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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 05:07:00
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What do you get when you cross Dark Sun with the wonderful Sea of Fallen Stars book? Well, in my case, some serious thoughts on the durability of steel.
Some background: I'm setting up a mystery for my Dalelands Harper PC's to solve: a village in Harrowdale has way too much money. They're building roads and thick stone houses, and importing way more than their (unchanged) farming exports can possibly explain. I'm going to be throwing as many false clues around as I can think of, implicating that they might be smuggling for the Zhents in Daggerdale, the pirates in Scardale (this is mid-1360's DR), fiends in Myth Drannor, but want the truth to be something different: they're serving as surface agents for a merchant family in Selu'Maraar.
Thinking about what could be changing hands got me thinking about steel weapons, which was rather important to a recent Dark Sun game I was a player in. To cut a long story short, I'm trying to figure out how long it would take a steel weapon (a spear head, or a short sword, for instance) to be fatally weakened by rust, and how long to rust away completely. Considering some of the pictures I've seen of the Titanic, I'm guessing not that long (at least from an elven point of view), but I was hoping someone more knowledgeable might help.
My current idea is that Selu'Maraar lost most of its steel weaponry during the Eleventh War, either on the battlefield, or because with all the distractions they didn't care for the reserves well enough and their armories rusted. But I'm wondering how long that process might take.
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Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 06:02:50
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RL physics (iron based metals):
- Rust needs both oxygen and humidity ->> in very dry climates (deserts) you dont have rust (I think the limit is 60% relative humidity).
- The Titanic lies deep down and the speed with which it rusts is slower due to the lack of oxygen, even though it is fully immersed in water.
- As long as a weapon is cared for it is unlikely to be weakened too much by rust; it would be more likely to become unuseable because you had to sharpen it (and thus taking away a bit of material) for too many times. Even if the individual blade becomes useless it could be melted down together with others and made into a new one.
- Iron ore does NOT come as pure iron, but rather as iron oxide, so there needs to be the knowledge how to turn the oxide into pure metal. That way you rust only makes something useless if your culture does not have that knowledge or the resources for the process (mostly coal).
- Really fast corrosion happens close to a salty and wet atmosphere and it could weaken weapons that arent cared for in a year or two. Water is a basic requirement for life, but you might add a flooded weapons storage that no one bothered to check / clean up as a factor in increasing the speed they corroded. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 06:30:12
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Thanks, that's interesting. Selu'Maraar is a sea elven nation, lying in later 150-240 feet in depth, and it's explicitly stated in Sea of Fallen Stars that no one (short of a very small, and completely unknown, colony of malenti) know how to work steel. So it's maintain what you've got, or lose it.
I'm assuming that, given steel's superiority over coral or bone, the races of Seros would have created some sort of oil-based protection for their weapons, and that as long as the steel is treated regularly, and after each battle, it will last about as long as it would on the surface. It's only when they aren't taken care of properly (like in the aftermath of a war), that they'd degrade, but I wasn't expecting a time frame of a year or two. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 13:51:57
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There are also enchantments and treatments that can be done to prevent rust. Blueshine and everbright prevent rust; both are described on page 59 of the formerly suppressed ( ) work Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, which is free on the Wizards downloads page. That same book also mentions a gemstone, crown of silver, that when powdered and applied to ferrous metals prevents rust (page 39). |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Nov 2008 20:24:29 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 19:49:50
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I realize that, Dagnirion, I'm just trying to get a base range. Are we talking months, years, decades? Give me a ballpark, and I can go from there. The problem was I didn't even have the ballpark. For that matter, Selu'Maraar isn't storing their steel in water any more; after the fiasco they went to the trouble of creating several subsea air-filled caverns to house what little steel they still have. Unfortunately, they haven't had much luck in getting more in the intervening years.
And I thought about the weapon treatments, but that's not happening at the moment. After all, this is a village of about 100 people, they don't have the people to do everbright. They don't even have a weaponsmith, they're actually importing them from Mulmaster (and to a lesser extent, Glen) and reselling them. They'd love to upgrade to everbright, but that would be some time in the future. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 20:23:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I realize that, Dagnirion, I'm just trying to get a base range. Are we talking months, years, decades? Give me a ballpark, and I can go from there. The problem was I didn't even have the ballpark. For that matter, Selu'Maraar isn't storing their steel in water any more; after the fiasco they went to the trouble of creating several subsea air-filled caverns to house what little steel they still have. Unfortunately, they haven't had much luck in getting more in the intervening years.
And I thought about the weapon treatments, but that's not happening at the moment. After all, this is a village of about 100 people, they don't have the people to do everbright. They don't even have a weaponsmith, they're actually importing them from Mulmaster (and to a lesser extent, Glen) and reselling them. They'd love to upgrade to everbright, but that would be some time in the future.
Well, there's also that gemstone I mentioned. I forgot to complete the sentence, but it also prevents rust. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 00:04:26
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If you need one, stick a creepy old tower with a creepy old alchemist somehwere in the woods nearby Harrowdale (but not too close), and say that the villages provide him with neccessities (food, firewood, perhaps occassionally 'companionship', ettc...) in exchange for him making quantities of Everbright for them. That complicates the plot, but in a good way, because now your PCs can find the villagers sneaking off intto the forest with loaded wagons and coming back with a couple a chests, thus deepening the mystery.
Never feel the lore or even RW chemistry and physics are a limiting factor - work with it and work around it, and you'll find things get more interesting.
Oh... and I'd make the alchemist a Gnome (one of those weird ones with the candles in his hat (like This Guy), who just happens to be working with some forest gnomes (he's a Tinker-type), or rather acting as their benefactor, after some Cormanthor Drow chased them from their homes and stole all their food and supplies (once again explaining away the need for all that stuff by the 'lone' creepy alchemist). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Nov 2008 03:49:37 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 00:11:17
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Good point, Wooly. However, this is more meant for backstory: describing the disaster that happened back in the 900's DR when Selu'Maraar originally lost their steel. Having been burned (so to speak) once, they've adapted and won't make the same mistake again. But I wanted to get an idea how quickly it could happen for when/if my players talk to sea elven characters. In the future, Selu'Maraar would absolutely love any of those three anti-rust choices, but for the moment they're just working with normal steel.
This is made a bit more difficult by the fact that the sea elves are for all intents and purposes smugglers. I've increased Selu'Maraar's already-stated paranoia and isolation and turned it into essentially a bunker state. The Coronal is certain everyone else is going to unite against them, and he's outlawed contact with any outside entities, including the surface. This merchant has put her life on the line to import surface products (primarily glass, pottery, steel, and small art objects and curios), both to make money and peak the curiosity of the general populace. The military's figured out what's happening, and they're quietly leaning on the bureaucrats and secret police not to notice because it's getting them steel weapons. But it means no one can throw the kind of support and money at the problem that could, for instance, bring in everbright weapons by the crate from Glen. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 23 Nov 2008 00:12:55 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 00:17:54
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Markus: That's an interesting idea, though I think I'd rather go the route of the Harrans convincing some dwarves to settle in the town itself. I'll keep it in mind, since for the moment it's still in the future.
But when you think about it, all this talk of everbright is actually somewhat beside the point. The sea elves certainly don't know about it, and the villagers have an incentive to not provide it: repeat customers. Non-everbright weapons will eventually rust, which will mean continued demand at levels above normal wear and breakage.
Now, these are good, honest people, who would probably take it as neighborly to provide everbright, if it's within their power. For the moment, I'm saying that it isn't, though that's something the PC's might be able to help out with. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 04:04:36
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Perhaps the Sea-Elves themselves have a special kind of shell (that only they can get, because it's very deep), that acts just like the gemstone Wooly mentioned (thus duplicating the effects of Everbright - I think Sea-Elves MUST have something akin to this). They could just be giving this to the villagers to use on the weapons.
The other thing is that surface Elves grow a certain type of crystal, which they can train to form into various magical objects, including weapons. These crystal weapons should be available to Sea-Elves, I would imagine, since there's no reason I can think of why the crystal can't be grown underwater.
Of course, that just throws a monkey wrench into your plans, so just ignore it.
BTW, as long as we were speaking of 'twists' in that other thread - why not have the Sea-Elves turn out to be Malenti ? They'd be fooling the villagers, who really think they are helping Elves, when in-fact they are supplying the Elves' enemies.
What a Twist! 
And, of course, that just makes your job so much easier in convinciing the PCs that the Village is up to no good. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Nov 2008 20:03:49 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 19:06:26
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Currently I have the rust-guard as an oily substance made from fish parts that the sea elves smear on the weapons. The problem is that it breaks down after a few months, and battle scrapes it off, which requires constant maintenance. I'll keep your shell idea in mind if the PC's go underwater, that might be useful.
The malenti idea is tempting, but geography makes it impractical. Harrowdale's coast is in the heart of Selu'Maraar's back country. The chance of a malenti community (noble or otherwise) existing there is less than nil. However there no reason I can't hint broadly that maybe the sea elves are actually malenti. After all, no one on the surface (at least no one my players are likely to speak to) knows anything about the subsea geography or politics.
I think you just handed me another red herring to throw at my players. Thanks. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 20:07:31
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As long as at least one Sahuagin is found with a sword originating from Harrowdale (they probably put some sort of stamp on them), then the PCs will probably jump to conclusions if they happen to spy on a 'secret exchange' and see what looks like a Sea-Elf taking weapons from them (which could actually be a Sea-Elf, but the PCs would assume the worst).
In fact, they could even confuse the Villagers at some point, and try to convince them that they HAVE been selling to Malenti, which would make things interesting when the Sea-Elves come back for more stuff.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Nov 2008 20:08:14 |
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Speed steel rusts in salt water
