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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 22:57:50
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I should note that 4e had expat Thayan enclaves, mostly of Red Wizards who preferred being magic item merchants to being servants of a cruel Bane-worshipping lich.
Well, what I'm thinking of is members of Thayan enclaves that decide to break away from Thay entirely -- severing all connections to Thay, maybe even ditching the red robes. These would the Thayans that wouldn't go home, even if Szass Tam was thrown down. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2021 : 23:52:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I should note that 4e had expat Thayan enclaves, mostly of Red Wizards who preferred being magic item merchants to being servants of a cruel Bane-worshipping lich.
Well, what I'm thinking of is members of Thayan enclaves that decide to break away from Thay entirely -- severing all connections to Thay, maybe even ditching the red robes. These would the Thayans that wouldn't go home, even if Szass Tam was thrown down.
Yeah, I agree with this very much. In my idea of the United Tharchs, its more the leadership that wants to "recover Thay", and at that they're more interested in just ousting Tam. However, SOME of the tharchs, primarily the newly formed tharch of the wizard's reach, is more interested in destabilizing "modern" Thay since they're right next to it. Everyone else grew up outside of Thay (and frankly grew up in Abeir and most on continents that are far flung from Faerun even), and only have stories from their great grandfathers to tell them about it. Meanwhile, they've already got a new home where they grew up, so the interest of say red wizards in Lopango or Katashaka for "recovering Thay" is nil to non-existent.
However, with the idea of like Mulmaster being a place where a Zulkir relocates, I could see him organizing the enclaves of the vast (and there is one in many of those cities) into something of a trade union that exists outside of Thayan control. Moreso since the master of the guild of foreign trade disappeared sometime within the last decade or so, the enclaves are in a bit of a flux at the time of 5e. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 18 Apr 2021 23:56:09 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2021 : 01:22:28
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| Didn’t everyone in Wizard’s Reach get executed by Tam? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2021 : 01:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Didn’t everyone in Wizard’s Reach get executed by Tam?
Not that I've seen. They retreated and the Zulkirs went in to take on Tam in a prepared extradimensional realm when Tam got screwed over by his flunky who started the ritual without him. In theory they were still there, just lacking their prior leadership. Some would have moved on. Then my personal homebrew would return Laothkund and the surrounding territories from Abeir rather than it "having been drowned when all the water drained from teh inner sea"  |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Apr 2021 01:26:03 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2021 : 02:19:59
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| IIRC, the Zulkir's army got expelled from the Wizard's Reach in the novel, as the Brotherhood of the Griffon was part of that army. This was all part of the Zulkir's plans, as they wanted to attack Thay in full. However, that army was nearly annihilated during their fight against the Thayan forces at the battle of Tyraturos (the battle against that golem that had So-Kehur's brain). The Brotherhood barely survived, and they were the lucky ones, so the surviving Zulkir's forces aren't a threat to anyone… at least in the 1478-1480 period. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2021 : 05:21:27
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Worth sharing some quotes from the FRCG:
quote:
Red Wizards were once purveyors of magic items across Faerûn. However, civil war and the Spellplague spelled the end of Thay as a mercantile power. Where the Red Wizards were unpopular, the upheaval left their enclaves open to attack and destruction. Luckier Red Wizards were often cut off from their homeland. Many decided to stay abroad rather than return to a Thay ruled by Szass Tam.
The people of Thay still refer to the arcanists among them as Red Wizards, and only such mages are allowed to wear red within Thay. But a small confederacy of magic- item dealers calling themselves Red Wizards still exists as a trade concern. This organization is most powerful in the major coastal cities of the Sea of Fallen Stars, as well as in the Moonsea region—especially Mulmaster. It enjoys no protection from Thay. Most non-Thayan folk now equate “Red Wizard” with magic merchants rather than with Szass Tam’s sinister nation.
So those expatriates are canon, and apparently well-enough liked.
quote:
Exiled zulkirs, former wizard- rulers, have appeared in the already Thay-influenced Wizard’s Reach. As a result, Aglarond has been forced to recognize that Thay’s presence (expatriate or not) isn’t going to fade anytime soon. The chronic irritant of Thay galled Aglarond’s newly formed Simbarch Council beyond reason. The nation raised armies and took the fight to the exiled zulkirs. The war was long and fierce, and Aglarond suffered much. Having defeated the Aglarondan advance, the zulkirs-in-exile returned to Thay to proclaim their victory. The Thayan Regent, Szass Tam, rewarded them only with death. The zulkirs left behind admin- istrators and soldiers in the Wizard’s Reach, but in the chaos and confusion that followed the rulers’ deaths, Aglarond declared renewed sovereignty over the area. It remains to be seen whether the Thayan remnants will gainsay the Simbarch Council’s decla- ration without their former leaders.
So unless I’m misreading this, Wizard’s Reach is Aglarondan-held in the era.
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2021 : 12:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Worth sharing some quotes from the FRCG:
quote:
Red Wizards were once purveyors of magic items across Faerûn. However, civil war and the Spellplague spelled the end of Thay as a mercantile power. Where the Red Wizards were unpopular, the upheaval left their enclaves open to attack and destruction. Luckier Red Wizards were often cut off from their homeland. Many decided to stay abroad rather than return to a Thay ruled by Szass Tam.
The people of Thay still refer to the arcanists among them as Red Wizards, and only such mages are allowed to wear red within Thay. But a small confederacy of magic- item dealers calling themselves Red Wizards still exists as a trade concern. This organization is most powerful in the major coastal cities of the Sea of Fallen Stars, as well as in the Moonsea region—especially Mulmaster. It enjoys no protection from Thay. Most non-Thayan folk now equate “Red Wizard” with magic merchants rather than with Szass Tam’s sinister nation.
So those expatriates are canon, and apparently well-enough liked.
quote:
Exiled zulkirs, former wizard- rulers, have appeared in the already Thay-influenced Wizard’s Reach. As a result, Aglarond has been forced to recognize that Thay’s presence (expatriate or not) isn’t going to fade anytime soon. The chronic irritant of Thay galled Aglarond’s newly formed Simbarch Council beyond reason. The nation raised armies and took the fight to the exiled zulkirs. The war was long and fierce, and Aglarond suffered much. Having defeated the Aglarondan advance, the zulkirs-in-exile returned to Thay to proclaim their victory. The Thayan Regent, Szass Tam, rewarded them only with death. The zulkirs left behind admin- istrators and soldiers in the Wizard’s Reach, but in the chaos and confusion that followed the rulers’ deaths, Aglarond declared renewed sovereignty over the area. It remains to be seen whether the Thayan remnants will gainsay the Simbarch Council’s decla- ration without their former leaders.
So unless I’m misreading this, Wizard’s Reach is Aglarondan-held in the era.
Yep, Aglarond "claims" the area. Thay doesn't encroach it. Aglarond hasn't wiped them out. They still exist. As stated, my homebrew would have Laothkund returning, and while in Abeir it will have taken on "red wizards".
To note, my view of the returning city Laothkund and other surrounding cities (Lasdur, Taskaunt, Tilbrand, Teth.... forget which ones offhand would have also have gone to Abeir, would have to look at a map) is not one of "these guys are Thayans". Its actually that they accepted a magocracy (which the wizard's reach was under a magocracy under the rulership of the League of Samathar before Thay). This returning version of Laothkund was a large city with ties to a rebuilt city of Peleverai down in the Shaar (where a large number of other humans congregated after fleeing Unther, Chondath, Chessentan, and shining south cities that wholly or partially transferred to Abeir). Laothkund became a kind of "satellite" city for them with a significant population. Its population was composed of its own people, plus some fleeing under the leadership of their king Hercubes Jedea who fled in exile from Mordulkin. In addition, the former leader of the League of Samathar was released from an imprisonment spell as a result of the spellplague and began leading the city while on Abeir.
Meanwhile on Toril, after the death of Nevron, Zulkir of Conjuration, an efreeti priest of Kossuth actually brought another former Zulkir of Conjuration back to life... Sabass of Thay... because he NEEDED him for something and now with Nevron gone it wouldn't be a fight for the Zulkirship. Sabass is NOT your typical Zulkir. He was the leader of the Researchers faction in Thay during the 1e era, and he became Zulkir AFTER the salamander war was caused by another zulkir of conjuration who died and was deposed BEFORE the 2e Spellbound boxed set (so we never SAW him in his role, we only have records of what he was like prior to becoming Zulkir). I view Sabass as a calming influence over the expatriates red wizards in Escalant who could hold them together to some degree.
In addition to all this, we never actually see Zulkir Lallara Mediocros die AND we have that Zulkir Lauzoril "died" because he "stepped off a cliff" which is pretty hard to believe. So, my assumption is that it simply removed him from the battle for a while. He and Lallara were then entrapped in the "created world" until the sundering "frees" them.
So, all of this is to say, you have a group of returning folks who have heard for a century bogeyman stories of Szass Tam, as well as some Thayan expats who have been living in his shadow for a century. They transfer back, and as a result, they're now "in the line of fire" and essentially decide to try and change things. Meanwhile, within Thay itself, its noted that there's factions that are working against Tam in many of the adventures at the end of 4e. So, this group might INITIALLY work together, and maybe they end up recovering the lower half of the country or something. At some point in the future (which may take a decade or two mind you), they'll start to factionalize if the greater threat of Tam goes away.
I had started writing up some of this history a while back, but in it I had much different views I believe of Cimbar and Soorenar (i.e. I let the concept spread possibly too far). Still, if you are interested, here's the concept I had going then... and I may change bits. I've also vastly shrunk Peleverai's influence to a smaller area of the Shaar. I've got a whole story line about how there's two Lauzorils because ONE was in Toril, and ONE is a clone of Lauzoril that was awakened by a god in Abeir because his daughter served as the god's avatar in order to get his phylactery. So, the two Lauzoril's have had vastly different lives for a century (one with his family and loved ones, the other without).
In 1487 DR, Zulkirs Lauzoril Tavai and Lallara Mediocros suddenly reappeared and returned to the city of Escalant, blaming their nine year hiatus on the collapsing of an unstable demiplane. They found their former red wizard subjects in disarray. They quickly set themselves to the task of taking control of the city again, and after killing those who were foolish enough to stand in their way, their fellow red wizards soon accepted their command again. Their power was much diminished however, for without effective leadership, many of the red wizards of Escalant had either died in struggles for power or left seeking a new life. However, they found a Zulkir from a century past sitting in the seat of conjuration, for apparently Sabass of Thay, former Zulkir of Conjuration and leader of the Researchers political party, had returned to life somehow a few years following the “disappearance” of Zulkir Nevron.
A few days later, the nearby city of Laothkund which had supposedly been totally drowned beneath the waves of the Alamber sea taking a large part of the Wizard's Reach coastline with it, suddenly reappeared. Word also spread that many ruined and drowned cities of Chessenta, Unther, and Mulhorand had reappeared, but their populations had often changed noticeably. The nearby Chondalwood which had been a plagueland began to stabilize. The Underchasm had disappeared and a portion of the dwarven great rift had returned.
What was more surprising though was that the city of Laothkund had returned and was being led by red wizards. As the reports came in, it seemed that many of these returned places held red wizards. Lauzoril, Lallara, and Sabass, along with their own hastily formed retinue of soldiers and red wizards, soon visited the city of Laothkund, where they were escorted to meet Samathar Dulsaer, Aulkir of Transmutation of the tharch of Peleveran, and Hercubes Jedea, Aulkir of Evocation and King-in-exile of Mordulkin. While the three zulkirs were astonished to find the founder of the League of Samathar alive and well, nearly five centuries after his disappearance and its fall, it was in fact the citizens of Laothkund who were most bewildered by the visit. It soon became apparent why when they were brought into a private room and images began to appear in several crystal balls. Gradually the faces of many red wizards begain to appear. Many of the faces were ones that they had presumed dead, such as Zulkir Yaphyll Sirtula, Zulkir Mythrell'aa, and the “First Princess of Thay” Dmitra Flass. To Lauzoril's great joy, his two daughters, Mimuay and Nyasia, whom he had not seen for over a century were still alive, and moments later came the confusion as Lauzoril saw himself walk up and put his arms around his two daughters.
For Lauzoril, the act of seeing himself somewhere else immediately set off warning bells. Thoughts of shapeshifters, illusions, and other deceptive uses of magic filled his head. Thus, it was that he was surprised when his other self actually spoke first by saying, “Well, this is interesting.... apparently we finally have the answer to if the god of necromancy CAN duplicate a soul in separate timestreams. Either that, or I am actually going insane as some predicted would happen if we ever met. Either way, alavairthae, friend... or maybe I should call you brother? What exactly does one call an awakened clone of oneself when the two finally meet after a century apart, that is of course if the natural insanity doesn't kick in? Perhaps we should meet in private to discuss the activities of the past century, as I'm sure you'd love to get reacquainted with our daughters. They've both turned into such cherished treasures this past century, and Nyasia I can tell already would just love to chatter your ears off. Oh, and of course Lallara you are welcome as well, as I'm sure you and Dmitra would enjoy discussing past times. You should bring along that old goat Sabass as well I guess.”
Thus it was that the three Zulkirs found themselves down in the city of Upper Peleveran in the eastern Shaar, built atop the cliff's edge of the Landrise gorge where the reborn Cliffside City of Peleverai had been reestablished. Over the next few weeks, the story of the transfer to Abeir and subsequent involvement of the gods of magic in the saving of the red wizards, and the involvement of the red wizards in the saving of the gods in kind, was relayed. The story of the destruction of many of the cities of western Chessenta, and the need to expand in an environment surrounded by the forces of Karshimis the Tyrant, led into the story of their migration south into the eastern Shaar to the ruined city of Peleverai. They also relayed the negotiations that created an alliance between multiple remote trade enclaves, and even a hidden Netherese Flying Enclave amongst the Tears of Selune, to eventually form a new kind of Zulkirate known as the United Tharchs of Toril. While the tharch of Peleveran is perhaps its greatest tharch, there is no doubt that the majority of the strength of the conglomerate lay across the seas on the far flung continents of Maztica, Anchorome, and Katashaka.
Over the few months, the two groups shared much of what had happened over the past century on both worlds, but there was always a tension about which Lauzoril would remain Zulkir. It was actually the two Lauzoril's that worked this out between themselves, for they agreed to share the votes of an Aulkir and a Zulkir between them in national matters, but that in local matters to a tharch, each would be treated as a full Zulkir. This of course was dependent on the formation of a new tharch along the Wizard's Reach combining the power of the cities of Escalant and Laothkund. It was also agreed that some of the resources, including entire cities, of the tharch of Peleveran, would transfer their leadership to this new “Tharch of the Wizard's Reach”. In addition some red wizards of Escalant would take up roles of leadership. With all the upheaval it was agreed that rushing this transition could lead to disaster, and thus the transition into fully-fledged tharch has been being negotiated now for the last three years, and has only been finalized in the last few months.
In all, it looks like the Tharch of the Wizard's Reach consists of the cities of Laothkund, Escalant, Cimbar, and Soorenar, as well as the smaller villages of Tilbrand, Lasdur, Teth, and Taskaunt. However, it plans to expand, and these expansion plans are also what has taken so long to form this new Tharch. For instance, Aulkir Samathar wants to take over the city of Erebos, for it has become a symbol of Tchazzar's remaining might, and he would see all trace of the dragon turned god who imprisoned him destroyed. Meanwhile, Aulkir Hercubes Jedea and the entire Jedean clan would like to recapture their home city of Mordulkin, which is currently held by genasi once of Shyr. The Chessentan city of Toreus, meanwhile, has had its red wizard enclave infiltrated by Zulkir Lauzoril of Escalant, and many of its red wizards are helping with the local criminal organizations to hire pirates, mercenaries, and merchants to aid the capture of all of Mordulkin, Toreus, as well as the holdings around Watcher's Cape, including the mental subjugation of the heads of the Crimson Sea Maritime Priakos. But even though the ruling mages plot to seize new cities, the inhabitants of some of these cities, particularly Cimbar and Soorenar, do not desire being ruled by an even closer magocracy, and there is some whispering that they will return to local rulership much as their sister city of Akanax did several decades past. If they do so, some think that this may show weakness to their nearby Thayan neighbor, and so some red wizards recommend shoring up their own local defenses, especially now that Szass Tam sees a growing threat directly on his border.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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If the Realms were yours...
