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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 00:56:19
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by coach
George,
Has there ever been a line of Damaran Kings developed? (either pre- or post- glacier advance/receding)
and while i'm asking what about Sossal too? (since we know when the LAST one was, just not much else)
I'm guessing 'twould be easy to run the Bloodfeathers line back only 3 centuries hehe
i know it was a shoehorn not in Ed's original Realms and perhaps that's why it was one of the few monarchies that didn't receive any GHotR love
Thanks in advance
Hmm, missed this post from a while back.
The lineages contained in GHotR were made up of Steven's existing Tethyr line, his unfinished and unpublished Amnian line (which I tidied up), the unpublished and still undetailed Cormyrean line and Eric's Westgate lineage. Other lineages like Aglarond, Dambrath, and Silverymoon existed but had never been cobbled together in that form. I'd done the Velprin one when I had formalised Impiltur so that one was "waiting in the wings" as it were. The only ones created specifically for that book (and done in a mad rush I might add) were Narfell and Raumathar. If I'd had more time, I'd have done Sossal, Illusk/Luskan, Damara and likely the Netherese survivor states. Calimshan is doable - and I have a rough outline for it - but would be by far the biggest of them all and wouldn't have been done for that product no matter the lead time!
So, in a long-winded way, the anser is: no, there haven't been lineages formalised for Damara and Sossal. That's not to say I don't have any ideas for these, but I'm inclined to devote my (always short) leisure time to other projects.
Sounds like a good opportunity for someone here at the Keep to come up with something.
-- George Krashos
ok two things
1) using the novel Shield of Weeping Ghosts i think the Crell bloodline is now found in the current Creel tribe of Narfell, are there any other canon tribal blood connections to the Orgolath or Darakh dynasties?
2) i'd be inclined to try the Damaran line because I know that Damara wasn't in Ed's original Realms so i couldn't really bork that up too bad - what are the established dates of Damara's statehood?
it says in 1038 the glacier receded and folk migrated back ... then nothing til Virdin Bloodfeathers gets axed by the Witch-king, but when (if ever) was the time of the original kingdom ... in the various 3e sourcebooks Damaran language and melting pots are all too old to be from 1038 onward |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4174 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 03:28:41
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I would only offer that the modern "English" of the United States is VASTLY different than even 200 years ago.
So, even if folks hadn't fully settled (re-settled?) Damara by 1138...a full hundred years; that would still have left over 200 years to "melt" together whatever language and races you like. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 04:23:24
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well actually i was referring to the references that some kingdoms/states are descended from Damaran peoples and/or some languages descended from Damaran languuages and these states and languages are older than the glacier recession so i was thinking (assuming) that there must have been a Damara before AND after the glacier advance and recession
or i could have it all wrong and misremembered
i'll have to do some study |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6559 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 06:45:49
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I'd always thought that the name of the region had been Damara for a long time before the founding of the realm of Damara in more modern times. It's a bit like the modern nation state of Israel forming in a region where that name had been previously applied to it, but not for centuries.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6559 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 06:52:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
<snip>
Took me a while (mainly since I wrestled with what you presented me with as an answer/rebuttal for so long) to get to this one. Scribes will start seeing citations of "So saith George Krashos" in the 'Realmspeak' glossary and can thus reflect on whether they wish to use those terms or phrases themselves (just as I have) in the same manner.
Sorry Kyrene, I wasn't trying to be cute with this but I have never considered my musings (as opposed to my published writing) to have the gravitas and 'realmslore imprimatur' of similar work by Eric Boyd, Steven Schend, Brian R James and the fabulous writers who frequent the place such as Erik Scott De Bie. That's not false modesty at work, but simply an acknowledgement that "my way" isn't necessarily the "right" or "best" way regarding thoughts on the Realms. It's a big sandbox and as the years have gone on, it's nice to see other people get a go. That's not to say I still can't build a few sandcastles here and there, but my time at the beach is limited.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 02 Aug 2010 08:15:04 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4174 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 06:53:12
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Well, I thought Damara was a Celtic goddess...
Or a Namibian tribe...
But hey, Damara is actually one of my favorite kingdoms...I always thought it would go somewhere after the defeat of the Witch King. Maybe some sort of unity with Impultir to found a mighty Empire to threaten Thay...
Well, I can dream...
Now how about details on those tomes Krash!  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6559 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 08:16:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Well, I thought Damara was a Celtic goddess...
Or a Namibian tribe...
But hey, Damara is actually one of my favorite kingdoms...I always thought it would go somewhere after the defeat of the Witch King. Maybe some sort of unity with Impultir to found a mighty Empire to threaten Thay...
Well, I can dream...
Now how about details on those tomes Krash!
I came up with some good stuff while I was at work today. Give me a day or so and I'll give you Ordu's Amazar in all its glory.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
710 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 08:37:17
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Sorry Kyrene, I wasn't trying to be cute with this but I have never considered my musings (as opposed to my published writing) to have the gravitas and 'realmslore imprimatur' of similar work by Eric Boyd, Steven Schend, Brian R James and the fabulous writers who frequent the place such as Erik Scott De Bie.
True, but at the very least quite a few of your musings in this scroll have been prepared articles, submitted (to Wizards or Paizo, or others) but just never published. And besides, if anyone using the 'Realmspeak' glossary as a reference doesn't think a specific item with you as reference is 'canonical enough' for them, they are free to disregard it. I'm not going to make that choice for them though and thereby limit (or pre-censor if you will) its content.
I also plan to trawl through the scrolls of those lumnaries you 'don't see your work the equal of'  for anything they might have mused on and that could be applicable to the glossary. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4174 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 08:45:31
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Well, I thought Damara was a Celtic goddess...
Or a Namibian tribe...
But hey, Damara is actually one of my favorite kingdoms...I always thought it would go somewhere after the defeat of the Witch King. Maybe some sort of unity with Impultir to found a mighty Empire to threaten Thay...
Well, I can dream...
Now how about details on those tomes Krash!
I came up with some good stuff while I was at work today. Give me a day or so and I'll give you Ordu's Amazar in all its glory.
-- George Krashos
With an extra helping of glory if you please. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4174 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 16:36:16
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You did that on purpose!
EDIT: but I can soooo use it! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 02 Aug 2010 16:53:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36587 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 04:39:48
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| Somebody get Lady K on the line! |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 04:42:16
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| Then again, considering the Sage's to-do list, there's probably no need to hurry. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 05:24:50
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| Whether published or not, George's writing is pure gold and it's realmslore like this that reminds me why I first fell in love with the Realms. Kudos friend Krashos. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4174 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 06:29:06
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The truly wonderful thing is that this one "tiny" piece of lore put together more threads of thought and written information that I have than any single thing before it...just the mention of a "human Kiira" was more than enough to finish off my thoughts on SEVERAL levels...especially when coupled with this:
Quote (page 10 of the book "The Grand History of the Realms" by Brian R. James and Ed Greenwood):
quote:
"c. -18000 DR (est.)
Logical estimates suggest that the Citadel of the Raven [1276] was constructed in this period. Some scholars purport that the citadel is irrefutable evidence that a grand human nation existed on Faerun long before recorded history. Sages have further theorized that the barbarians of The Ride are the descendants of that once-great civilization."
Considering the location of The Ride...its relative distance from the raging storms of the Crown Wars...it could have went through thousands of years of civilization having never been known...a truly "Forgotten Realm" that ol' Krashos here has helped me pin down...and so now I'll be penning it down as well.
My thanks George! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
710 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 10:00:14
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George,
Time to start pestering you for 'Realmspeak' definitions.
What is the difference between "Impilturian" and "Impilturan"? I currently have is defined as:
“Impilturian” – Common:- a term applied to Impilturan work, study, beliefs, and customs, and to items of their making (So saith George Krashos - November 14, 2008)
“Impilturan” – Common:- a term applied to the collective folk of Impiltur (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting by Ed Greenwood, Sean K. Reynolds, Skip Williams, Rob Heinsoo)
but may be wrong in that "Impilturan" also refers to the culture, and "Impilturian" only to items made in Impiltur.
Then, what are the following:
“bluntquills” – Common:- something like a gossip writer? (So saith George Krashos - November 14, 2008)
“spellslay” – Common:- slay with spells (from ambush)? (So saith George Krashos - August 2, 2010)
Can you elaborate?  |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Edited by - Kyrene on 03 Aug 2010 13:15:50 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
693 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 12:22:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
George,
Time to start pestering you for 'Realmspeak' definitions.
(...)
Then, what are the following:
(...)
“bolthole” – Common:- a pre-selected place of safety with living amenities (possibly on another plane)? (So saith George Krashos - August 2, 2010)
Without stepping on Krash's turf, I think Bolthole is not a Realms-specific word. Webster-Miriam's online dictionary defines it as "a place of escape or refuge"? |
Club Secretary of the Dragons on the Hill RPG Club of London, UK: http://dragonsonthehill.co.uk/. |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
710 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 13:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
George,
Time to start pestering you for 'Realmspeak' definitions.
(...)
Then, what are the following:
(...)
“bolthole” – Common:- a pre-selected place of safety with living amenities (possibly on another plane)? (So saith George Krashos - August 2, 2010)
Without stepping on Krash's turf, I think Bolthole is not a Realms-specific word. Webster-Miriam's online dictionary defines it as "a place of escape or refuge"?
Oh, yes.  Thanks Thauramarth, it's been so amended. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
710 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 20:41:15
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Wooly or Sage,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Krash, that is some good stuff. I just made a pdf out of that, and I'm putting it in the same folder as the published Wyrms of the North articles. 
This is regarding Ouranalathra, "the Mistmaiden". Where are these PDFs (and I presume a lot of the other PDFs that are unofficially mirrored from WotC's site) archived here at the 'Keep? I can't seem to find them from any of the main links on the main Candlekeep page and would love to download the Ouranalathra one (I have long since downloaded all the others already from WotC's site). |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Edited by - Kyrene on 03 Aug 2010 20:47:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36587 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2010 : 00:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Wooly or Sage,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Krash, that is some good stuff. I just made a pdf out of that, and I'm putting it in the same folder as the published Wyrms of the North articles.
This is regarding Ouranalathra, "the Mistmaiden". Where are these PDFs (and I presume a lot of the other PDFs that are unofficially mirrored from WotC's site) archived here at the 'Keep? I can't seem to find them from any of the main links on the main Candlekeep page and would love to download the Ouranalathra one (I have long since downloaded all the others already from WotC's site).
I don't think any of that stuff is archived on this site. I was making a pdf for myself, and putting it in my own archives. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4174 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2010 : 01:15:54
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| Share much? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2010 : 01:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Wooly or Sage,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Krash, that is some good stuff. I just made a pdf out of that, and I'm putting it in the same folder as the published Wyrms of the North articles.
This is regarding Ouranalathra, "the Mistmaiden". Where are these PDFs (and I presume a lot of the other PDFs that are unofficially mirrored from WotC's site) archived here at the 'Keep? I can't seem to find them from any of the main links on the main Candlekeep page and would love to download the Ouranalathra one (I have long since downloaded all the others already from WotC's site).
I don't think any of that stuff is archived on this site. I was making a pdf for myself, and putting it in my own archives.
Wooly has the right of it. I don't ever recall any of this material being archived at Candlekeep. I *could* certainly offer my own complied PDF for possible download... I suppose.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4174 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2010 : 01:50:53
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I'm BEGGING you guys for some info here! 
I have a creative fire burning...and it has caused me to pound out over 5k words today for "The Ride" project...and I'm not even sure I can use it all!
Gimme, gimme, gimme... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36587 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4174 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2010 : 05:50:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Guys, that write-up is on page three of this thread.
Yes, yes it is...but all of your other information isn't. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
710 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2010 : 08:27:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Wooly or Sage,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Krash, that is some good stuff. I just made a pdf out of that, and I'm putting it in the same folder as the published Wyrms of the North articles.
This is regarding Ouranalathra, "the Mistmaiden". Where are these PDFs (and I presume a lot of the other PDFs that are unofficially mirrored from WotC's site) archived here at the 'Keep? I can't seem to find them from any of the main links on the main Candlekeep page and would love to download the Ouranalathra one (I have long since downloaded all the others already from WotC's site).
I don't think any of that stuff is archived on this site. I was making a pdf for myself, and putting it in my own archives.
Wooly has the right of it. I don't ever recall any of this material being archived at Candlekeep. I *could* certainly offer my own complied PDF for possible download... I suppose.
Oh. My mistake. I seem to recall (mistakenly as it turns out) that some of the FR (HTML) articles were being converted to PDF by the scribes here for archival on Candlekeep. My mind is going, as I've been suspecting for a while now...  |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1861 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 22:47:38
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Hail thee, High Loremaster Krashos.
We know that merchants are powerful in Impiltur, but the craftsfolk and labourers have received less mention in the lore. At least one mention of 'merchant guilds' is canonical for Impiltur and I seem to recall guilds in Lyrabar being mentioned in the Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy.
What can you tell us about Impilturan guilds? How do they compare to Waterdhavian guilds? Cormyrean ones? Do they receive Royal Charters? Are they powerful and monopolistic as in real history or are they mere 'kvetching clubs'?
Could you give a list (partial or otherwise) of which professions are organised in guilds in Impiltur? How geographically extensive these guilds are? What they do?
And, well, anything else you feel like sharing about them.
In fond hopes that this finds thee well,
your obedient servant,
Scribe Icelander. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6559 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2010 : 16:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Hail thee, High Loremaster Krashos.
We know that merchants are powerful in Impiltur, but the craftsfolk and labourers have received less mention in the lore. At least one mention of 'merchant guilds' is canonical for Impiltur and I seem to recall guilds in Lyrabar being mentioned in the Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy.
What can you tell us about Impilturan guilds? How do they compare to Waterdhavian guilds? Cormyrean ones? Do they receive Royal Charters? Are they powerful and monopolistic as in real history or are they mere 'kvetching clubs'?
Could you give a list (partial or otherwise) of which professions are organised in guilds in Impiltur? How geographically extensive these guilds are? What they do?
And, well, anything else you feel like sharing about them.
In fond hopes that this finds thee well,
your obedient servant,
Scribe Icelander.
Hmm, talk about a small topic.
Historically, the guilds of Impiltur date from the re-formation of the kingdom in 1097 DR and the ascension of King Imphras the Great. They arose from the fractious nature of the city-state alliance that Imphras had brought together when he united the realm again. Used to being autonomous in trade, the ruling strata of the cities of the region demanded and were granted regional concessions and left to "sort out" their own trade structure.
For many years this was a poor and badly run system, with age-old rivalries and prejudices defeating any attempts to get a cohesive, robust and competitive trade system operating within the kingdom. It was only with the crowning of Lashilmbrar that the trade guilds of Impiltur were brought into line beginning with his "Crown and Cart" decree in 1228 DR and culimnating in the Coin Conclave of 1233 DR where the presence of the king saw a system of guild law put into place that stressed cooperation, fair competition and harnessing of regional strengths and advantages.
The Coin Conclave saw the formalisation of trade guilds in the cities of Lyrabar, Sarshel, Hlammach and Dilpur with a clear geographic demarcation regarding areas of control. In a nod to the city-states of the Kingless Years, the guilds (called "laern" [singular and plural] in Impiltur) were named for the symbol of the city-state that they were based in and around. Hence the realm currently has the Two Moons laern (Dilpur), Redhorn laern (Hlammach), Blue Unicorn laern (Lyrabar) and the Threespires laern (Sarshel). The Uplands region also has its own laern (as of 1340DR by decree of Queen Sambryl) but this is the most fractious of the guilds and riven by internal turmoil with no strong leader and significant competing interests due to the nature of the large geographic area it encompasses and the very different trades that it brings under its aegis. It is known as the Stonehand laern.
Each guild is organised into "narnath" (singular: "narnoth") which are the various trades which have voting status within each guild. The different types of narnath vary from guild to guild throughout Impiltur although the 'standard' ones such as woodworkers, carters, fishers, masons, smiths, weavers, herders, and farmers are represented in every laern. Differences in laern are usually through the composition of a narnoth with some encompassing a number of vocations while others being more specialised (i.e. shipwrights, sail makers and fishers all in one narnoth or separated into two or three etc.). It is notable that the laern of Impiltur are made up of solely agricultural, trade and animal husbandry interests. Groups devoted to the arts such as musicians, painters and even sculptors are not usually guild-affiliated nor are those devoted to the study of magic or knowledge (i.e. sages and loremasters).
Historically each of the guilds has had a 'focus' area where it is considered to be a market leader. Traditionally, this means that Lyrabar leads the way on all matters relating to mining and stonemasonry, Hlammach on fishing, Sarshel on 'high farming' (large crops et al.) and Dilpur on 'low farming' (smaller crops and orchards et al). The Uplands has a bit of everything and tenaciously fights to get traction among the age-old guilds in matters that affect it significantly (ala charges for transportation of goods - which for the Uplands is naturally higher than for the Easting Coast cities).
Each guild is led by a conclave of individuals usually numbering 3 but sometimes up to 5 who have a a titular head (the High Factor) and who are voted in by members at a tri-annual gathering. Membership is determined by vote but in modern times that process has been delegated to a sub-council known as the Coinmasters who deal with the financial side of the guild (responsible for tithes, policing pricing, membership entry fees [which vary] and submissions to the crown on matters affecting trade and commerce).
The Crown in modern times does not interfere in guild business nor put in place strictures or laws pertaining to commerce, save and except in situations where the guilds have attempted to manipulate or influence trade and supply in areas considered to be sensitive (i.e. food in times of shortage and weapons and armor most any time).
I hope this has been helpful.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 11 Sep 2010 17:27:45 |
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Questions for George Krashos
