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lelorien
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Nov 2008 : 04:26:36
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I just read the Moonshae trilogy and something that botherd me from the prologue of Darkwalker to the epilogue of Darkwell, was the word Ffolk (the name given to the population of the human kingdom).
How is it pronounced? And where did the author get the idea to use such an ugly name?
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2008 : 05:07:39
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They are the folk of the land, the people (take that, Tel'Quessir [I say sardonically]), and doubling the F lends that awe-inspiring numinous quality of "Ooo! It's spelled all exotic and maybe even a little bit Welsh-ish!"?  Just a guess based on what you said, and the fact that probably half the cultures of the real world traditionally call themselves "the People" (or something similar) in their own language. I'd pronounce it as "folk," just maybe with a slightly drawn-out F sound. |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
Edited by - Laerrigan on 29 Nov 2008 05:13:14 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2008 : 09:51:13
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The whole series as well as the islands are "clad" in Welsh terms. "FF" is pronounced like the 'f' in fine. The main castle, Caer Callidyrr, would in the Welsh tongue be something like /Kair Kathlideer/, the 'll' is a combination one has to hear to pronounce it correctly. A good example would be the town Llanelli (well known in the world of rugby), who sounds something like /(H)Thlanethli/.
As we all know ( ), caer is the Welsh (as well as other Celtic language's) form of Roman Latin 'castra' and means exactly the same, fortress, fort, citadel, castle.
So much for Saturday morning  . |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 30 Nov 2008 10:16:06 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36836 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 19:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
As we all know (), caer is the Welsh (as well as other Celtic language's) form of Roman Latin 'castra' and means exactly the same, fortress, fort, citadel, castle.
Oddly, caer means "to fall" in Spanish. |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 20:28:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
As we all know (), caer is the Welsh (as well as other Celtic language's) form of Roman Latin 'castra' and means exactly the same, fortress, fort, citadel, castle.
Oddly, caer means "to fall" in Spanish.
Does that give Spaniards a morale bonus when laying siege in Wales? |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
Edited by - Laerrigan on 30 Nov 2008 20:29:29 |
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lelorien
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 20:33:30
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| Nice one! ^^ Thanks a lot for the back up information. I know won't stop every time I see the word "Ffolk" and try to sound it out thanks to you. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36836 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 21:09:54
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| Another pronunciation... The name of the ubiquitous race of dark elves officially rhymes with "cow". |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 23:47:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Another pronunciation... The name of the ubiquitous race of dark elves officially rhymes with "cow".
Actually, now and how are considered some of the official forms of pronunciation regarding "drow."
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 01:35:19
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I always felt that Lloth should have remained [lahth] or [lowth] instead of [lowlth].
And I like how my cuban girlfriend pronounces Menzo better than the official version. She calls it [main,so.bear'AHN,sahn]. It's just sexier that way. :) |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 10:41:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I always felt that Lloth should have remained [lahth] or [lowth] instead of [lowlth].
And I like how my cuban girlfriend pronounces Menzo better than the official version. She calls it [main,so.bear'AHN,sahn]. It's just sexier that way. :)
Well, Lolth was always Lolth and only a spelling mistake saw Lloth making a short appearance on the scene. Going by Welsh pronunciation, it would result in /Thloth/. As for Menzoberranzan, it sounds decent enough in a German pronunciation, as does Myth Drannor. Always an "open A", not like what I have heard from certain American / Canadian game designers  |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36836 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 13:21:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Another pronunciation... The name of the ubiquitous race of dark elves officially rhymes with "cow".
Actually, now and how are considered some of the official forms of pronunciation regarding "drow."
Uh... Cow, now, and how all rhyme.
A friend and I once drove our DM crazy by getting on a rhyming kick with those words... What was funny was when he got fed up with it, and made like he was hitting us -- using the sound effect "pow"! At that point, my friend said "Ow!" and I said "Wow!".  |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 13:28:24
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"Drow" is a Scots word, a variant of "troll", and is variously pronounced to rhyme with "cow" or "snow". So when asked, I simply say it rhymes with "bow" and "sow". :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drow |
Edited by - Vangelor on 01 Dec 2008 13:29:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36836 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 15:30:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Vangelor
"Drow" is a Scots word, a variant of "troll", and is variously pronounced to rhyme with "cow" or "snow". So when asked, I simply say it rhymes with "bow" and "sow". :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drow
Well, for the version of the race used and employed in D&D, the rhymes-with-cow pronunciation is the correct one. That said, I only think of and use that pronunciation in discussions like this; otherwise, I pronounce it as rhyming with snow. I believe that's the more common pronunciation, though I've no data to back this up.
Of course, since they changed the skintone of the race to match artistic failures to properly depict them, WotC will likely relent and change the official pronunciation.  |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 15:42:19
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The first time I heard the rhymes-with-cow version was in BG2 when you first encounter Vicona. I thought it sounded bad, really, and I still do. It's probably because I'm french and no french word rhymes with cow, so I naturally read it to rhyme-with-snow. As for Lolth, I don't even try to make it sound as it is spelled. When we say it, it sounds more like "lot", damn your th.  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 16:23:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, for the version of the race used and employed in D&D, the rhymes-with-cow pronunciation is the correct one.
Less abstractly, it's how Gary Gygax and everyone at TSR, and Ed up north, always said it. I never thought of the other way before seeing it online.quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
As for Lolth, I don't even try to make it sound as it is spelled. When we say it, it sounds more like "lot", damn your th.
You're French-Canadian? I think pronouncing sounds that don't exist in one's native language is fun and healthy. And TH is historically an important signifier in fantastic names (see Patrice Louinet's observations on it in Robert E. Howard's work). |
Edited by - Faraer on 01 Dec 2008 16:28:26 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 16:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
You're French-Canadian? I think pronouncing sounds that don't exist in one's native language is fun and healthy. And TH is historically an important signifier in fantastic names (see Patrice Louinet's observations on it in Robert E. Howard's work).
You're right. Problem is, we are close enough to english (in fact, we are surrounded by english) to know how it's SUPPOSED to sound, so we know we sound silly. So when we are just between us, we usually say those words in the way we would say them in french (the TH ones I mean). Oh, and note that when I say "we", I mean most of us French-Canadians. I no way am I entitled to speak for ALL of us |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 22:51:19
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Matter of factly, the FRCS 1993 (p. 9) actually gives the pronunciation of drow:
quote:
Dark Elves: Dark elves, also called drow (pronounced to rhyme with now or how) or night elves, comprise the most sinister and evil segment of the elven race, ...
As for the variant of "trow" / "troll" given in Wikipedia or Webster's, I am hesitant to give that too much credit. Have spend quite some time in both, Scottish mythology and dictionaries, especially the Scots ones and not much came of it. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 22:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Another pronunciation... The name of the ubiquitous race of dark elves officially rhymes with "cow".
Actually, now and how are considered some of the official forms of pronunciation regarding "drow."
Uh... Cow, now, and how all rhyme.
I meant in terms of seeing now and how as the official [in the Realmslore] forms of pronunciation. As Zanan noted above. That's what I was referring to. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 23:00:25
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Okay ... I stand corrected ... it does indeed come from Scotland ...
quote:
DROW, n.3 A goblin, one of the “little people” (Sh. 1825 Jam.2; 1866 Edm. Gl.; 1908 Jak. (1928)); the devil (Ork. 1908 Jak. (1928)). Gen. in pl. [dr#652;u]
*Sh. and *Ork. 1830 Scott Demonology 122:
Possession of supernatural wisdom is still imputed by the natives of Orkney and Zetland Islands, to the people called Drows, . . . who may, in most other respects, be identified with the Caledonian fairies. [A variant form of Trow, id., q.v.]
-> trow
quote:
TROW, n.1 Also trowe, trouw. Dims. trowie, ¶trowling. Sc. (incl. Sh.) forms and usages of Eng. troll, a hobgoblin. [tr#652;u] 1. A mischievous sprite or fairy, a supernatural being common in Scandinavian mythology from which it passed into Sh. and Ork. folk-lore (I.Sc. 1825 Jam.; Sh. 1908 Jak. (1928); Ork. 1929 Marw.; Sh., Ork., Cai. 1973). Also attrib. They were called hill-, land-, or sea-trows acc. to their supposed haunts or abode. The water-trow is the Nyuggle or Shoupiltin, q.v.
*Sh. 1701 J. Brand Descr. Zet. 115:
Sea-Trowes, great rolling Creatures, tumbling in the Waters, which if they come among their nets, they break them, and sometimes takes them away with them.
*Sh. 1814 in Lockhart Scott xxviii.:
The trows do not differ from the fairies of the Lowlands, or Sighean of the Highlanders.
*Sh. 1822 S. Hibbert Description 525–6:
This deity, or water-trow. . . . The warlocks of Shetland communed with various demons, known by the name of Sea-trows and Land-trows.
*Sh. 1846 Fraser’s Mag. (Oct.) 487:
The Shetland trows are unerring in their archery.
*Ork. 1883 R. M. Fergusson Rambling Sk. 159:
Trowies canna tak’ thoo’ Hushie ba, lammie.
*Sh. 1899 J. Spence Folk-Lore 39:
Places that from time immemorial have been associated in the public mind with trows or hillfowk.
*Sh. 1916 J. Burgess Rasmie’s Smaa Murr (Iktober 28):
It’s no da kirk, ‘at da Trouws dreeds; bit da sköl.
*Ork. 1924 P. Ork. A.S. II. 38:
After a while he cried out that he was “on the back o’ the trow”. Then the “ould trow woman” dropped him.
*Sh. 1949 Scots Mag. (Jan.) 267:
The fern, which is the floral symbol of Shetland, the trows’ homeland. In the autumn, at Hallowmass, folk had seen the ferry-kairds being parted, and the peerie folk, or trows, coming forth on their nightly travels.
Combs. and derivs. (of trow(s), trowie): (1) trowie-buckie, a snail-shell; (2) trow bund, bewitched by trolls. See Bun, ppl.adj.1; (3) trowi(e), -y, adj., (i) pertaining to the trolls, having the appearance of a troll, believing in trolls, superstitious (Sh. 1914 Angus Gl., Sh. 1973), supernatural; (ii) sickly, ailing, unhealthy, as supposedly under the influence of trolls (Ork. 1825 Jam.; I.Sc. 1866 Edm. Gl.; Ork. 1929 Marw.; I.Sc., Cai. 1973), also in a weakened sense: puny, feeble, useless, worthless (Marw., Ork. 1973). Comb. trowie-like, ill-looking, having a sickly appearance (Id).; (4) trowie cairds, trows’ kaerds, fern fronds (Sh. 1914 Angus Gl., 1947 Sh. Folk Bk. I.81, Sh. 1973). See Caird, n.2; (5) trowie flaachts, summer lightning, wildfire (Sh. 1973). See Flaucht, n.1, 3.; (6) trowie girse, the foxglove, Digitalis purpurea (Ork. 1929 Marw., Ork. 1973); (7) trow(-ie) glove, -gliv, (i) a sea-sponge; (ii) = (6) (Ork. 1929 Marw.; I.Sc. 1973); (8) trowie knowe, a knoll inhabited by trolls, a fairy hill (I.Sc. 1973); (9) trowie spindle, the plant horse-tail, Equisetum arvense (Sh. 1947 Sh. Folk Bk. I. 81); ¶(10) trowist, an expert on the ways and spells of trolls, an exorcist of the power of trolls; ¶(11) trowling, an infant troll, a troll baby; (12) trows’ hadd, a retreat or habitation of trolls. See Haud, n., 6. and quot. under (4); (13) trows’ hool, -hul, = (8) (Sh. 1908 Jak. (1928), Sh. 1973). See Hool; (14) trow’s smookie, a design on Shetland hosiery (Sh. 1933 Manchester Guardian Wkly. (30 June) 519). See smookie s.v. Smook, v., 2. (1).
... and more here
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/snda4frames.php?xref=yes&searchtype=full&dregion=form&dtext=all&sset=1&fset=20&query=Trow
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Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 00:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I think pronouncing sounds that don't exist in one's native language is fun and healthy.
I agree, it can be fun. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36836 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 01:00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I think pronouncing sounds that don't exist in one's native language is fun and healthy.
I agree, it can be fun.
I tend to think the same way... I've often done that with coworkers, though there was one whose name I couldn't quite get. It was something along the lines of "Schptim". His wife was Vasilia, a sweet but shy girl. Another coworker, at another job, went by Nancy, rather than her actual name, Anayansi.
I'm also a bit of an otaku (not a Japanophile, though!), so I like the Japanese names. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 08:50:45
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It gets a bit strange though, if you on the one hand hear - as given above - an American pronunciation of Myth Drannor, while on the other these same designers give very non-Anglophon pronunciation guides for fantasy names like those of the Dwarven deities.
But honestly, I'd rather have strange pronunciations for fantasy names than encounter "inspiration-lacking" place- or personal-names in "Common", e.g. Weathercote Forest, Twinkle, Twig et al. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Pronounciation
