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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Dec 2008 : 15:15:28
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I'm trying to get a fair idea of what year the sea captain Balduran returned from his epic sea voyage to find the New World, and founded the city-state of Baldur's Gate with his treasure from that expedition.
In Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate, Ed simply says that Balduran sailed in search of Anchorome "long ago."
The central part of the New World was discovered by Cordell in 1361. But the northern part of the continent, Anchorome, must have long been rumored to exist given its proximity 455 miles to the west of Evermeet. According to GHotFR, Evermeet was founded in -24,000 DR. Elves established their first settlements (a civilization called Keltormir) along the eastern seaboard of Faerun in -17,800 DR. Presumably, fables in Faerun of the New World should then have been very ancient.
Anyway, Ed suggests that Baldur's Gate could not have been extablished prior to 227 DR. In that year Orluth Tshahvur built a keep "among a nameless cluster of fishing huts" on the inlet where the River Chionthor empties into the sea, founding the shortlived kingdom of Shavinar. By 277 DR the fledgling kingdom is overrun by trolls and countless other monsters.
Has Ed ever mentioned when Balduran lived? Or when he sailed to Anchorome (on the first expedition)? Or upon his return helped build the port town's famous wall, launching it into a full-fledged city-state status?
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Edited by - Lemernis on 07 Dec 2008 16:44:49
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2008 : 16:16:12
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The earliest dated reference I know of is this one, on page 19 of Calimport:
quote:
-16 Year of the Poisoned Pens
The Plague of Scholars (Plague): All cities across southern Faerûn, as far north as Baldur's Gate; lethargy and heavy sleep leads to coma and death, some unknown agency poisoned vast amounts of ink and quills used by scribes, scholars, and business folk; 20% (11%).
This seems to imply an earlier date for the founding of Baldur's Gate, though it does contradict the other reference and could have just been used as a landmark.
Note that this is an error in the original pdf of A Grand History of the Realms, which lists it as happening in -52 (a simple error, since that's the prior entry in the Calimport book). Neither date has any entries in the print version. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Dec 2008 16:16:51 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2008 : 16:40:30
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Oh right! I forgot about the reference to that plague.
In light of Ed's info on Shavinar, maybe something needs to be ammended. Perhaps Ed might consider changing the 227 DR date he gave in his thread here to -227 DR. Or maybe we can interpret the reference in Calimport to mean as far north as what is now Baldur's Gate, but in -36 DR was merely a fishing village. (I.e, a landmark, as you say.)
Candlekeep was founded in -200 DR and would have been hit hard by that plague, one would think. But anyway, anyone using quill and ink was evidently at risk. So maybe even a fishing village could have been affected, if a scholarly type from the fishing village at the mouth of the River Chionthor made visits to the great library from time to time. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 07 Dec 2008 19:01:39 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2008 : 23:55:06
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Here's a bit from Krash [and Ed] on the subject:-
"I always had it founded in the early 300s DR based on this lore from Ed on Shavinar:
"The realm of Shavinar was founded in the Year of the Raised Banner (227 DR) by a local adventurer, Orluth Tshahvur (possibly-exaggerated bards’ ballads describe him as a “swift sword” who “won many blood victories” and was smart as well as deadly in battle), in an attempt to unite human steadings (ranches and farms) for common defense against marauding monsters, frequent troll raids, and outlaws cast out of more southerly Sword Coast cities.
Tshahvur built a crude keep near what is now Baldur’s Gate (and was then a nameless cluster of fisherfolk huts), lured a shipwright fleeing from Calishite persecution to settle, and established what was really a pirate port: he was ruthless with anyone who used violence against anyone else there, but otherwise “welcomed all and let anything pass.”
The place became known as Gaeth (the Thorass local word for “rivermouth” or “inlet”), the obvious derivation of the “gate” part of the name “Baldur’s Gate” today. Gaeth was home to perhaps 120 people (dwelling in fieldstone-and-thatch or wood-and-thatch huts, situated on three wandering dirt streets) when “Lord Tshahvur of Shavinar” died (in 242 DR), an iron-hard man worn out by almost countless hard riding and harder sword-swinging, as he fought trolls, trolls, and more trolls to keep Shavinar from being overrun.
Orluth’s son, the proud and pompous King Arlsar (chiefly remembered for his indefatigable wenching ways and his mirror-bright, gem-studded, ornate “show” suit of plate armour) inherited a kingdom that stretched from the sea-mouth of the northbank River Chionthar along the coast as far north as the Troll Hills, and “four days’ ride” east (probably 80 to 100 miles, as we moderns would reckon it). Arlsar abandoned most of his father’s hilltop forts (little more than ring-ditches around summits that sported barrow-like “weather shelter” chambers) as too expensive (along with the warriors who defended them; as they fell in fighting, they weren’t replaced), and during his short reign Shavinar shrunk - - under persistent troll and outlaw raids - - to less than forty miles across.
Arlsar was murdered by ambitious merchants (who’d begun to settle in Gaeth in some numbers, to carry on all manner of business too unsavoury or too highly taxed to be profitable “back home” in Calimshan and the Tashalar) in 256 DR, and the realm almost disintegrated in the struggle for power that followed.
A cabal of local families viciously poisoned and stabbed various outlander merchants to put forward one of Arlsar’s many sons to be king. The glib-tongued, handsome, promise-all Raulovan reigned for four months before one of the Calishite factions ended his pretty words forever - - but a wizard who’d settled on the coastal headlands had grown weary of all the strife, and started spellslaying claimants to the throne and the outlanders promoting them, clearing the way for Arlsar’s youngest son, sometimes called “Stonehead” for his terse manner and slow speech: Kondarar.
No one disputes that Kondarar was King in every sense of the manner: just, firm, and a tireless mountain of a man whose strength could overmatch most monsters in blade-to-blade battle, he almost single-handedly kept Shavinar in existence (just as his grandsire had done, by spending his days in the saddle, hewing trolls wherever he found them) from his ascension in late 256 DR to when it all ended in 277 DR, and Shavinar was swept away (Gaeth and all) by trolls and “monsters beyond numbering, all wandering in their own snarling bands.”
In short, Shavinar was typical of hundreds of short-lived realms in Faerûn, that have risen and fallen again down the years: they founder if the successors to those who establish them are not stronger - - or far luckier - - than their predecessors."
-- George Krashos" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2008 : 23:57:59
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As for Balduran, nothing has really been revealed about the man himself. You could try prompting Ed for more info, though. I'd be curious to see what he comes up with.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2008 : 01:03:39
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| Thanks, and good idea, I posed the question to him. Sounds like it is uncertain then until Ed answers. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2011 : 06:40:26
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(Casts Thread Resurrection!)
I believe the answer could be found in the Tales of the Sword Coast expansion for Baldur's Gate 1! I know the game series isn't considered canon (which is as unwise a move a management team could possibly make, but I digress), but if you look carefully, the game's writing has all of Ed Greenwood's "voice" all throughout; what I mean is that the 'way' the entire BG series storylines are written, I've only seen it before in works Ed has written wherein he has greater creative control than what WotC typically affords him (ie- Dark Warrior Rising isn't a Realms novel, yet those who've studied Ed's works would wholeheartedly declare that the book has Ed's 'voice' all over it, and not another writer; I feel the same way about the BG series, and thus feel Ed's the uncredited full author of the game series, juss like he's the uncredited author of so many Monstrous Manual entries, Planescape stuff and other Realms stuff).
SPOILER!!!!!!
This is the dialogue that happend between my PC & Kaishas Gan when I recently played that part.
*******
Kaishas: "Hello to you that do not belong. I greet ye, and ask your purpose to be here. We are wary of those strange to us, and some may fear your coming. Please assure my worry you are not here to harm."
My PC: "We will not harm you. Our ship foundered and we washed ashore on your island."
Kaishas: "Then you are as we, for our beginning was as yours. Long have we been on this home, but not always. The mothers of our great-grandmothers were from away, but traveled near and the depths swallowed their ship. Accursed cliffs below have sharper teeth than we."
My PC: "You were shipwrecked? How long ago? I have come looking for an ancient shipwreck."
Kaishas: "You have? How you know of this place? We are undisturbed for age upon age, but you know of our wreck?"
My PC: "A merchant ship sailed close during a storm and spotted it. It bears the markings of Balduran, a hero that went missing some three hundred years ago. A man named Mendas hired me to find it. His accent is not unlike yours."
Kaishas: "Mendas? I do not know this name. I had hoped... one of our kin left the home some time ago, and I thought he might have sent you. Selaad was his name, and he was our chieftain. I know not Balduran either. He was not among our founders; he never belong as we. The wreck I have not seen for year upon year. But know where it is I do."
*******
That she didn't outright acknowledge Balduran is besides the point (she has an agenda); those of her village did, as did her husband, who put PC & party on the quest (unbenownst to them at the time that he was from the place he was sending PC & party to). From that dialogue, we learn that Balduran left Baldur's Gate for the last time around 1068DR - this b/c the game takes place in 1368DR.
The lone conflicting data in the game is when the elven mage Dradeel, Balduran's Guide on his last voyage, says he's been trapped on this island for 500yrs. But as you converse with him, you find he's been badly unhinged, and in his circumstance, it's rather easy to lose track of time.
From what I gather, the things in support of Balduran having found his city around 1068DR are:
-That PC had the dialogue option to declare it; he/she was raised within the walls of Candlekeep, and being young & interested in adventuring from an early age, was surely interested in learning of the biggest city nearby, which was none other than Baldur's Gate. So surely he/she read about the city's founding & history, and kept it in mind, what with Balduran being such a successful adventurer.
-There's no canon source that effectively dispels this in print or in the game series.
-As I pointed out, all those who've studied Ed's 'voice' (as Elaine Cunningham says writers have a 'voice' in her August 30th 2011 entry on her website, here: http://www.elainecunningham.com/2011/08/30/tuesday-morning-musings-august-30-2011/) and have studied the storylines in the BG series, would all come to the conclusion of Ed being the true full writer of the BG series storylines - uncredited as he has been before, time & again.
-From Ed & BRJ's "Grand History of the Realms" & Garen Thal/George Krasho's lore that Sage shared a few posts before mine, we know that settlers have been in the Baldur's Gate region since way before 1068DR, even a thousand years before that time (and from all accounts, Balduran was a human, not an elf or dwarf with a 700yr lifespan that could be magically enhanced to live a few more centuries via Elven High Magic or something), and even identified the region as Baldur's Gate. However, there's no indication that they had the strong walls back then that Balduran's money had paid for, and thus set up the Dukes as the rulers. What's more, in GHotR, the entry under 277 DR says "Orluth Tshahvur establishes the realm of Shavinar [277] to the north of present day Baldur’s Gate in an attempt..." which tells me that yes, there were people there way back when, but it didn't become 'Baldur's Gate' until Balduran made it so, which the game alludes to being around 1068 DR.
Well, it's canon in my Realms. Who woulda thought the answer would be as such! As I was playing and my PC took this quest, I began doing internet research on when exactly Balduran lived (after not finding the info in my 2e FRCG or Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, or the published GHotR, or BRJ's original CK version of it; which is better than the published one in many respects, but I digress again!), only to find that there's no established canon answer (but did indeed find this thread! ), and then only to play the game further into the quest, and find the dialogue I shared here! |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 07 Sep 2011 06:51:10 |
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The_Silversword
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2019 : 09:43:28
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Anybody know what day exactly is Founder's Day in Baldur's Gate? Google has lead me here, so figured I'd ask. I guess its also called Returning Day? https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Returning_Day
No date actually given though, it's purposely kept vague so DM's can use whatever day they like? Gah! I hate that. Any one got a clue what day it would actually be? Murder in Baldur's Gate starts on this day, and theres festivities goin on outside so I', assuming sometime in the spring or summer months? |
I survived the Spellplague and all I got was this stupid sig. |
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Archibaldur Sigil
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2021 : 19:06:41
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#10024; casts Resurrection Bump! #10024;
AH! AHA!
Nice to finally have a probable date (around 1068 DR)!
Has any additional info come to light since?
How does one get in touch with Ed Greenwood? |
TARDIS |
Edited by - Archibaldur Sigil on 12 Jun 2021 19:12:27 |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
270 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2021 : 22:05:20
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From The Grand History of the Realms :
"865 DR Year of Flamedance
Sammaster meets and is befriended by Algashon Nathaire, a mage and priest of Mystra’s enemy, Bane, near or in Baldur’s Gate."
and
"931 DR Year of the Penitent Rogue
While traveling north with a merchant caravan hailing from Baldur’s Gate, Tyndal, the son of a merchant commoner, slays a group of lizardfolk near the site of ruined Morlin Castle."
The city thus exists at the turn of the tenth century. The city was therefore founded between the end of the third century (fall of Shanivar) and the middle of the ninth century.
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"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2021 : 01:27:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Archibaldur Sigil
How does one get in touch with Ed Greenwood?
He's on Twitter. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Archibaldur Sigil
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2021 : 01:54:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Archibaldur Sigil
How does one get in touch with Ed Greenwood?
He's on Twitter.
Ah! Thank you! |
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date of founding of Baldur's Gate
