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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 18:48:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Let's see...
Deities:
Have 'Churches'
Have Toril
Primordials:
Have 'Cults'
Have "Abeir"
-That's all I've got. Basically, as the saying goes, "Same [stuff], different smell".
Yeah, that was Rich's answer. Of course, I've already given my honest opinion about it (there's no effective difference between a "church" and a "cult"). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 18:52:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yeah, that was Rich's answer. Of course, I've already given my honest opinion about it (there's no effective difference between a "church" and a "cult").
-Perception of legitimacy and validity (that's actually the theological/anthropological answer, garnered from that class I have this semester.)
-But, in effect, no there is no real* difference. Just like, in effect, there is no real* difference between 'Deities' and 'Primordials'.
*Qualitative, quantitative, whatever you want it to be. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 18:56:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-But, in effect, no there is no real* difference. Just like, in effect, there is no real* difference between 'Deities' and 'Primordials'.
I have to say I think I agree with that, too. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 22:25:11
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Bah, that's like saying there is no difference between humans and elves.  Well, I didn't invent primordials. I just get to play with them. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 00:31:05
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Primordials are just the 'old gaurd' in the deific food-chain.
Come to think of it... we pre-4e FR fans are sort of like primordials... 
I guess the Titans and Jotuns will just have to move over and make room for us to in the Old God's Home.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 05:40:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yeah, that was Rich's answer. Of course, I've already given my honest opinion about it (there's no effective difference between a "church" and a "cult").
To paraphrase a button of mine:
"A *church* is a cult with political power."
Ahem. Dodging the real world, I pray to remind scholars that at least one "dead" god (Threphocris) has created hang gliding and kite flying opportunities on and in his (?) corpus dei, presumably because having adventurous sportsmen traipsing around on his corpse discourages the githyanki from building a city on his face (or other parts).
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 06:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
[quote]Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Ahem. Dodging the real world, I pray to remind scholars that at least one "dead" god (Threphocris) has created hang gliding and kite flying opportunities on and in his (?) corpus dei, presumably because having adventurous sportsmen traipsing around on his corpse discourages the githyanki from building a city on his face (or other parts).
Oh. And the Guardian of Dead Gods approves such behaviour? |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 06:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
To paraphrase a button of mine:
"A *church* is a cult with political power."
Ahem. Dodging the real world, I pray to remind scholars that at least one "dead" god (Threphocris) has created hang gliding and kite flying opportunities on and in his (?) corpus dei, presumably because having adventurous sportsmen traipsing around on his corpse discourages the githyanki from building a city on his face (or other parts).
Heh. Regarding the quote, my fave version is: "A religion is a cult that won a popularity contest." Anyway, on to other things: what's the source for this deity Threphocris anyway? It sounds like something published in April, if you get my meaning. 
Still, having people jumping off your face (or landing on it) is far better than having githyanki building stuff on it, don't you think?
In my Realms cosmos, there are no dead gods. Events in the Year of Blue Fire, instead of causing the Spellplague, brought all the dead gods back to existence. Partly to spite all those people who didn't like the large number of gods in the Realms and were listened to by Wizbro, but mostly just because existing gods are more fun than dead ones. Especially gods like Moander and Karsus... although Karsus is insane now, and still trapped within his immobile petrified corpse until someone frees him.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 07:50:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What I'm confused on is this: what is the true difference between a Primordial and a God???
That's a really good question, and one I have been pondering very hard of late. It's a question in need of an answer and I think I have an idea, a tentative idea at least.
Gods channel divine power, they have clerics, they grant those clerics divine power, and seem to derive their power from mortal belief. The strength of that belief sustains them and determines their rank or relative power ration. The absence of belief and worship in them can cause a god to lose power, to the point of death or quiescence once they have been forgotten.
Myths say that Selūne and Shar are the only two gods that existed before mortal life, but this may be a chicken-and-the-egg paradox: did gods create mortals or did mortals create their gods through belief?
Gods live in the Astral plane, which is to some extent the plane of thought, will and the psyche. The Astral plane itself may also be created by or a function of collective mortal thought.
Primordials are different from gods in several respects. Firstly, they arose before mankind, generated spontaneously, independent of belief. They are essentially "elemental spirits", though not necessarily "elementals". Primordials arose and live within the Elemental Chaos, which in prior editions was the "inner planes", the planes of potentiality.
Primordials wield a degree of power comparable to gods (at least some of them do) but we do not know if their power is actually divine in nature. I don't think it is. Their power, like their origins, appears to be independent of faith. They would seem not to require mortal worship to sustain them. Rather, they seem to derive their power from an elemental source, or location, channeling the "potential energy" of the substance, location, or even the plane itself, rather than tapping into divine power.
For instance, Titans seem to be tied to the substances they embody. Whereas demon lords bond with a layer of the Abyss and channel the power of that layer.
There does, however, appear to be some overlap between gods and primordials. Clearly, there are gods who wield divine power whose sphere (or portfolio) is elemental in nature, ie: Auril is the incarnation of cold; Umberlee the god of the sea, etc. And conversely there appear to be primordials who have gained worship by mortals and have learned to channel divine power. For example: Kossuth, Akadi, Istishia, and Grumbar are primordials who seem to have "ascended" to godhood. Perhaps also the giant deities, like Annam, Skoraeus, Grolantor, etc. All started out as primordials and then by means of worship from mortals, they became "like" gods.
You know, going back to the Selūne and Shar thing, perhaps their secret is that they spontaneously generated before the existence of mortal life for the reason that they are secretly primordials. Perhaps Selūne is the elemental spirit of light, and Shar the primordial incarnation of darkness. Perhaps they are crossover gods like Akadi & Grumbar, having acquired divine power from picking up mortal worshipers through the ages. I don't know for sure, but ith strikes me as something to consider anyway.
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 11:22:52
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Good thinking.
But back on the Sylune and Shar thing. I don't think they ever were primordials. If I remember correctly a god's power was independent of his worshippers before the ToT. As a lesson and punishment Ao based a god's power on his/her worshippers. Don't forget Sylune and Shar were there from the start in a time before mortal worshippers.
But if you look at it that way, it could mean all gods were primordials bfore the ToT and after that Ao distinguished the difference between deities and primodrials. This may sound a little silly but hey, nothing beats WotC with their whole Spellplague stuff |
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UNSpacy
Seeker
France
78 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 12:47:04
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They go to HEAVEN.
...
Oh wait... |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 14:31:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Bah, that's like saying there is no difference between humans and elves.
I'd actually be the first to argue that there is no huge difference between the two.
I totally agree with the quotes regarding churches and cults, and I'll leave it at that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 06 Nov 2008 14:33:55 |
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Mais-Cream
Acolyte
Netherlands
8 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 18:16:25
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@ Brian James;
I think there is a difference, kinda. Elves have pointy ears (yes, I know...humans can have pointy ears with some help of plastic surgery).
Elves have different DNA, they live much much longer, they have a different mindset, and are in balance (with nature).
Oh and, they tend to favour dressing in Green (products made out of nature -- not extra-vagant).
Yes they are of different race, just like Asian, Africans, Antartica-ans, NorthPole-ans, USA-ers, etcetc. Even though the latter are humans, they are of different race...
But the definition of race is kinda...different here *agh*
At least the elves, gnomes, heck..even devils (poor kids of Wolfgar and one-of-the-many-Succubus), can make off-spring...so technically...there are no differences, you think?
*I guess I'm contradicting myself here >_<;;)
Here's another one; humans --> Europeans, Americans, Africans, Asian, etc = Elves --> Aquatic elves, Moon Elves, Gold Elves, etcetc ??
As every different sub-elves have different properties (as in feats, bonuses, etc), Do humans also have sub-races (meddling of gods excluded e.g. Tiefling).
Difference of Church and Cult; I think Church is commonly accepted by majority, so they don't have to do everything in secret. They are not small groups of individuals who do secret things (that people frown upon --unless the is another secret society in a church society that have hidden agenda's).
A cult is a group that is not accepted by most, have to do most things in secret...and yes,...are in minority. |
My hands covered in ink, slapping on a piece of paper. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 20:08:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Mais-Cream
@ Brian James;
I think there is a difference, kinda.
<snip by DD>
I think Brian was just being sarcastic Mais-Cream...I'm rather sure about it.
Perhaps you read the Grand History of the Realms that he published with Ed Greenwood?
EDIT: Unless...you are being sarcastic too?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 06 Nov 2008 20:10:39 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2008 : 16:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Mais-Cream
Yes they are of different race, just like Asian, Africans, Antartica-ans, NorthPole-ans, USA-ers, etcetc. Even though the latter are humans, they are of different race...
I hope you aren't serious.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2008 : 17:42:35
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-Wher do the Dead Gods Go To? I figure a folder in a WotC Office somewhere for when the next edition change comes around so they can bring some of them back.
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 08 Nov 2008 17:50:08 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2008 : 21:59:28
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Ahem.
Gray Richardson, I think that you have been over-generous and projected your own marvelously well-thought ideas onto a poorly-planned contrivance. Of course, I am cynical about 4.New.Coke, and the more I see of it the more I despise it.
As for windsurfing on the corpus dei, I was being glib. The dead god's body is a planar touchstone site in the Planar Handbook, so presumably the Guardian of Dead Gods approves of adventurers going there.
What I would love to see is an encyclopedia of dead gods, many of whom would be vestiges, I'm sure. Do vestiges even exist in 4.New.Coke or was the money I spent on Tome of Magic and Dragon wasted?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Mais-Cream
Acolyte
Netherlands
8 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 21:22:05
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No, I wasn't sarcastic ^_^;
Anways, An encyclopedia about dead gods/goddesses would be indeed wonderful to have. What are vestiges?
Sigh, our local comic shop doesn't have the Grand History of the Realms...already asked. Seems there are some problems with their distributor. |
My hands covered in ink, slapping on a piece of paper. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 22:56:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Mais-Cream
No, I wasn't sarcastic ^_^;
Anways, An encyclopedia about dead gods/goddesses would be indeed wonderful to have. What are vestiges?
Vestiges were featured in the 3.5e Tome of Magic. You can learn more about them [as well as how to create new ones] here and, also, here as well.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Where do dead gods go to?
