unfolding in recent books (e.g. the Shadovar). Still others ask about basics (agricultural practices, land-law). All of these things SHOULD be answered, and Ed wants to, but often other folks are already at work on answers, or MIGHT answer them as their novel or game sourcebook tromps through relevant real estate, or uses relevant NPCs. So Ed is duty-bound (and legally bound) to keep quiet. Sometimes even admitting that he’s keeping quiet will tip off Realms fans about something in the future that shouldn’t be revealed yet. So he waits…and waits…
3. Rules queries that shouldn’t be directed to Ed in the first place. You know, the “let’s use Ed’s opinion as a weapon in my ongoing argument about X” requests.
4. Questions about the gods, ditto. Yes, Ed created the great majority of deities specific to the FR setting. Yes, he detailed them, and provided spells for them. No, he’s never had the chance to put into print their prayers and rituals properly, or what daily life is like both for a humble priest and for an ambitious upperpriest in the upper echelons of church hierarchy. Yes, he wants to. No, he can’t move on this without WotC cooperation. And everyone, from other fiction writers to WotC designers to every FR fan, has their own, different - - often fiercely different - - ideas of what’s “right” and “true” about the gods. To Ed, most of this (arguing about the Dawn Cataclysm, for example, or Eilistraee) is just like arguing about the weather: fun (when it doesn’t turn nasty), but ultimately useless to the roleplaying experience (mortals can never know the truth, so the truth doesn’t matter: what matters is what priests and fiathful worshippers IN THE REALMS think). And so on. Yes, these are basics I’m reiterating, but it’s time to repeat them for all. Ed has a huge electronic file of ALL the queries not yet fully answered that have been posed in this thread. Not one gets forgotten, and Ed tries to answer one a day no matter how busy he is. So he’ll get to them, unless the gods take him from us first. Promise.
(No matter how lovingly I have to persuade him. And you know how lovingly THAT can be.) 
love to all,
THO
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 14:06:03
|
Let me help, as I was helped!
EDIT: Well, I see one of those helpful people I was tlaking about already answered a few questions better than myself.
Regarding Chosen: None of them have become a new god/dess of magic yet, and their status, besides what was published in FRCS, is unknown. Here is what I remeber is known:
Elminster hears voices in his head that he fears magic will release, due to ravages from the Spellplague. He no longer practices the Art, and has isolated himself, where others believe he is an insane hermit. He is a threat to no one as long as he does not cast magic. The consequences of this would be devastating.
The Simbul faked her death in 1425, and now lives in the Dalelands, in disguise, presumably caring and watching over Elminster.
Alustriel passed away (died a normal death).
Khelben gave up his life during the Mythal ceremony thing.
Qilue - beheaded by the Crescent Blade by Halistraa, along with Eilistraee, who was also destroyed.
Sylune - Used all her power to get rid of the dead magic field over Shadowdale, causing her to finally pass away.
Laeral, Dove, Storm - unknown. If I'm not mistaken, it was said that one of them had died (it wasn't revealed which one), but maybe I'm wrong.
Well, that's all I know and remeber. I'm sure other helpful people can help more. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
Edited by - Menelvagor on 24 Mar 2009 14:07:46 |
|
|
|
Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 14:13:41
|
I'm betting more precise information about the fates of the Chosen, and the "whys" of Mystra's death and the lack of a new deity of magic ascending, are all going to be firmly and heavily NDAed for now.
Not that this is a particularly bold or risky bet on ym part, mind you.
BB |
|
|
|
Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 14:14:44
|
lol, your the man, Wooly.
I understand Ed is a busy guy. I mean, hey, he's the creater of Forgotten Realms...THO said it all when he's like the head of a country.
Thanks for posting so promptly. I didn't expect to hear a response from Ed or THO that denounced 4e or anything like that, just an author's perspective.
And, yes, Shar is a greater diety, but doesn't Ao have final say so of who's who among the gods? Perhaps she struck a deal with him. Maybe she will now be the new goddess of magic and have absolute power over the weave and the shadow weave. Woe to all who practice the arcane...
That's just pure speculation on my part, of course.
Thanks, Mene. That certainly answered a few questions and was extremely helpful. Thanks for the info!
What is 'NDA'? |
Edited by - Aerik DeVallo on 24 Mar 2009 14:20:41 |
|
|
|
Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 14:20:42
|
Well, I'M betting you'll hear something out of Ed, soon, Archmagus. Though I suspect diplomatic words and invocation of NDAs will be involved.
And Ed has several times, over the years in this thread, said things akin to this: mortals in the Realms (and gamers in the real world) can't really be sure of what they think they "know" about the gods - - only about what priests and the gods (both of whom may be either lying or mistaken, and are always slanting things to cast their faith in the best and most important role) SAY is true or right about the gods.
So we may THINK Ao this and Shar that, but we can never really be sure . . .
And "NDA" stands for Non-Disclosure Agreement. Common in the game industry and other "intellectual property" business fields, like Hollywood. Someone signs a document with a company they are working for, as a freelancer or a staffer (usually if a staffer it's written into their employment contract rather than being its own document) that says they won't "spill the beans" to the rest of us about something that hasn't been released yet, until their superiors in the company say it's okay to talk about whatever it is. |
Edited by - Malcolm on 24 Mar 2009 14:23:25 |
|
|
|
Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 14:23:31
|
I see, Malcolm. Thanks for the imput.
NDA = No direct/darn answers? lol |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 14:54:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Archmagus Brandon
Ok, I know I'm a bit behind the times, but...
MYSTRA'S DEAD???!?!?!?!!!!?!??!!?!? *Cries*
I just discovered this and I'm thoroughly unhappy, to say the least...
Not that I ever intend on recognizing/acknowledging such terrible news, but why wasn't a new Mystra chosen like the one's before her? I mean, we knew that whoever was going to be the keeper of the Weave was not going to be eternal, so how come her power didn't pass on to some one else, like it did with Midnight? What happened to Elminster and the rest of the Chosen after this? Does one of them get to become god/dess of magic?
Ed has tackled this somewhat, but only briefly, in previous replies to concerns about the status of the Chosen in the post-Spellplague period. You might want to spend some time searching through the '08 reply file -- simply use the "So Saith Ed" URL in my sig to get you started.
quote:
Ed, How did you feel about this? I mean, Dweomerheart just exploding, the goddess of magic being murdered in her own realm, and all the power of the weave becoming unraveled, laying waste to area's of Faerun?
...You gotta tell me everything is gonna be ok, dude...lol
As Wooly noted above, it's worth keeping in mind that this really isn't something Ed can fully comment on. Non-Disclosure-Agreements and other aspects of his relationship with WotC may mean that whatever answer may be forthcoming from Ed, will be heavily influenced by these factors.
quote:
By the way, just pointing out that I haven't recieved and answer to my first question yet. Take your time, though. Just a little reminder .
My previous question was: Did the Simbul and Szass Tam ever directly meet in battle in any cannon (Or any non-cannon lore that you know about) lore? And if so, where can I read about it, cause that'd be a heck of a read.
Thanks in advance,
As I've said to some other scribes before, and as the Lady Hooded One states in that bit quoted above, it's not really necessary for you to re-post or remind Ed or the Lady Hooded One about previously asked questions. I mean, I've still got some questions outstanding from 2004, when Ed first started taking questions here at Candlekeep. But I know from previous comments that Ed can only tackle certain questions at a time. And with an ever increasing list of questions waiting to be answered, Ed must maintain a measure of focus.
And besides, the Lady Hooded One is a particularly vigilant lass when it comes to such matters here at Candlekeep, and has assured us many times that nearly every appropriate question asked to Ed has been passed along. If there's something she has missed, then it's usually only because of slight errors in posting technique here. And we Mods are fairly dedicated toward ensuring that rarely happens.
Rest assured, we're all on it! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 14:55:10
|
Thanks, Sage.
I'll be patient. As I said, there's no hurry. I just figured since this forum gets so many posts/replies, it may have been lost in all the hubub. Now I know different. Thanks for the reassurences, everyone! |
|
|
|
Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 14:56:19
|
| Regarding Shar nad the Shdow Weave after Mystra's death: currently impossible. Shar and Cyric miscalculated. They indeed planed to take control of the Weave after Mystra's death, but it collapsed, along with the Shadow Weave. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
|
|
|
Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 14:59:23
|
HAA!!! Take that you coniving vipers! (Cyric and Shar, that is.)
Thanks for the info, Mene.
Wonder what She and Cyric will do now? They have to be in danger from the other dieties seeking vengence, right? I mean, Selune herself must be pretty upset, not to mention Cyric's many enemies.
Is this kind of speculation inappropriate? I'd hate to be banned from Candlekeep. |
Edited by - Aerik DeVallo on 24 Mar 2009 15:00:59 |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 15:34:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Archmagus Brandon
HAA!!! Take that you coniving vipers! (Cyric and Shar, that is.)
Thanks for the info, Mene.
Wonder what She and Cyric will do now? They have to be in danger from the other dieties seeking vengence, right? I mean, Selune herself must be pretty upset, not to mention Cyric's many enemies.
Is this kind of speculation inappropriate? I'd hate to be banned from Candlekeep.
It isn't inappropriate but lets take it to another scroll and leave this one for Ed. :) A lot of chatter has been filling up his scroll lately.
Edit: Ha! Beat Sage by three seconds! Grin. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 24 Mar 2009 15:35:29 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 15:35:00
|
Any and all Realmslore discussion, regardless of edition, is welcome here at Candlekeep Brandon.
I would prefer, however, that any speculation not directly pertaining to questions for Ed be taken to other existing scrolls on the subject. Or, if you would like, simply open a new scroll for further discussion on the topic of Shar and Cyric.
It's just something I like to suggest, so that when I get to compiling the Ed-lore from this scroll, I don't have to shuffle through post after post of non-Ed-lore-related discussions.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 15:36:24
|
Will do, Sage. Your awesome
I completely undersand, and wouldn't want to have to go through all the unrelated hubub, either. Archiving is a hard job and I'm sorry if I've contributed to it's difficulty for you.
General FR Chat: Topic - Cyric and Shar's Most Foul Betrayal.
Look forward to hearing the views and opinions of any and all!
|
Edited by - Aerik DeVallo on 24 Mar 2009 15:47:52 |
|
|
|
gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 20:06:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In a manuever that contradicts and/or ignores all prior lore, Shar somehow blocked the ascension of a new deity of magic.
I have a different theory: that Mystra, knowing that it was time for change, allowed her own death to happen, while simulateneously arranging things so that Shar wouldn't gain her power.
Re:the Chosen: Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Laeral had died?
Gomez
|
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 22:29:37
|
It was mentioned in Blackstaff Tower that Laeral passed away, but no details. And you should check out my theory on Brandon's thread for Mystra's death...  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 03:46:52
|
Someone is fond of the 'Puppet man' from the TV show Heroes. 
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
A first level wizard can make themselves an essentially-permanent sex slave, especially if they pick someone good looking with the brain of sand. And since many places keep "apprentices" around far beyond the first level, the potential for trouble staggers the mind.
The Ministry of Magic steps in and stops any underage or un-authorized use of magic.
Oops.... wrong setting. 
Anyhow, without the use of magic (directly), this sort of behaviour goes on quite a bit, especially between master and apprentice, and even between apprentices. Thayans are known for it; apprentices - both male and female - are expected to 'perform' WHATEVER task is asked of them. I believe Calimshan has a reputation for this as well... but it goes on just about everywhere (including RW) at times. Young apprentices become enthralled with their masters, and mistake it for love, and unscrupulous types often take advantage of the situation, as do older students (who are more knowledgable) with younger students.
Occassionally, it is the 'victim' that is the actual instigating party - many a pretty female (and male) aspiring mage has gotten spells and magical knowledge out of older, 'doting' Sages. The Shadowsil is an excellent example of one such a 'pretty lass' (who managed to con both Elminster and Manshoon!) Lirael from Elaine's wonderful novels also used her wiles thusly (what? Shes a Drow!)
quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
Regarding Shar and the Shadow Weave after Mystra's death: currently impossible. Shar and Cyric miscalculated. They indeed planed to take control of the Weave after Mystra's death, but it collapsed, along with the Shadow Weave.
Shar got what she wanted, and no longer needed the crutch that was the Shadoweave. Mystra got both Arcane and Ubral energies from her two mothers, but she never bothered with the 'dark side' of her power. Shar took advantage of that situation by creating the Shadoweave within the shadow of Mystra's own Weave.
Now that Mystra's been 'shattered', the original power has gone back to Selune and Shar - Shar can tap into the Shadowfel directly, as can her followers now, and without the Weave around, there's absolutely no need for her to build another competing 'interface' again.
But I do agree Shar was foiled somewhat - she was trying to get ALL of Mystra's power, but only got her own back, so there is definately something more to the story.
Cyric was just her dupe - she was planning for him before he was even born. 
Ed's Answers: I have learned, through trial and error, that if you ask a question that is already founded in Realmslore and is NOT covered by an NDA and Ed (or THO) happens to already know the answer, then you get a fast reply (which is why I like to stick to geograpy). If it's something Ed has thought about but hasn't fully committed to paper, it may be awhile before you get an answer (because the man can create faster then he can write it all down). If it is something that he hasn't even thought about - and I doubt there's a lot of subjects like that - then you'd better hope it at least sparks his interest enough to put some though into it immediately, otherwise you may be waiting a LONG time. 
And because I mentioned "things Ed hasn't thought about", I had to think of at least one question that could possibly fall into that category -
Why do Liches bother to wear clothes?
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 04:52:59
|
Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And because I mentioned "things Ed hasn't thought about", I had to think of at least one question that could possibly fall into that category -
Known unknowns? Unknown unknowns?
quote:
Why do Liches bother to wear clothes?
Habit.
And on to a question... Ed, I'm not sure if I've asked this already, but what can you tell us (if anything, *hisses at NDAs*) about Yanseldara and Vaerana Hawklyn before they came to rule Elversult? |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
Edited by - Zandilar on 25 Mar 2009 04:53:40 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 05:58:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why do Liches bother to wear clothes?
Where else are they going to keep all their components and magical goodies, as well as such mundane things like quills and keys?
There's likely a degree of vanity with some liches, as well, though I'd not think this widespread. Nice, fancy robes cover up and make it easier to overlook rotting flesh.
Though habit is likely the best reason. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 06:17:11
|
I think Jean Rabe briefly hit upon this concept of liches wearing clothes in her Red Magic novel. Or was it "Red Ambition" from Realms of Magic? Then again, it could've been Szass Tam's entry in the Spellbound book? I can't recall at the moment. Anyways, I do recall some Realms-based thinking on this.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why do Liches bother to wear clothes?
Hilarity aside, I wouldn't mind also hearing Ed's thoughts on this. I recall a few tidbits from Van Richten as per the RAVENLOFT setting and why liches may still tend toward garments of a kind. But I'm curious about the Bearded One's take on it as well.
So, Ed, consider this question to be seconded.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 06:36:17
|
| I'd imagine that, from a completely tactical standpoint, most liches' vestments are very heavily enchanted. |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
|
|
|
Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 07:04:01
|
I've got a question:
Was Azoun a feminist?
Let me explain: During Azoun's rule, it seemed to me that many women came to powerful positions - appointed by Azoun. Myrmeen Lhal, Tessaril Winter, Gwennath of Tymora, etc. So, my question is this: Did Azoun appoint them because he thought women would be better at these posts than men, or because 'she's the right person for the job, and I don't care if she's a commoner and a woman'?
And let's not look at the hands on the reins after Azoun's death... |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
|
|
|
Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 12:52:15
|
Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
I've got a question:
Was Azoun a feminist?
(Oooooh, sorry, gotta stick my oar in here!)
While we could think of Azoun as a feminist*, feminism, as we think of it, does not exist on Toril.
I'd definitely put him in the category of "gynephile" or someone who loves women (in his bed, preferably ). Though I think he might also fall into the sex addict category too. (I use sex addict in the sense that he enjoys is and does it as often as he can, not as in really addicted and would be treated for it if he existed on Earth in the 'naughties**').)
quote:
Let me explain: During Azoun's rule, it seemed to me that many women came to powerful positions - appointed by Azoun. Myrmeen Lhal, Tessaril Winter, Gwennath of Tymora, etc. So, my question is this: Did Azoun appoint them because he thought women would be better at these posts than men, or because 'she's the right person for the job, and I don't care if she's a commoner and a woman'?
And let's not look at the hands on the reins after Azoun's death...
I don't think Azoun was fulfilling any quotas in his lifetime. I'd say that he, being a fair minded individual, would have appointed them because they simply were the best person for the job at the time. (Plus, Myrmeen Lhal didn't start out as Lady Lord of Arabel, her husband was Lord before her, and she kind of inherited it when he died - though if Azoun didn't want her there, he'd have kicked her out.)
As for Alusair as Steel Regent (with Caladnei, Laspeera, and Filfaeril ably assisting her in the background), she only became the regent because she was the last of the Obarskyr line (aside from Azoun V who was far too young to become the new king)... The ladies of the Obarskyr family got skipped for the actual Crown (Regent is not exactly the same as Queen, though it is a very powerful position).
I won't say anything about the travesty that is Cormyr in 4th Edition (a complete lack of powerful women in the canon***, nuff said).
* Azoun as a feminist is really a stretch if you ask me - if he was, he'd change the way Cormyrian inheritance worked to be fairer to noble womenfolk, for example.
** For those who don't realize what I mean, 2000-2009 is the "naughties".
*** I have not read anything new on DDI since the Cormyr preview article, so if that's changed since then... My bad, sorry. 
|
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
Edited by - Zandilar on 25 Mar 2009 12:52:54 |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 14:16:04
|
Hi again, fellow scribes. Ed has been busy busy busy, but he's also been reading the posts from this thread that I shuttle along to him, and has sent some Realmslore replies, to whit:
Hi, everybody. Markustay, liches wear clothes for a variety of reasons. Zandilar is correct when she says habit, GoCeraf is right when he says many lich garments are enchanted, and provide a way for liches to carry more "ready" magic around on their persons for use (particularly defensive), and Wooly is correct re. both clothing providing a means of carting useful stuff around and for reasons of vanity (partially concealing their wasted bodies). however, there's a "crowning" reason, too: clothing provides a psychological "anchor" for liches, rooted in human nature and in the writings of early lichnee-attainment procedures by long, long-ago mages, right down to Nulathoe (who believed that retaining clothing and footwear slowed the "inevitable decay" of the physical body of the lich). So a lot of them are afraid of falling apart faster, and believe that clothing, however ragged, rotten, or "abbreviated," somehow provides a binding for the body that slows its deterioration. That's alos why many liches LET clothing decay: although they may don new clothing OVER the old, rotting stuff, they seldom remove the garments they were wearing at attainment of lichdom, or donned right away after they "rose" as liches.
Remember, all: there are no trivial questions, only trivial answers. :}
So saith Ed. Who will have more to say soon, I'm thinking as I look at my inbox.
love to all,
THO |
|
|
|
Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 14:17:59
|
I did say I didn't mean a feminist in our world. I don't think he was a feminist; but I am trying to figure out if he believed in empowerment of women. Not changing the rules doesn't mean he wasn't for it; it probably means he couldn't. Heck, the Obarskyrs have enough problems without all the male nobles protesting to them.
And Cormyr is a place where the woman you marry is important, and should actually listen to, in contrast to many places in olden times, where a wife was just a decoration.
My last sentence was intended as more of a joke than anything, but I beleive Azoun's reign still had some effect on that. Laspeera was an important member of the court during his rule, Alusair could do what she did because she was highly respected by many, including her father, and Filfaeril held some power because Azoun had listened to her.
Regarding 4e Cormyr: Actually, there's hardly any information. Only the name of the King (Foril), and that his nephew is quite evil. Although I saw somewhere that there was a new Court Mage, Ganrahast, which mean Caladnei is gone. This would also probably be one of the shortest tenures as Mage Royal of Comyr. This may indicate what you spoke of, Zandilar.
But I have another question: are there any writing concerning the schism between Khelben and the Harpers, which led to the formation of the Moonstars? If not, could we have some information regardingit? I know what the schism was about, but how did the Chosen deal with it? Did it make them grow distant for a time? |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 14:30:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
But I have another question: are there any writing concerning the schism between Khelben and the Harpers, which led to the formation of the Moonstars? If not, could we have some information regardingit? I know what the schism was about, but how did the Chosen deal with it? Did it make them grow distant for a time?
The Schism itself happened in Cloak & Dagger -- the last 2E FR supplement, and in my opinion, one of the best. This is where almost all of the info about the Schism is.
Unfortunately, it was a plotline that was mostly ignored for 3E (though City of Splendors: Waterdeep did give us a Moonstar PrC). In fact, one of the designers is on record as saying he didn't like it, and that's why it was left alone. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 14:40:01
|
. . . And I was (ahem, of course!) right.
Menelvagor, Ed has STARTED to tackle your "Was Azoun a feminist?" query; he says he'll provide a much more comprehensive reply later, "when he can" (read: NDA trouble). Here's his start, however (please note, he hadn't seen your last, clarifying your position post when he penned this):
Hi, Menelvagor. Zandilar has pretty much "hit it" correctly in her reply. Here's the thing: "feminism," as we know it, is a concept unfamiliar to folk in the Realms. They know all about cronyism and corruption, and all about men who oppress women (as a fact of human nature, not as any sort of "syndrome" or necessarily "wrong for society in general" thing). Wife-beaters are considered bad, and idiots or crazies to boot (if you were a slaver, would you think highly of a slave-dealer who damaged the goods?).
Azoun DOES enjoy sex, as often as he can get it. He DOES enjoy the company of women, both spirited intellectuals flirting or disputing with him, and in bed (or on a saddle - - highly uncomfortable, that; I don't recommend any real-world experiments; trust me, I've made them for you :} or handy patch of ground, flat roof, whatever). However, he was by no means following some sort of equal rights or affirmative action hiring process; he was putting into positions the best people he thought he could find (and he was largely right in his judgements).
Remember, he can only go by the people he's gotten to know, well enough to see them under stress, test them, etc. . . . and that meant a lot of women, more than men. He needs people who are capable AND LOYAL, and he's satisfied himself that all of these women he put into positions were loyal to the realm (not necessarily personally to him, so he's not a self-serving despot). Male nobles tend to be hostile towards the Obarskyrs, and male commoners he has a hard time getting to know; he CAN'T take long periods "off the throne, in among the people in a magical disguise, getting to know the real people" without Vangey's help, and he doesn't quite trust Vangey, Vangey won't give that help ("I spent years suffering at your side all around the realm so you'd learn this already; I've DONE it, stay on that throne and DO YOUR JOB - - oh, and your crown's askew") [see CORMYR: A NOVEL for a glimpse of those years].
So he grabbed the best people he knew, and put them into positions he needed filled. Yes, he's admirably free of the misogyny many male nobles of his generation display some openly (and his appointments gained him a lot of quiet support and admiration from the noble wives of these same blustering, bullying male nobles, who saw his naming of women to so many important posts as good for the realm AND giving their daughters some hope for better, more meaningful lives - - as in, lives with careers in them beyond "breeding our own horses" and "painting or sewing or weaving splendid things").
Azoun would not have thought of himself as doing anything "for women," collectively. He would have seen himself as "doing the right thing," in each individual "hire," and we know from his statements on several occasions that he thought older generations of Cormyreans were idiots, who harmed the quality of life in the realm greatly, by "wasting" the skills and potential of so many women, noble and common.
In all of this, it should be borne in mind that most women of Cormyr, no matter how ambitious and capable, tend to be more subtle than the Alusair sorts: they rule by tongue and manipulation and forethought, more than by swinging a sword from a saddle and trying to "out-boy the boys." (Not that one approach is inherently superior to the other; I'm just pointing out that in our game adventure and fictional "radar," we would focus more on the action sorts, and less on the quieter, more behind-the-scenes manipulations.)
I'll post more about this when I get the chance. The short answer would be: Azoun would be initially bewildered if you asked him if he thought he was a feminist. Once you explained the concept, he would say he was not; rather, he was a pragmatist doing the right thing for the realm where so many predecessors had not because they were blind to the unused talents of so many women of the realm. Some observers would say that regardless of what Azoun thought, his actions could be seen as the largest steps yet in supporting feminist values (Zandilar, your comments re. inheritance are a larger subject I'll have to tackle in another post; every family has their own tradition of inheritance, and it's NOT always [but is usually] the male line - - and because of this, ANY monarch who tried to change those rules would have a REAL fight on their hands, because each and every noble family would view it as a personal attack on THEIR house), in the recent history of Cormyr.
That's all for now. As it happens, I'm busy writing a scene in fiction not set in the realms, where the poor male protagonist is very much being dominated by a woman. However, it's keeping him alive, so I suppose he shouldn't complain. :}
So saith Ed. Creator of the Realms, and deep thinker about many, many more facets of it than any of the rest of us have thought through.
love to all,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 25 Mar 2009 14:41:41 |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 14:52:47
|
Oh, and one little addendum, scribes:
I see from Ed's latest e-mail to me that he intends to soon reply to Christopher Rowe, Hoondatha, and Zandilar (Zan, re. your request for more "about Yanseldara and Vaerana Hawklyn before they came to rule Elversult"), but feels duty bound to revisit the noble families Daviot's been so patiently waiting for the Sorndrake details of, first. Then there's more of the Thunderstone and vicinity replies, those remaining orc "heroes," and so on.
No rest for the willfully wicked. 
love to all,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 26 Mar 2009 00:29:06 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 14:54:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
... and Wooly is correct re. both clothing providing a means of carting useful stuff around and for reasons of vanity (partially concealing their wasted bodies).
Vanity would seem to be partly Szass Tam's reasoning, at times, I would imagine.
quote:
... however, there's a "crowning" reason, too: clothing provides a psychological "anchor" for liches, rooted in human nature and in the writings of early lichnee-attainment procedures by long, long-ago mages, right down to Nulathoe (who believed that retaining clothing and footwear slowed the "inevitable decay" of the physical body of the lich). So a lot of them are afraid of falling apart faster, and believe that clothing, however ragged, rotten, or "abbreviated," somehow provides a binding for the body that slows its deterioration.
The "psychological anchor" bit is interesting. I kinda get the feeling that, given the overall long-term effects of lichdom upon a lich's mind, clinging to old garments helps the lich to retain a sense of self through physical memory.
Additionally, another consideration is the fact that time loses all meaning when embracing lichdom. Essentially, each day becomes largely the same for a lich, so alternating clothing and fashion styles may occasionally help to break up the monotony associated with "eternal existence." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Questions for Ed Greenwood (2009)
Topic Locked
