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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 16:09:21
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I hope this goes okay here.
I keep hearing everyone here on the boards comparing Paizo to WoTc, and it seems the latter comes off poorly in the estimation of many fans. If we can keep it polite -- just why is that? Does Paizo pay more attention to the fanbase, do they simply have better writers, or do they have a new and fresh take on old material?
Of course, if anyone sees WoTC as the superior fantasy publisher, I'd like to hear the reasoning for that too.
Thanks all.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 16:12:43
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| I wouldn't call myself an "expert" on this or anything, but I'm seeing a combination of several factors--disenchantment with what WotC has done in their newest products (dislike of 4E, of the 4E Realms, or both), and curiosity about the shiny new setting and rules that Paizo is coming out with. And yes, as far as I can tell Paizo is quite frank about desiring input from fans. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 16:30:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
I hope this goes okay here.
I keep hearing everyone here on the boards comparing Paizo to WoTc, and it seems the latter comes off poorly in the estimation of many fans. If we can keep it polite -- just why is that? Does Paizo pay more attention to the fanbase, do they simply have better writers, or do they have a new and fresh take on old material?
Of course, if anyone sees WoTC as the superior fantasy publisher, I'd like to hear the reasoning for that too.
Thanks all.
Yes, Yes and Yes. 
Seriously though, I think it's a discomfort with Wasbro over the handling of the D&D (not just the Realms). You have to look at the facts. Ever since 3.5 came out, every gamer started to question when 4th was going to be out. And many began to speculate that soon after the release of 3.5, they began to work on 4th edition. Every time they were confronted with this question, Wasbro's official press releases were "We are not working on 4th Edition and have no plans to." Then, GenCon 2007 (and I was there) there's posters everywhere showing the d20 with a 4. Their website was replaced with a countdown timer set to go off at the time of the announcement for 4E.
More information comes out and it turns out that, yes , they WERE working on 4th Edition from almost just after the release of 3.5. Having gone through the same scenario with my job in 2001 (no, we're not moving the Helpdesk to Virginia - Surprise! We're moving to Virginia) I understood too well what would happen next. Gamers, realized they have been lied to for going on three years, began to get ticked at the company's treatment. Add to that third party publishers that were losing their income (Margaret Weis having the Dragonlance pulled away from her company and Paizo losing Dragon and Dungeon magazines) and you have a 1) market looking to keep what they have and 2) companies that begin looking at producing that product.
Paizo seems to be full of people that love the game. They knew some stuff was broken in 3.5 but didn't think that we needed to go back to the drawing board. Listening to the fanbase, they decided to go ahead with a 3.P version and, since we gamers are pretty good at breaking systems  , tapped the entire gamer population to playtest the new system so that it is built with the customer in mind.
Anyway, that's my take on the situation.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 16:49:39
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Paizo have the same philosophy towards gaming as I do, namely the 'simulationist' (for lack of a better word) attitude. WoTC have moved to the 'gamist' philosophy with 4.0.
Paizo have better writers, resulting in better products. They also have lots of products, so people can either choose to buy just the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, or go really into depth with the various support products. They also have the widest range of really good adventures, that don't treat players like fools.
Further, they have the best customer service in the industry, period. The times I've talked to them they've been very helpful and friendly. This attitude extends to the rest of the staff, who have always been communicative on the forums, chat rooms and when I met them in person at GenCon UK.
Paizo is just plain better. Besides, they are still supporting my game of choice. WoTC spellplagued my campaign of choice. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 17:07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Further, they have the best customer service in the industry, period. The times I've talked to them they've been very helpful and friendly. This attitude extends to the rest of the staff, who have always been communicative on the forums, chat rooms and when I met them in person at GenCon UK.
I've only had one dealing with their customer service side, but they went so far above and beyond that it absolutely floored me -- it was, quite possibly, the best customer service experience I'd had.
I can't really say too much about their products; all I have right now is the Campaign Setting. But I am really enjoying it, and I'm finding a lot of areas I want to explore further -- much like the Old Grey Box and the FRA, which were among my first Realms products. I've heard rave reviews about their other products, too.
I think, though, that the listening to the customers thing is the major one. WotC not only lied to its customers, it refused to listen to them on anything, until after all the major decisions were made. Paizo is going out of its way to not only get customer input, but also to incorporate into their version of the game what the customers want or say needs to be changed. Using your target demographic as playtesters is brilliant for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that it involves the customers and gives them a chance to get the game they truly want. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 18:12:24
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Paizo has lower overheads, and no parent company demanding a particular high profit margin every quarter. It probably has more enthusiasm for what it does per average employee. Being smaller, it doesn't have to worry about things like attracting completely new RPGers and managing long-established brands, and, yes, it's closer to its readers/purchasers.
For these reasons I think it would a much better publisher for Realms sourcebooks. I think it could make a very nice income doing justice to what the Realms is rather than co-opting it to serve something it's not. Erik Mona knows what that means through his fandom and experience with the World of Greyhawk.quote:
Just as a casual observation, anyone who considers the presence of Vancian magic a dealbreaker is probably lost to us, and I'm ok with that.
Personally, I view the pulp fantasy roots of the game as a feature and not a flaw, and I'm glad that there is an edition of the game for people who don't, because that is not a version of the game I am very interested in publishing.
(quoted in James Maliszewski's blog) |
Edited by - Faraer on 10 Oct 2008 18:14:06 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 20:14:33
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Paizo cares about what the customer wants, and WotC designers care about what they want.
That the bottom line.
We have one developing a game system over a two year-period and not just welcoming input from fans, but inviting everyone to participate in an open playtest! Thats not just goodwill, but brilliant business-savy (they created 'buzz'). On the other hand, we have WotC, developing 4e for three years in total secrecy, and in the mean-time selling us 3e books right up until the announcment.
I'm sure glad I got those Fiendish codexes, just before they became useless. 
Anyhow, whereas Paizo is catering to the existing (RPG) fanbase, Hasbro is looking for that elusive customer-yet-to-be. Its a whole different mindset with them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Oct 2008 20:15:21 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 21:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Paizo is just plain better. Besides, they are still supporting my game of choice. WoTC spellplagued my campaign of choice.
I think I'm starting to turn into an "Uzzy" fan...
Ok, I know you're already in my sig, but can I add this new quoted sentence to it too? |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 22:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've only had one dealing with their customer service side, but they went so far above and beyond that it absolutely floored me -- it was, quite possibly, the best customer service experience I'd had.
I'd like to add to Wooly's comment here:
I, too, has had only one dealing with their customer service, and it was also, with the utmost certainty, the best customer service experience I'd had.
I called to order Steel Squire spell templates (steel wire 10'/20'/40' radius blast shapes or 15'/30'/60' cone blast shapes that you put on a battle map grid, AROUND the existing minis so you don't have to lift them up or displace them...) I was trying to order directly from the manufacturer and was frustrated that Paizo had an exclusivity deal with them. When customer service asked me why, I double-blinked  and told them that honestly, I did not trust Paizo because of the poor handling of my Dragon subscription way back... They told me "we're a much different company now, and let us prove it to you by giving you a $20 credit on your new Paizo online ordering account, which you can readily use on Steel Squire products or anything else offered by the Paizo website."
I was floored, and much more so later when I was emailed various free PDF downloads, "to give me a taste of the kind of quality products offered here at Paizo."
The guy that dealt with me the whole time was pretty high up in the food chain, and not surprisingly, cared enough... so much so that I am now a regular and loyal customer of Paizo. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 22:45:59
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Of course you can PDK!
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 02:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Paizo cares about what the customer wants, and WotC designers care about what they want.
That the bottom line.
We have one developing a game system over a two year-period and not just welcoming input from fans, but inviting everyone to participate in an open playtest! Thats not just goodwill, but brilliant business-savy (they created 'buzz'). On the other hand, we have WotC, developing 4e for three years in total secrecy, and in the mean-time selling us 3e books right up until the announcment.
I'm sure glad I got those Fiendish codexes, just before they became useless.
Good books are never useless... only the systems that are incompatible with them.
I don't know about the rest of the experienced (playing since 2E or earlier) crowd, but I've found it easier to convert stuff between 1E/2E and 3E than between 3E and 4E. That's sad, considering that 3E and 4E are both allegedly "d20 system" games. But it's precisely because of that incompatibility (and, moreso, because of what was done to the Realms and supposedly why) that I'm ditching Wizbro for Paizo. I just hope that 4E Realms tanks badly enough that Paizo is able to pick up the gaming product license; Wizbro can keep the novels, which I haven't read except those by Ed since the first Drizzt prequels back when I was 20-ish and liked that sort of thing.
Anyway, to keep to topic: I second what Markustay said above. The bigger the company is, the less they care about anything non-financial relating to their product. I still think that TSR was a better publisher than pre-buyout Wizards, in part because I miss the old 1E/2E campaign setting boxed sets. Yes, you can put more information in a big book for the same price, but I miss the maps. There should have been poster maps with Underdark and Lost Empires, showing the respective maps that were included as two-page spreads in books that can't be opened completely flat. (And yes, this is why I've been so supportive and encouraging of Markustay's efforts on his pre-Spellplague-era maps. I love maps. My personal creative skills are with history, however, so I'm fleshing out the history of Toril; with the advent of 4E, I've decided that "canon" is a meaningless concept, because I want to chronicle the history of Toril, not Toreberril or whatever it should be called these days.)
This is why I am playtesting the Pathfinder beta and why I will be purchasing the Pathfinder rules as soon as they are available. I want to keep gaming, and if I have to give my buck to Wizbro to get new gaming products, I won't get new gaming products. I don't have time to make it all up myself any more, which is another reason I love the pre-Spellplague Realms. However, the Spellplague has forced me to make it all up myself, so I may end up switching over to the Pathfinder world as well, unless I find some more time in my future. Either way, I'm done with Wizbro, unless they fix what they've destroyed (not likely). The only other way I'm buying published Realms products (including novels set post-Spellplague) is if the setting gets sold off to another company (ideally Paizo).
Anyway, I'm getting ranty with this post, so I'm going to close it up now. If this is too much rant and not enough level-headed comparison of the companies, I'm sorry, but this is a Realms-focused board and I am, like many others are,       over what has been done to the world that I know and love. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 11 Oct 2008 02:32:17 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 06:11:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Of course you can PDK!
Done
PS: check out Elaine Cunningham's thread for some sweet developing action in the Pathfinder setting... basically Elaine is writing short stories for them, which will see print in the ongoing Pathfinder Path adventures (which you can subscribe for there: http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath/legacyOfFire/v5748btpy7xpo )
Ok...
---> Converting Elaine to Pathfinder: Done!
---> Converting Ed to Pathfinder: 90% done...
---> Convincing Ed and Elaine they should write novels for Pathfinder/Paizo: 14% done... and much progress anticipated over this fine Canadian long-weekend... just watch me! muhahahahhahaah!
LOL! all tongue-in-cheek, of course!
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 08:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Paizo have the same philosophy towards gaming as I do, namely the 'simulationist' (for lack of a better word) attitude. WoTC have moved to the 'gamist' philosophy with 4.0.
I can agree with that comment on Paizo as being a bit more focused on the "technical side" of the game and it continues on the boards. My one attempt at adding something on the boards was in a "Fighter vs. Wizard balancing" thread and more or less consisted of examples how Wizards gain MUCH more from magic items(*1) and ended in the reasoning that balance cant come through new feats and powers, but has to come through the DM (giving every PLAYER his 15 minutes of fame an evening). For this I was more or less dissed as writing "wrong stuff" (the guys didnt even bother quoting me) or other nice terms. So they went back to discussing techical ways to solve the dilemma of trying to balance two totally different classes through mechanics instead of gameplay. You can talk for hours about feats, but talking about ways to make a game work is not that easy ...
Paizo also has a "playtesting forum", which allows such extremes as "level 15 Wizard solo-adventuring" topics. Here some dude explains how he "solos" an adventure (together with his Simulacrum and a follower) by totally scrying the enemy base (and mapping it in the process) and then sending in the Simulacrum (invisible and undetectable and such) with something called "Ring Gate" through which the main char then proceeds to send a series of spells which kill the evil boss. It reads totally like a mission description of some marines. Effective, but totally unstylish for a fantasy roleplaying game. The big bad point is that people discuss this seriously ...
So now I have more or less given up on the Paizo board. Pathfinder is nice, but I fear the "more power is good" gamers will win that set of rules over. This doesnt mix with my view of the game (and how to "fix" it), so I will just have to take the excellent ideas from their system and mix them with 3.5.
WotC has been an awesome publisher, right until the release of 4e. The new material and the new publishing philosophy of e-compatibility and minis-compatibility gives the game a focus I dont like. This also shows in the bad quality - which I can only judge from the excerpts we already discussed here - of the material that goes on sale. Technical issues have become more important than the question "Does this make sense?". I only need to refer to the Intelligence 3(*2) Skeletons who are using "team tactics" of flanking (just because that is more efficient) or the constructs who "cant speak, but say some phrases". Story seems to have gone missing from WotC and the bomb they planted in FR has been a few numbers too big for my taste.
So I dont really like any one of these publishers from the rules point of view, but Paizo still has a slight edge of goodness and fresh ideas.
(*1) Thus low number of magic items is one prerequisite for a balanced campaign.
(*2) Skeletons have apparently become more intelligent compared to 3rd edition - where they are mindless - but even intelligence 3 isnt enough for me to warrant them using tactics. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 11 Oct 2008 08:47:13 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 15:58:53
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I've had the opportunity to work with Paizo as a freelancer when Dragon/Dungeon magazine were still in print form and Paizo was in charge of that, and I've also had the pleasure of working with them on their Pathfinder/Golarion material. I've had only a positive experience through it all. They've been incredibly open to discussion on topics I've worked on, and I've gotten the sense that they all talk to each other / share cool ideas / collaborate on stuff when possible / rather than develop dfferent projects in isolation. I've also enjoyed the feedback I've gotten on my stuff, which has helped quite a bit in trying to improve on my end.
As for WotC, that's a different story because I've never written anything for WotC. I've tried to pitch ideas to e-Dragon, and I've pitched some finished things that were left over from the slush pile during the pre-4e transitional period in the e-zines (and one of those slush pile leftovers I was asked to send over because they were interested to see it). Suffice to say I've never received feedback on anything in any form: no reply to any emails, nor any reply to PMs. I'm at the point where I'm almost giving it up as a lost cause, because I have other opportunities elsewhere in what little time I have to write outside of my normal 9-5 career, so why should I devote time and creative energy to coming up with ideas to pitch to Dragon/Dungeon with WotC when it seems to be completely ignored.
A two month window of 'we'll say something within that time frame if we're interested, but otherwise we'll say nothing and you can assume silence is a lack of interest'. Seriously, give some notice of rejection rather than leaving interested people just hanging there, slowly getting annoyed or turned off on the entire affair. Sometimes it took a little while, but Paizo during their tenture gave rejection notices, even if just form letters, and WotC needs to start doing the same time or they're going to have the pool of new writers dry up on them.
That said, I haven't gotten any sense of freelance opportunity over there unless you were already one of the freelancers who was given advance exposure to the 4e material.
I also haven't been a public fan of certain aspects of 4e, and I have to suspect that as a result, I might not exactly receive a friendly disposition if I tried to persue anything with WotC. Given the right project I'd be all for it, but the well might already be poisoned. :/ |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 16:39:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Paizo have the same philosophy towards gaming as I do, namely the 'simulationist' (for lack of a better word) attitude. WoTC have moved to the 'gamist' philosophy with 4.0.
I can agree with that comment on Paizo as being a bit more focused on the "technical side" of the game and it continues on the boards. My one attempt at adding something on the boards was in a "Fighter vs. Wizard balancing" thread and more or less consisted of examples how Wizards gain MUCH more from magic items(*1) and ended in the reasoning that balance cant come through new feats and powers, but has to come through the DM (giving every PLAYER his 15 minutes of fame an evening). For this I was more or less dissed as writing "wrong stuff" (the guys didnt even bother quoting me) or other nice terms. So they went back to discussing techical ways to solve the dilemma of trying to balance two totally different classes through mechanics instead of gameplay. You can talk for hours about feats, but talking about ways to make a game work is not that easy ...
Paizo also has a "playtesting forum", which allows such extremes as "level 15 Wizard solo-adventuring" topics. Here some dude explains how he "solos" an adventure (together with his Simulacrum and a follower) by totally scrying the enemy base (and mapping it in the process) and then sending in the Simulacrum (invisible and undetectable and such) with something called "Ring Gate" through which the main char then proceeds to send a series of spells which kill the evil boss. It reads totally like a mission description of some marines. Effective, but totally unstylish for a fantasy roleplaying game. The big bad point is that people discuss this seriously ...
So now I have more or less given up on the Paizo board. Pathfinder is nice, but I fear the "more power is good" gamers will win that set of rules over. This doesnt mix with my view of the game (and how to "fix" it), so I will just have to take the excellent ideas from their system and mix them with 3.5.
WotC has been an awesome publisher, right until the release of 4e. The new material and the new publishing philosophy of e-compatibility and minis-compatibility gives the game a focus I dont like. This also shows in the bad quality - which I can only judge from the excerpts we already discussed here - of the material that goes on sale. Technical issues have become more important than the question "Does this make sense?". I only need to refer to the Intelligence 3(*2) Skeletons who are using "team tactics" of flanking (just because that is more efficient) or the constructs who "cant speak, but say some phrases". Story seems to have gone missing from WotC and the bomb they planted in FR has been a few numbers too big for my taste.
So I dont really like any one of these publishers from the rules point of view, but Paizo still has a slight edge of goodness and fresh ideas.
(*1) Thus low number of magic items is one prerequisite for a balanced campaign.
(*2) Skeletons have apparently become more intelligent compared to 3rd edition - where they are mindless - but even intelligence 3 isnt enough for me to warrant them using tactics.
I don't follow much of the forums over at Paizo because they are quickly becoming bogged down by munchkins and such in the playtesting area. This shouldn't be a reflection on Paizo, however, since these people have been part of every gaming franchise ever.
I have posted some ideas myself for the Beta test, and I suspect that, even when the other posters ignore or disagree with my posts, the developers don't and at least add it to their discussions for the final version. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 18:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I don't follow much of the forums over at Paizo because they are quickly becoming bogged down by munchkins and such in the playtesting area. This shouldn't be a reflection on Paizo, however, since these people have been part of every gaming franchise ever.
I have posted some ideas myself for the Beta test, and I suspect that, even when the other posters ignore or disagree with my posts, the developers don't and at least add it to their discussions for the final version.
Well I base this opinion of "Paizo = simulationists" more on the Pathfinder rules. They are beta atm, they have some very good ideas, but at the same time there are the same problems still in the game which have haunted 3rd edition ever since it came out. So that makes me believe they arent thinking in the right direction. Examples:
- Pathfinder gets rid of XP cost for spells and item creation. This means there will be more items created, which will benefit wizards a lot more in the end, but they already have enough power in high end games. So its a bit counterproductive IMO. XP cost is also a really good anti-munchkin device, because that cost really hurts compared to just a few gold.
- Pathfinder gives more powers to arcane classes (free sorceror spells and powers, the same for wizards and specialists can even cast spells from opposed schools). These classes dont really need more POWER, only more STYLE.
- Adding free pluses to the Fighter class seems nice, unless youre a non-fighter melee class.
Just some examples where they are trying to add mechanics to "fix stuff". We will see how many of these goodies are in the final release, but I dont think many of them will get taken out.
The "problem" of rude / munchkin Paizo boards is probably due to them not having the funds to "police" them well enough. So unfriendly stuff happens. WotC does have the funds to have their boards monitored closely - after all those "D&D is satanistic" public outcries they are probably doing that as a precaution. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 18:07:42
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The actual people that work for Paizo, i.e. the editors, designers, and customer service people, are the only moderation on the board, and they do tend to only get involved when something has gone really, really over the top. I certainly don't blame them for it, and honestly, until the playtest started up, I don't think they really needed much in the way of moderation.
Which brings me to the next point I was going to make, which is, I don't think a lot of the more strident power gamer type posters are really Paizo regulars. They certainly weren't posting much before the playtest, and I suspect that they only came over to the boards to pitch their idea on THE perfect version of 3.5, now that they have more of a direct line on it than they did with WOTC.
I'm betting most of them fall away from the boards after the final rules come out next year, in which case, things will go back to interesting, not power gaming discussions on Paizo's adventures, adventure paths, and rulebooks. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 20:09:39
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My opinion on the matter:
Paizo = asking their customers what they (the customers) want
WotC = telling their customers what they (the customers) want
Paizo = customer-centric
WotC = $$$-centric
Paizo = excellent video game developer before selling out to EA or Activision
WotC = what happened to excellent video game developer afters selling out to EA or Activision*
* Though so far Bioware and Blizzard seem to still be putting out quality material after being bought out, and technically Blizzard merged with Activison rather than being bought out by them |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 16:37:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm sure glad I got those Fiendish codexes, just before they became useless.
I'm still buying used 3.5 material; they should go great with what I'm buying from Paizo.
Abd thanks everyone for all the input, it's being very helpful. And a lot of it resonates with my own opinion on the subject. If it's okay, can I quote some of this on my LJ in an entry where I want to talk about my own feelings on Paizo versus WoTC? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 17:05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm sure glad I got those Fiendish codexes, just before they became useless.
I'm still buying used 3.5 material; they should go great with what I'm buying from Paizo.
Abd thanks everyone for all the input, it's being very helpful. And a lot of it resonates with my own opinion on the subject. If it's okay, can I quote some of this on my LJ in an entry where I want to talk about my own feelings on Paizo versus WoTC?
I've no probs on being quoted. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 17:24:39
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| Lol. I don't know if anything I blurb is quotable, but feel free to quote if if you like. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 00:38:07
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Thanks all.
As for quoting, I wouldn't be using names, more just pointing out that "I know of some guys who agree with me or who expressed the point better than I could, and here's precisely what they said." |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 00:51:18
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| I always kind of figure if I post it on the internet, someone else can take it and run with it. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 14:02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I always kind of figure if I post it on the internet, someone else can take it and run with it.
Hence all those pictures of KEJ floating around... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 14:59:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I always kind of figure if I post it on the internet, someone else can take it and run with it.
Hence all those pictures of KEJ floating around...
Yes, but he assures me that the picture of him with the pepperoni sub, the grape jelly, and the trio of hedgehogs is a fake. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 17:23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I always kind of figure if I post it on the internet, someone else can take it and run with it.
Hence all those pictures of KEJ floating around...
Yes, but he assures me that the picture of him with the pepperoni sub, the grape jelly, and the trio of hedgehogs is a fake.
Well . . . mostly fake. My wife hates grape jelly . . . |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 20:07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I always kind of figure if I post it on the internet, someone else can take it and run with it.
Hence all those pictures of KEJ floating around...
Yes, but he assures me that the picture of him with the pepperoni sub, the grape jelly, and the trio of hedgehogs is a fake.
Well . . . mostly fake. My wife hates grape jelly . . .
Umm... I was there, and the trio of hedgehogs picture is real... Wild times
And I didn't know that your wife hated grape jelly.
Steering myself back on topic:
As has been said before, Paizo runs a clean operation in comparison to Wizards of the Coast, primarily because they had not sold out to a multinational company. Not sayin' that they are doing the right or wrong thing there, but they are beholden to someone else as far as profit margins and the rules thereof are concerned.
Paizo, on the other hand, has done one thing very right. They communicate with their customers. It doesn't matter about much else, other than including the customers/gamers' base with the designers makes them feel like part of the process. This works to build a community that cares (even if a few are asking for flame wars).
Anyhoo, my 2 coppers.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 14 Oct 2008 20:14:15 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 20:43:37
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| Darkmeer, I think you said it perfectly. Paizo cares. Wizards used to care. Hasbro doesn't care, and won't allow Wizards to either now that they own them lock, stock, and cigar-smoking barrel. The bigger a company is, the smaller the amount of empathy they are capable of. Anyway, that's all I have time for right now; talking about corporate concerns (an oxymoron if there ever was one) just makes me angry anyway. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 21:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
As has been said before, Paizo runs a clean operation in comparison to Wizards of the Coast, primarily because they had not sold out to a multinational company. Not sayin' that they are doing the right or wrong thing there, but they are beholden to someone else as far as profit margins and the rules thereof are concerned.
It's not just that, though... TSR was its own company. And while they did do a lot of great stuff, they're also the ones that decided to bolt everything they could on to the Realms and impose the sometimes silly Code of Ethics on the setting.
While I will agree that the majority of the bad things that have happened to the setting have been caused by WotC having to answer to a higher power, I'm doubting that's the only reason. For example, I'm thinking Hasbro said to WotC, "Increase sales. Decrease costs." I'm doubting that Hasbro said to WotC, "Blow up a setting, and chuck out the window everything that made it successful for 20 years." That decision was almost certainly made at the WotC level, in response to the "Mo' money, mo' money!" mandate from above. They certainly could have done other things to increase revenue -- I'm of the opinion that failing to devote massive resources to the mythical virtual gaming table is going to prove to be a costly mistake. I think that one thing would have revitalized the hobby far in excess of anything else they've done. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 22:42:05
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| I agree with you Wooly that WotC has devoted a lot of resources to the Virtual Gaming Table. I just don't think that they devoted enough. I think that the whole DDi is woefully under resourced and that, ultimately, is why I think it's going to fail. |
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Topic |
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The main differences between Paizo and WoTC?
