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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Ooh thats a good question.

It could have been founded following Tethyamar's first fall around -88 DR.

It could have been founded by dwarves from Myth Drannor (i think they were from the vast).

It could have been founded by the same kin of fallen Oghrann living in the Storm Horns that helped found Tethyamar.


I'm thinking since Tethyamar's founding mentions only sending word to the kin of fallen Oghrann in the Stormhorns (with no mention of the Thunderpeaks) that either Thunderholme was not there at this time or the two groups of dwarves were unrelated and therefore less inclined to help one another.

Maybe that gives some credence to the dwarves of Thunderholme being of the stock of Sarphil which would be different to the dwarves of Oghrann by a few thousand years.

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Originally posted by Eilserus

Maybe this will help some.

684 DR (The Year of the Sundered Crypt) - Dwarves of the clan Tarynstone are found digging deep tunnels under the city (Myth Drannor) despite the long-held prohibitions against such actions. Furthermore, some elf Houses are outraged that the dwarves' tunneling in restricted areas collapsed some nigh-forgotten deep crypts of the elder or long-gone Houses. Clan Tarynstone and its 350 dwarves, despite a cry within the Ruling Council for death sentences and an equally loud cry for acquittal, are exiled from Myth Drannor and Cormanthyr. The clan emigrates west into the Thunder Peaks. (Source: Fall of Myth Drannor)

989 DR (The Year of Dark Stalking) - Dwarven miners from a remote outpost of Thunderholme inadvertently broke into Aurgloroasa's lair and roused the very old shadow dragon from a decades-long sleep.

1001 DR - (The Year of the Awakening) Aurgloroasa began to whisper dark thoughts in the dreams of High Old One Dagan, son of Belgin, blood of Jangarak. Over the next 33 years, the ambitions of Thunderholme's high priest of Dumathoin grew as did his madness and his obsession with death.

1034 DR (The Year of Bane's Brood) - When the aging monarch (King Emerlin III) died in his sleep shortly after the disappearance of his only child, the crown prince, on a trade mission to Selgaunt, Dagan was quickly named Regent of Thunderholme. (Both the king and the prince were victims of Aurgloroasa's shadowy agents.) Within months, construction was begun on a grand temple to Dumathoin in the heart of Thunderholme.

1054 DR (The Year of the Tolling Terrors) - In a grand ceremony of dedication attended by all the dwarves of Thunderholme, the dwarven regent-priest dedicated the temple complex to Null, not Dumathoin, and named it the Necropolis of the Wyrm. As news of the unspeakable deed spread through the crowd, Dagan completed the unholy ritual by summoning the "avatar" of his new god and Aurgloroasa was loose in the city. In the chaos that followed, fewer than 30 dwarves escaped the maelstrom of evil that had been unleashed. Within a tenday, Thunderholme was a lifeless city, reeking of decay.

Rest of these come from the old 2E Cult of the Dragon book.

It's possible clan Tarynstone joined Thunderholme or perhaps they founded the remote outpost mentioned above. Judging from what we know of the place's architecture, such as: Immense halls and chambers supported by titanic pillars and cut from the heart of the living mountain have become magnificent sepulchers. Immense friezes depicting dwarven nobility and the daily lives of the common folk stand as monuments to the long-dead inhabitants; I'd assume Thunderholme took many centuries to carve out.

And with Dumathoin being the Keeper of Secrets, it's possible this place has existed for quite a long time. Definitely another place I'd love to see more detail on.

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Originally posted by Asgetrion

Krash, you've written of Oghranni (?) dwarves in this very thread. I wonder if you have any knowledge about Oghrann's most prominent clans? 'Dwarves Deep' lists the major shield dwarf clans, but it seems most of them wandered towards Worldspine mountains, Waterdeep and Mirabar after the kingdom's fall. Which clans might have traveled eastward, other than Iron House of Tethyamar? And did Tethyamar's inhabitants include other clans beside the Iron House, e.g. Brightblade dwarves from Daggerdale?

To expand on that, is it common that, for example, Clan Dunderhead's hold might also have a few Watchever, Darkfell or Worldthrone dwarves? (i.e. families or individuals from "major" clans)

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Originally posted by Asgetrion

I've also much enjoyed your lore on Tethyamar. What would be your educated guess of when Thunderholme was founded? I'm thinking of following years (in DR): -26, 127, 149, 227 and 250. Year of the Dwarf would fit nicely, but then again, Hlundadim's army assaults Cormyr around 200 DR, and I find that would have been a great opportunity for Tethyamar and/or Oghrann clans to expand into Thunder Peaks. Ergo, Year of Raised Banner (227) or Year of the Storm Crown (250) would work nicely. Or was Thunderholme, in your humble opinion, an independent kingdom and not an outpost of Tethyamar/Iron House?

Also, do you think there were refugees/clans from fallen Delzoun in Tethyamar and Thunderholme?

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Originally posted by George Krashos

[quote]You have to understand that other than Ammarindar and Delzoun, the other great dwarven kingdoms fell millennia before the raising of the Standing Stone. While some dwarves and clans of the Stormhorns and the Tethyamar mountains might claim ancestry with dwarves of Oghrann, Ammarindar, Delzoun or all three, those links would be tenuous.

My view is that the dwarves that survived the fall of Oghrann eked out an existence in the Stormhorns for centuries. The fall of Delzoun saw an influx of dwarves into Ammarindar, which in turn saw an influx of dwarves into the mountains around Cormyr. In my realms it was this influx that cemented the hitherto tenuous position of the dwarves of Tethyamar, as many dwarves flocked to its halls.

As noted by Eilserus, "Cult of the Dragon" provides some information on Thunderholme. Ed would know for certain, but I would have it founded after the raising of the Standing Stone, and likely as a single clan hold with no significant population. I wouldn't think that the number of Thunderholme dwarves was ever greater than 2,000-3,000. I don't think it would have had any refugees from either Delzoun or Oghrann, but the clan that ruled there may have been a sub-clan of one of the ancient clans of Oghrann.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Markustay

We really need a NEW Dwarf sourcebook for the Realms.

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Originally posted by Asgetrion

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Originally posted by George Krashos

[quote]You have to understand that other than Ammarindar and Delzoun, the other great dwarven kingdoms fell millennia before the raising of the Standing Stone. While some dwarves and clans of the Stormhorns and the Tethyamar mountains might claim ancestry with dwarves of Oghrann, Ammarindar, Delzoun or all three, those links would be tenuous.

My view is that the dwarves that survived the fall of Oghrann eked out an existence in the Stormhorns for centuries. The fall of Delzoun saw an influx of dwarves into Ammarindar, which in turn saw an influx of dwarves into the mountains around Cormyr. In my realms it was this influx that cemented the hitherto tenuous position of the dwarves of Tethyamar, as many dwarves flocked to its halls.

As noted by Eilserus, "Cult of the Dragon" provides some information on Thunderholme. Ed would know for certain, but I would have it founded after the raising of the Standing Stone, and likely as a single clan hold with no significant population. I wouldn't think that the number of Thunderholme dwarves was ever greater than 2,000-3,000. I don't think it would have had any refugees from either Delzoun or Oghrann, but the clan that ruled there may have been a sub-clan of one of the ancient clans of Oghrann.

-- George Krashos

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Thanks, Krash!

This helps a lot, and you're correct; any blood-ties to Oghrann would likely be thin.

Something I'm curious about, though: you don't think it'd be possible that Thunderstone was founded by -- or had among its inhabitants -- members from one of the "major" clans listed in 'Dwarves Deep', such Clan Darkfell, Rockfist, Stoneshield et al.? Or members of the Tarynstone clan, who fled to Thunder Peaks from Myth Drannor?

This touches on something I find hard to grasp, namely which of those FR11 shield dwarf clans reside(d) where, or are they widespread and found to be almost anywhere in the North? Or are some of them extinct by now, such as Clan Deepdelve mentioned in relation to the Dungeon of Death?

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

So, George and I have been using that list as a "list of available clan names". So far, we've worked out Delzoun, some of Besilmer, and some of Ammarindar.

We've got the idea of primary clans and affiliate clans, usually tied to one hold. Over time, those clans move around as mines play out, dwarfholds get overrun, or new riches beckon. Sometimes clans die out or all but die out, and other times, new clans are formed.

We've been using those clan names primarily for Delzoun, as that's the most famous dwarf realm, but they could be used for any shield dwarf kingdom.

More later. (Much later. We've made notes for a future "for fun" Delzoun-area sourcebook, but we've got to finish off the elves first. Bwahahahah.)

--Eric

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Originally posted by George Krashos

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Originally posted by Asgetrion

Krash, you've written of Oghranni (?) dwarves in this very thread. I wonder if you have any knowledge about Oghrann's most prominent clans? 'Dwarves Deep' lists the major shield dwarf clans, but it seems most of them wandered towards Worldspine mountains, Waterdeep and Mirabar after the kingdom's fall. Which clans might have traveled eastward, other than Iron House of Tethyamar? And did Tethyamar's inhabitants include other clans beside the Iron House, e.g. Brightblade dwarves from Daggerdale?

To expand on that, is it common that, for example, Clan Dunderhead's hold might also have a few Watchever, Darkfell or Worldthrone dwarves? (i.e. families or individuals from "major" clans)

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Do I have any 'knowledge' of the clans of Oghrann? No, I don't. Other than a few Oghrann mentions, the only real knowledge we have about that kingdom is in FR11 and there is no real information on any clan names - although you could probably assume that the most prominent clan was Firebeard (after its first king - although that might have just been his moniker).

Eric and I might get to Oghrann one day, but realistically that's a question of years rather than months I reckon.

I could ... ahem ... make up some stuff. But you could do so just as easily. Is this for a campaign, backstory or just wanting to fill in some lore gaps for your own edification?

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Duneth Despana

First of all: I love your lists of plays, drinks, books and songs of the Realms. Thank you! In your 'Book list of tomes in Candlekeep' the 'High History of the drow' is listed first as having been written in 1366 and counting 4 tomes and later as counting only one and having been written c.-200 ... which one is right? I have a vhaeraunite who'd like to consult it.

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Originally posted by Duneth Despana

Any news on 'History of the Heartlands'?

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Originally posted by Duneth Despana

You mention Askavar in your write-up for Dornavver in Champions of Valor. Do you have any more information (Timeline?) on this elven realm. Thanks in advance (and thanks not in advance for the truly superb realmslore you produce!).

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Originally posted by Demzer

Hi George,

what do you think will the various Lords of Imphras II and Queen Regent Sambryl do after the coronation of Imbrar Heltharn II with the end of both the Regency and the Council of Lords?
To shorten the list, consider that Lords Helimbraun, Oriseus, Silaunbrar, Engarth, Soarglim, Rilimbraun and Simgar died in my campaign in various Soneillon-related events.

Another question, did Mage Royal Selarbrin have any offsprings/successors/apprentices that he was grooming to continue the family line and take his place as new Mage Royal? (Yeah, he died too, my players took a while to catch up with the Soneillon-orchestrated intrigues so there were many casualties in Impiltur). If the answer to the above is "No" in one way or another, how is going to be appointed the new Mage Royal? And who is in "pole position" among archmages of the kingdom or foreigners to get the seat?

Thanks!

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