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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 22:17:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
[quote]Originally posted by Razz
...
No, you're right, I was actually thinking of giving him Old Common due to the time period he was created in...Thorass was what it was called wasn't it, I think?
So I assume Raumviran was the name of the Raumathari language, since there's that group of people that descend directly from the Raumathari living in the Hordelands who speak the same language.
At the risk of derailing this conversation by returning to the topic: yes and no. Old Common is indeed Thorass, and since "Realms Common" is a descendent of Raumvira, a descendent of Northern Imaskari, Thorass is a very reasonable language for such a character. The language of the Raumathar Empire, however, was Roushoum, a dialect of Imaskari: the requirements for Raumathari Battlemage include "Languages: Able to read Roushoum and the Imaskari script (this generally requires a Speak Language skill rank for each dead language)." See my scroll on Roushoum and the web supplement, Barbarians of the Endless Waste for more information on Roushoum (or just Google it, which also leads to a page on the Roushoum alphabet).
In my campaign I have made Decipher Script a class skill for all core classes able to cast spells at first level, taking a leaf from the Scholar class of Conan RPG (the only class in that game which may cast spells). I think that requiring wizards and bards and clerics and sorcerers who study "quaint and curious ... forgotten lore" to hire a rogue to translate it for them smacks of <GAG!> "play balance," which is anathema to the free will of both players and DMs. Still, having a rogue able to translate ancient arcane lore ... that's a good thing in principle, eh?
Mod edit: Fixed the link to the web enhancement; the URL was incomplete.  |
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 15 Oct 2008 02:01:12 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 01:47:38
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I see, so Roushoum was the language? I thought Roushoum was Imaskar's language and this language trailed into Raumathar lands and they eventually developed Raumvira?
What did the Narfell people speak then? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 02:05:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Agreed! But I only DM in the Realms, so, the theory became very interesting to my devious intents. 
About your questions:
Who would transport the maugs = Eltab, and some nasty Nar Summonbinders...
Why the Abyss = punishment; in the book,is said that the maugs go to there as prisoners of war(yes, the Carceri is a much better prison, but this will not fit well in my campaign)
That“s the short answers to justify their situation in my campaigns... I pretend to elaborate more, when the time comes to the pcs go to the planes, and stumble in the constructs...
I dunno... That's still a heck of a lot of power being expended, and not to the best effect. I'm also not seeing why the Nar would go out of their way to weaken the other side instead of strengthening themselves, too. Summoning more baddies for themselves takes less effort and is of a more direct benefit. And Eltab may be powerful, but planeshifting a large number of unwilling foes all at once? No, I don't see it.
And perhaps the most important point is that nothing in existing Realmslore suggests that the Rauthamar developed the maugs -- or, more importantly -- lost a large number of troops outside of the Great Conflagration.
You people should really read your GHotR a heck of a lot closer ... 
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 03:47:36
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Agreed! But I only DM in the Realms, so, the theory became very interesting to my devious intents.
About your questions:
Who would transport the maugs = Eltab, and some nasty Nar Summonbinders...
Why the Abyss = punishment; in the book,is said that the maugs go to there as prisoners of war(yes, the Carceri is a much better prison, but this will not fit well in my campaign)
That“s the short answers to justify their situation in my campaigns... I pretend to elaborate more, when the time comes to the pcs go to the planes, and stumble in the constructs...
I dunno... That's still a heck of a lot of power being expended, and not to the best effect. I'm also not seeing why the Nar would go out of their way to weaken the other side instead of strengthening themselves, too. Summoning more baddies for themselves takes less effort and is of a more direct benefit. And Eltab may be powerful, but planeshifting a large number of unwilling foes all at once? No, I don't see it.
And perhaps the most important point is that nothing in existing Realmslore suggests that the Rauthamar developed the maugs -- or, more importantly -- lost a large number of troops outside of the Great Conflagration.
You people should really read your GHotR a heck of a lot closer ...
-- George Krashos
My bad, I forgot that one tidbit. Arguments withdrawn.  |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 04:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I see, so Roushoum was the language? I thought Roushoum was Imaskar's language and this language trailed into Raumathar lands and they eventually developed Raumvira?
What did the Narfell people speak then?
Ah.
Well.
<ahem>
Sadly, the sources for the complex linguistics of Faerun, Zakhara, and Kara Tur are not internally consistent with one another. The three main sources for your research should probably be:
* "The Linguistics of Faerun," by Tom Costa, which was intended to be a one-off to give players an idea of how various languages sound, and its linguistic groups were intended to facilitate the assignment of language proficiencies in AD&D;
* The Horde boxed set, which has a chart of language family relations and a chart of alphabets (all of which are just ciphers of our 26 letter alphabet);
* Unnaproachable East, which doesn't spend a lot of time on languages, but which gives plenty of history from which inferences may be drawn.
I haven't seen the Kara Tur boxed set, but it may have a section on languages.
Tom gives "Naric" as the language of the Nars (but I can't vouch for this being the language of ancient Narfell). He places Naric in the Low Ulutim sub-group of Ulou (which sound like Baltic dialects and Lithuanian). He has a "Raumtheran" modern language proficiency listed, and shows it as a Faerunian language, but I don't see other references to it; it may have slipped through the cracks when someone decided that the Raumathari spoke an Imaskar (non-Faerunian) language.
At this point I think that it is best to defer to Ed himself for further details, bearing in mind that I've already quoted him in my "Pronouncing Roushoum" scroll. I think that we mere scholars have exhausted the linguistic well -- it's time to consult a sage!
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Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 04:47:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
... it's time to consult a sage!
Consulting Rosemary might also be a good idea at this thyme.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 06:58:47
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I have an answer for you from Races of Faerūn: By 900 DR, the Raumvirans established the empire of Raumathar with its capital at Winterkeep, stretching from the northern tip of Lake Ashane to the western shore of the Great Ice Sea and from Sossal to the Lake of Mists. p.99 and also The Rashemi language, derived from Raumvira and the dead language Halardrim, uses the Thorass alphabet introduced
by Chondathan traders traveling along the Golden Way. p.101
So it appears that Raumathar spoke a language called Raumvira. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 07:05:07
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Found one more reference of note from Races of Faerūn p.108: Members of this ethnic group speak Raumvira, a tongue closely related to Rashemi, Dwarven, and a northern dialect of Imaskari. Raumvirans employ an alphabet of Dethek runes taught to them before the founding of Raumathar by the Siremun dwarves of the Firepeaks, a range of mountains to the east of the Lake of Mists.
This was in the section on the Raumviran ethnic group. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 20:58:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I have an answer for you from Races of Faerūn: By 900 DR, the Raumvirans established the empire of Raumathar ...p.101
So it appears that Raumathar spoke a language called Raumvira.
Thanks, Gray, I rarely use that and didn't think to look in it. The sections you cite are well and good, except that they doesn't explain the Battlemage requirement for knowing Imaskari instead of Raumvira.
The data is so contradictory that I finally asked Ed to give us definitive information on the languages of Raumathar and Narfell. Until we hear otherwise from Ed, my answer to the question -- as a DM -- is that their language is whatever the DM says it was!
(Hmmm ... I wonder if this obfuscation of linguistic lore is just a scam run by sages so that inquiring adventurers have to get second and third opinions -- all contradictory -- on language questions? Considering that really, really bad things happen if one speaks to the Seven Imaskarcana in anything other than correct Roushoum, maybe sagely linguistics specialists figure that their contradictory answers are a permanent source of income!)
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 17 Oct 2008 21:01:41 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 21:10:12
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Well, I would speculate that the requirement for Battlemages knowing Imaskari is twofold:
1) if you read the 2nd excerpt, it suggests that Raumvira started as a northern dialect of Imaskari that probably acquired some loan words and perhaps even a few grammatical constructions over time from their association with the Siremun dwarves of the firepeaks. So Raumvira appears related to Imaskari in the way that French or Italian are related to Latin.
2) I would imagine that Battlemages must learn Imaskari because their spells and rituals were simply written in Imaskari. Just as the Catholic church preserved Latin as their liturgical language for centuries after Latin had died out as a living tongue. I would posit that spells are learned by rote, so the text of the spells would not change from the Imaskari they were originally written in, even though the language, as spoken, had evolved somewhat. They wouldn't rewrite a spell to update the wording if the spell worked just fine as is.
They probably also enjoyed the caché of being able to speak in an ancient dialect. Moreover, they may even have had a tradition of using Imaskari as a formal language for scholarly or arcane purposes in preference to the everyday spoken language of Raumvira.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2008 : 22:41:19
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That's certainly plausible: Roushoum as a prestige language....
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 20:18:51
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*casts thread necromancy*
If the Raumvirans are "Descended from the inhabitants of the great empire of Raumathar" (Races of Faerūn), what does "Raumathari" refer to then? Does it refer to the culture of, and items made by the once great Raumvirans, or to the Raumvirans themselves at the height of the Raumathari Empire ("-900 The Nar and Raumathari Empires rise to prominence. The Raumvirans establish Winterkeep." Lost Empires of Faerūn)? |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2010 : 06:50:31
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Raumvir was a tribe or ethnicity. "Raumviran" describes the tribe or ethnic identity of the Raumviran people. Raumathar was a kingdom or "realm" that was founded by Raumvirans in -900 DR. Presumably they conquered or colonized lands beyond their political borders to become an empire--as they were described in -623 when they began to war against Narfell. The Nars were trying to halt the Raumathari expansion. "Raumathari" is an adjective describing the political identity of the nation of Raumathar.
The Raumvirans as a tribe predate the Raumathar empire, they arrived from the east circa -5000 DR (-4963?) led by their chieftan Shemen and settled in Rashemen. Come to think of it, "Rashemen" itself is probably some sort of portmanteau or derivation somehow formed from the name "Shemen", perhaps with a "Rau-" or "Ra-" prefix added indicating, the Rau of Shemen, or Nation of Shemen, something along those lines, I would bet.
GHotR states they founded Raumathar in -900. While the present day Raumvirans are indeed descended from inhabitants of Raumathar, their ancestors also founded Raumathar, and had a cultural identity as Raumvirans for at least 4,000 years preceding that. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2010 : 07:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The Raumvirans as a tribe predate the Raumathar empire, they arrived from the east circa -5000 DR (-4963?) led by their chieftan Shemen and settled in Rashemen. Come to think of it, "Rashemen" itself is probably some sort of portmanteau or derivation somehow formed from the name "Shemen", perhaps with a "Rau-" or "Ra-" prefix added indicating, the Rau of Shemen, or Nation of Shemen, something along those lines, I would bet.
I did indeed settle upon the prefix "Ra" to mean "Land/people/realm (kind of a weird hybrid collective term/idea of all three) of" in the tongue of the Raumvirans. This is why I created Shemen and why the first monarch of Raumathar has the name he has in GHotR. So it begs the question: who was Umviran?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2010 : 08:46:29
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So the Raumathari were Raumvirans specific to the empire of Raumathar, just like (I assume now) the Narfelli were Nars specific to the empire of Narfell. The Raumathari and Raumvirans (both modern and ancient) mostly spoke/speak Raumvira, while the Narfelli and ancient Nars spoke Narfelli as the modern Nars now speak Damaran.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The Raumvirans as a tribe predate the Raumathar empire, they arrived from the east circa -5000 DR (-4963?) led by their chieftan Shemen and settled in Rashemen. Come to think of it, "Rashemen" itself is probably some sort of portmanteau or derivation somehow formed from the name "Shemen", perhaps with a "Rau-" or "Ra-" prefix added indicating, the Rau of Shemen, or Nation of Shemen, something along those lines, I would bet.
I did indeed settle upon the prefix "Ra" to mean "Land/people/realm (kind of a weird hybrid collective term/idea of all three) of" in the tongue of the Raumvirans. This is why I created Shemen and why the first monarch of Raumathar has the name he has in GHotR. So it begs the question: who was Umviran?
-- George Krashos
So, Raumathar means "Land/people/realm of Amathar"? I seem to recall seeing Amathar during my research last night into the distinction between Raumathari and Raumviran, but I can't recall any details now. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2010 : 02:34:51
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Actually, it's "Umathar" and the lineage for Raumathar in GHotR makes him their first arkhan (ruler).
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2010 : 08:20:10
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| So the Ra prefix applies to Ra-khati, Raurin etc.? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2010 : 02:35:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
So the Ra prefix applies to Ra-khati, Raurin etc.?
I would approach it in that fashion, but that's just me.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2010 : 07:05:59
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| Could the "Ra" prefix be simply a genitive marker, like French "De" or German "Von"? That might give it broader grammatical usage beyond it's use in place names. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 02:05:43
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"The Land of Urin(e)" 
Well, at least now I know what the gnolls were doing when the Mujhari first ran into them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 06:27:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Could the "Ra" prefix be simply a genitive marker, like French "De" or German "Von"? That might give it broader grammatical usage beyond it's use in place names.
It could be anything you like.
I'm not much of a FR linguistics scholar, so I'll leave that to the experts.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Topic |
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Raumathar language
