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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 19:43:56
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I am confused by this rule in the SRD for Arcane Magical Writings:
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)
Ok, so, if I am correct does this mean that unless the PC has X spell recorded in his own spellbook, than he cannot prepare X spell from a foreign spellbook?
Or can he prepare a spell from a foreign spellbook anyway, as long as the writing is deciphered and the Spellcraft check succeeds?
If it's the former, I've been doing spell preparation the wrong way for a long time, heh. If it's the latter then all is well.
Thanks.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 20:42:40
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Well as I understand it, the caster has to know the spell, having already learned it.
If the spell is unknown the spell can not be prepared, it can only be learned (at least the first time the caster sees a new spell) and then normally places the spell in casters personal spell book.
If for some reason the spell caster does not have personal spell book with them, I would still apply rule of learning a new spell from another's book, before allowing a person to prepare a spell from another's book.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 21:56:16
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| -I don't like the rules as are, and have my own way of doing things. A Wizard can take someone else's spellbook, and transcribe spells from it with successful Decipher Script and Spellcraft checks. The higher level the spell, the harder it is to understand, so the DC are higher. Differences is spellcasting methods- such as, in the Forgotten Realms "Southern Magic" as opposed to "Dwarven Magic"- would also bump up the DC. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 00:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I am confused by this rule in the SRD for Arcane Magical Writings:
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)
Ok, so, if I am correct does this mean that unless the PC has X spell recorded in his own spellbook, than he cannot prepare X spell from a foreign spellbook?
Or can he prepare a spell from a foreign spellbook anyway, as long as the writing is deciphered and the Spellcraft check succeeds?
If it's the former, I've been doing spell preparation the wrong way for a long time, heh. If it's the latter then all is well.
Thanks.
As the rule stands to prepare a spell from another spellbook that you don't have prior knowledge of you need to make a spellcraft check to do so. Just as if you were casting from a scroll if you were a rogue except it is easier since you already have training in the arcane arts, hence the use of just a spellcraft check. I think the DC is five higher then usual, but don't quote me on that.
That is how my DM and I dealt with the issue long ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I don't like the rules as are, and have my own way of doing things. A Wizard can take someone else's spellbook, and transcribe spells from it with successful Decipher Script and Spellcraft checks. The higher level the spell, the harder it is to understand, so the DC are higher. Differences is spellcasting methods- such as, in the Forgotten Realms "Southern Magic" as opposed to "Dwarven Magic"- would also bump up the DC.
That is an interesting take on things. With your permission mind if I borrow that concept? Just like to ask before I steal.
~Ghost King~ |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 01:19:10
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| -Go ahead. I don't think it's something that has ever come up in any of my games, but I've always found it silly that it's so relatively difficult to transcribe spells from scrolls to spellbook, or from spellbook to spellbook. I view Wizardly magic very akin to mathematics, and while someone from Japan and someone from San Salvador might not have much in common, math is the same everywhere. Two and two still makes four no matter where you go. It's getting around the different symbols, letters and pictographs that is the hardest part. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 01:36:06
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I see it as a balancing act for both in-game and story reason. For acquiring great cosmic power, it would make sense that it'd be real difficult, time consuming, and costly to continue to increase that power.
Otherwise, we'd have a ton of college-age wizards running around shearing off mountain tops and creating them into flying castles instead of elderly, bearded, pointy-hat spellcasters with decades (and some even have centuries) of experience under their belt.
But onto the topic, I am utterly confused because the text is insinuating that a wizard must have written the spell in their own spellbook before having the capability of preparing it from a foreign spellbook.
For example, my friend's necromancer just acquired a necromancer vampire's spellbook. He doesn't have Create Undead in his spellbook at all. But can he still attempt to prepare it from the vampire's spellbook by deciphering it and making a Spellcraft check? Or does he have to decipher Create Undead in the vampire's spellbook, copy the spell into his own spellbook, and then he is free to prepare the spell from the vampire's spellbook with a Spellcraft check? (which would make it completely moot at that point since, well, the spell is now in your OWN spellbook).
To make matters more confusing, there is an extra step involved when copying the spell to your spellbook. After deciphering, the spellcaster must then spend a day studying the spell and make a Spellcraft check. If successful, they can then copy the spell into their personal spellbook. (failure results in needing 1 rank in Spellcraft to attempt it again).
Why the extra step when copying but not when preparing? I assume it's because you must have the spell originally written in your own spellbook before attempting to prepare from a foreign spellbook. The only reason I can see a wizard wanting to do that is if he lost his original spellbook and finds another with spells he used to have written himself.
That's my guess, of course.
If only Sage Advice still answered 3E questions.  |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 02:23:54
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Thank you for the permission Dagnirion.
Razz, if you go by the rules, then yes you must first transcribe the spellbook/scroll into your own spellbook/grimoires. After that the other spellbook isn't needed anymore to prepare the spell because of you copying it into yours.
However, for story reasons I've always allowed wizards that gained possession of another wizard's spellbook, as long as they figured out a way to bypass the wards on them, to use the books with a successful spellcraft for each spell contained within. If they succeeded they were able to memorize the spell as many times as they wanted from that point forward in that book. If they failed, then they just were unable to learn it. If they got a crit 1 on a d20 it usually meant the wards were triggered, which usually spelled, pardon the pun, their doom.
~Ghost King~ |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 04:15:50
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| I've always looked at the copying rules in that each wizard uses their own 'shorthand' language to record the spells in their books, much like how D Vinci used to write his notes coded so he could read the quickly, but others would have difficulty deciphering them. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 05:32:14
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| By the by, anyone want to weigh in on the 'naming' of different spells? i.e. even though the Harpells call it 'magic missile', does everyone else do the same? |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 05:45:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I've always looked at the copying rules in that each wizard uses their own 'shorthand' language to record the spells in their books, much like how D Vinci used to write his notes coded so he could read the quickly, but others would have difficulty deciphering them.
Prior Edition rules support this concept. The lemght of how many pages of a spell book to hold a spell was level + d6.
Fireball could require more pages then improved fireball (or about the same depending on dice rolls).
The Vancian magic system required the arcane spell caster to understand the spell (to learn it) before that had any chance of casting it after planing to have that spell as an spell they were ready to cast.
Yes rules as written require a person ro learn the knowledge of the spell. Only once they knew the spell could they ever hope to prepare the spell for casting. 4th Edition does away with some of that system of magic, as far as it goes 3rd did as well with the introduction of the Sor that just managed to understand some magic and able to prepare what magic spells that they knew (with of couse the limit of how many spells known and how many of those known could be perpared).
The D&D magic system has evolved though the Editions. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 15:26:07
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| Page 173 "Mastering a Foreign Spellbook" from Magic of Faerun seems to imply that you have to copy each spell into your own spellbook, but it allows you to "take over" someone else's book. Basically, you need to spend a tenday plus 1 day/spell and make a Spellcraft check DC 25+highest level spell to treat the spellbook as your own. |
My DnD Links and Creations |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2008 : 12:50:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I am confused by this rule in the SRD for Arcane Magical Writings:
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)
Ok, so, if I am correct does this mean that unless the PC has X spell recorded in his own spellbook, than he cannot prepare X spell from a foreign spellbook?
Or can he prepare a spell from a foreign spellbook anyway, as long as the writing is deciphered and the Spellcraft check succeeds?
If it's the former, I've been doing spell preparation the wrong way for a long time, heh. If it's the latter then all is well.
Thanks.
My interpretation is that since you need to succeed in a Spellcraft check *each* time you prepare a spell from a foreign spellbook, you do not need to know the spell or have it in your own book. And, if you *do* know some of those spells and have them in your own book, you can prepare those spells without any check -- as long as you have succesfully "deciphered" the book (as per the rules in 'Magic of Faerûn', i.e. either with a Spellcraft check or Read Magic).
However, it seems that the rules according to SRD do not allow you to prepare spells you have not "learned" (i.e. any spells you do not have in your own book) under any circumstances.
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
Edited by - Asgetrion on 29 Dec 2008 12:55:07 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2008 : 12:57:06
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quote:
Originally posted by freyar
Page 173 "Mastering a Foreign Spellbook" from Magic of Faerun seems to imply that you have to copy each spell into your own spellbook, but it allows you to "take over" someone else's book. Basically, you need to spend a tenday plus 1 day/spell and make a Spellcraft check DC 25+highest level spell to treat the spellbook as your own.
Yes, this is the rule for "mastering" a spellbook I mentioned in my previous post. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Darkhund
Acolyte
34 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 00:45:34
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The way I always have it, is you just need to make a caster level check versus the spell, and you can prepare, as long as you share the same languages. For each language the other person knows that you don't, (say, Draconic), there is a 5-10% chance that they use that for recording their formula, with none using Common for it. So an elemental wizard might use aquan or ignan for their spells of that element, and an elf mage might use an elven dialect.
PCs can set their language its recorded in, while NPCs get random, or chosen by DM if suitable
Though, this does give a Druid/Wizard Mystic Theurge a huge advantage, as they can use Druidic, which means no non druids can use your spellbook. |
Edited by - Darkhund on 30 Dec 2008 00:49:06 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2008 : 03:19:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkhund
The way I always have it, is you just need to make a caster level check versus the spell, and you can prepare, as long as you share the same languages. For each language the other person knows that you don't, (say, Draconic), there is a 5-10% chance that they use that for recording their formula, with none using Common for it. So an elemental wizard might use aquan or ignan for their spells of that element, and an elf mage might use an elven dialect.
PCs can set their language its recorded in, while NPCs get random, or chosen by DM if suitable
Though, this does give a Druid/Wizard Mystic Theurge a huge advantage, as they can use Druidic, which means no non druids can use your spellbook.
-Don't you think that really trivializes Draconic, as in a "language of magic"? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2009 : 18:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Don't you think that really trivializes Draconic, as in a "language of magic"?
There are other things that have been published that "trivialize" Draconic. The Geometer class doesn't use Draconic at all, but rather geometric shapes. Runecasters don't necessarily use Draconic runes. I'm can't remember any more specific examples off of the top of my head, but I have read about other classes that have unusual methods of inscribing spells. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2009 : 23:13:08
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Don't you think that really trivializes Draconic, as in a "language of magic"?
There are other things that have been published that "trivialize" Draconic. The Geometer class doesn't use Draconic at all, but rather geometric shapes. Runecasters don't necessarily use Draconic runes. I'm can't remember any more specific examples off of the top of my head, but I have read about other classes that have unusual methods of inscribing spells.
I think the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exhaulted Deeds also added to the list of reducing the importance of draconic by the Words of Creation. The various npcs/pcs that could be created from those books that were casters could use celestial/abyssal/infernal as languages use to write their spells in, but I'm pretty sure their were a few prestige classes with arcane casters using that option.
~Ghost King~ |
Edited by - Ghost King on 02 Jan 2009 23:13:44 |
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Arcane Magical Writings --- Confusion in a rule
