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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 01:42:50

I have seen those stats. Although at this time, I cannot remember which issue number it was.

If anyone has an idea of which issue number the stats for Bahamut are in, let me know.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 01:49:24

For those with an interest in Dragonlance, I am thinking about using the Draconian stats from 3e as a basis for this new Mithril Dragon PC race that we are crafting. Although I would like some thoughts on this?.

I do not mean to say that I will be using the stats exactly, just using them as a convenient starting point. Afterall Draconians are really Dragons, well mostly, if you don't include the evil perversion of good dragons eggs to actually spawn these vile creatures.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 15:26:12

Has anyone realised that the Dragon Disciple PrC has now moved to the 3.5 DMG.

Why do you think it was moved?. Do you think it will encourage more players to use it?.

Targon Moonrise
Learned Scribe

163 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 17:47:45

I saw the move.The poicture for it is a bit less than I expected but I kinda like the class. I think poeple might look at the class a bit more now it's in the DMG.

May Melkor smile upon every spell you cast.

Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 23:13:37

quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth

Has anyone realised that the Dragon Disciple PrC has now moved to the 3.5 DMG.

Why do you think it was moved?. Do you think it will encourage more players to use it?.

They moved alot of those classes to the DMG. Even alot of the FR ones like Archmage. They have some new ones I like as well. They probably did that because it was popular. I don't allow Dragon Disciple, I really am not too fond of the concept.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 04:14:40

Why is that?.

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 06:28:26

Well, remember, he isn't too fond of half-whatevers.

Personally, I think it's a halfway useless class as it is. Not completely, but I don't think I'd use it.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 06:56:44

I sometimes suffer from being a classic fantasy gamer. I really don't like when people play monster characters (though one of the best characters in my game has been a WEMIC) and for me a half-dragon is SO FAR into the monster category it should be off limits to PC's. If one reaches the top level of this prestige class, they are far above any other character. a 10th level sorcerer/10th level disciple is sheer DEATH. Extra hit dice, increase of hit die type(as per half dragon template), and then when you GET the template you get an ADDITIONAL +4 in strength, and some other + to abilities. The template grants a +8 to strength (total) if you actually make it to level 10. If you add your level up bonuses to strenght as well this means your character gets a (+13!!!!) to str. Lets say for the sake of argument you rolled an 18 strength. Now you have a STR of 31????? Forgive me, but how is this class even VAGUELY balanced. When I got tome and blood I wrote in red ink, not available to PC's just INCASE any player of mine got the idea. Then I saw it in 3.5 DMG and I thought: great! It is going to be even harder to keep the whining down. I really think the Disciple is munchkinism at its worst. I only have one player wanting to play it, and I will not under any circumstances allow it until the rest of the party gets to EPIC level, at which time he can start as a LVL 1 disciple. My roomates who are real anal on balance allowed the class which surprised me to no end. So far it seems like I am the only one who wil not allow this class.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 08:32:45

I thought it needed a lot of reworking, but hadn't really thought of it in that term. Hmm . . . maybe Dungeon Hackers, Ltd., should take a look at it?

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 09:39:37

Actually in a way, when I first read the Dragon Disciple PrC, it reminded me alot of the transformation the Defilers from the Dark Sun campaign setting undergo when they approach 20th level...when they cast off their human forms and become Dragons/Dragon Sorcerer Kings. Although considering that transformation took around ten levels (20th-to-30th), it matches in a lot of ways, the abilities and changes granted by the Dragon Disciple PrC.

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 09:55:08

Maybe one of the fixes should be to move the prerequisites higher?

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 13:53:16

I was thinking about that. Maybe something like Knowledge (arcana) 14+ ranks, and maybe another skill, or a feat. And even though ability scores are not meant to be used as requirements, I think for this PrC, it may be necessary.

You really can't change alot though without changeing some of the other aspects of the class. I was going to suggest an alignment requirement, but considering the type of dragons involved with the class, it really doesn't work.

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 13:58:51

Another bit would be that all changes to ability scores gained by the increase in levels of the class wouldn't stack with those granted by taking on the half-dragon template. That partially gets rid of that particular issue of Mournblade's . . . .

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 15:46:34

That would have to be the one major and definite change. If nothing else this would at least de-power the class and bring it more into line with more respectable PrC.

I was also thinking of maybe a requirement for a specific number of ranks in the spellcraft skill, since we are talking about an arcane spellcaster...maybe something along the line of 12+.

Mythander
Learned Scribe

USA
121 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 19:59:56

I am a

Ruby Dragon

In the war between good and evil, Ruby Dragons take the side of the noble and good.
When it comes to the powers of Chaos vs. those of Law and Order, your inner dragon walks a fine line between Law and Chaos.
As far as magical tendancies, Your inner dragon has the ability to conquer the world of magic, but it will not be easy.
During combat situations, a true Ruby Dragon prefers to defeat opponents by the use of spells and other tactics.
Dragon Description:

The Ruby Dragon makes its home in lush forests with lots of flowers and abundant animal life. They treasure colorful things and bright sunshine.
Appearing as a translucent ruby, it is a beautiful thing to see one as one flies overhead. The suns ray's pass through the dragon's body creating a deep red shadow. It's scales magnify the suns rays into bright ruby red beams to highlight this effect.
Ruby Dragons harbor a great thirst for travel and foreign places, but always long to come home, for their home is their castle and refuge. A Ruby Dragons temper is fired up by injustice, and when a Ruby Dragon feels it is right, it is terribly difficult to change its opinion. Ruby Dragons appreciate creativity and artful thinking.
This Dragons favorite elements are: Rubies, Sunlight, and Wisdom

Wow! That has no saving throw written all over it.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 04:29:40

Interesting. I have never seen that result from the quiz before.

Anyway, more in thinking with the alterations to the Dragon Disciple PrC, I was thinking of taking into consideration, psionics. This was the one thing I liked about the DS Dragon Sorcerer King conversion. The character slowly gained psionic powers as he developed. Maybe, we should take away some of the greater abilities and bonuses granted by this class and replace it with some low-level psionic powers, it might be interesting to see the reesult. I am going to re-read the psionic powers section of the Sorcerer King conversion and maybe take some suggestions from there.

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 06:40:46

Looks like most people on here that have taken that quiz turn out to be Neutral Good. I do find it a bit interesting that they don't stick to the traditional species-type/alignment trend: Metalics are good, chromatics are evil, gems are neutral. Instead, Ruby dragons are good, as are Crimsons. (Which is what my brother came out as when I filled in what I thought his would be.)

I've never paid any attention to the psionic powers. I guess I should take a look sometime . . . .

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 08:16:58

I was really only thinking of psionics as an alternative to magic. I am of the firm belief that only in the most rarest of cases, should psionics and magics be placed together in the same PC. It has great potential for abuse.

Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 20:35:42

WEll as anyone that has played along time on ATHAS knows, the balance is WAY to the POWER SIDE of things. It works for dark sun. NOT the realms. The sorceror kings were also a STORY element as well essentially being the GODS of the world. I think you are right in that the dragon disciple is derived from the Sorceror kings but I am having trouble placing it in the realms.

A good balancer might be something like they did with the archmage: A spell focus feat (actualy two) and then a skill focus: Spellcraft. I think those three feats put a nice balance on the archmage, and you do have to make a sacrifice to become an archmage. Think about it those could be used for item feats or metamagic feats as well.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 03:08:36

Hmm...that's interesting. I'll take that into consideration.

What do you think about psionics though, Mournblade, at least in the terms of this character class. Could it be reworked under a psionics system instead of being purely magical based?.

Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 18:40:42

I think psionics worked well for Darksun. I am still neutral on it for Forgotten Realms though. Not against it, but still not sure if I can fit it in. I did before with the old system, but I don't know if we need a new magic system.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 02:27:11

That's interesting. I really haven't made that much use of 3e psionics in my campaigns either. Although in 2e, the Complete Psionics Handbook was one of my more used tomes. I wonder why that is the case.

Although WotC might be trying to instill some greater interest in psionics, since they announced a revised and expanded 'Psionics Handbook' due for release in the middle of next year.

Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 06:11:35

Though Dark sun was an incredible campaign setting, I suspected that it was created as a reason for people to buy the COMPLETE PSIONICIST.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 06:21:13

You may be right there.

Anyway if you are interested, the official Dark Sun website has just released their DS3e project. For the most part it is quite good, although it draws too heavily in some parts on some of the older Dark Sun products that were poorly handled to begin with. If you are interested let me know and I will provide the link.

Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 06:36:37

quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth

You may be right there.

Anyway if you are interested, the official Dark Sun website has just released their DS3e project. For the most part it is quite good, although it draws too heavily in some parts on some of the older Dark Sun products that were poorly handled to begin with. If you are interested let me know and I will provide the link.

I might have the link... But please do so, I love DARK SUN.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 06:44:19

Okay...here is the link. It is in the news section of the main page. Also depending upon your connection it is a 16MB download. There is also some other DS material for download that you may find interesting, like a reworking of the Tyr Conspiracy module and a few netbooks as well.

Enjoy,