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Kosta the Lich
Acolyte
United Kingdom
11 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Sep 2008 : 22:17:58
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Hello to everyone I'm new to the forum with many questions I would like to ask.
I have forgotten about the Realms for few years due to my college duties but decided to return to it recently. To say the truth I got introduced to the Realms at the dawn of the 2e in a place where material was scarce {I'm originally form Southern Bohemia in the Czech Republic]. This has changed [including the place I live at] with the coming of the 3e and I welcomed it. I still have some of the 2e and some earlier 3e material and was wishing that my return to the Realms would uncover a wealth of source books somewhat similar to the one for the second edition. My hopes have not materialized. If the 2e Realms are detailed to the maximum degree, the 3e only scratches the surface.
Now they have prematurely released something called the 4e and that something I am not going to spend my money on. I have decided to salvage all the good from the 3e and even from the 2e before it all goes into oblivion. However I am puzzled by one thing. A hint of hope from Ed.
In his own words:
"I intend to go on exploring the Realms, bringing us all more detail. Some of it in the “now” Realms, and some of it in the “new” Realms."
Does that mean this is not the end of Realms as we know it? Does that mean that the wealth of material that has not been amassed in the years of the 3e will still come in one form or another?
Mod Edit: Altered scroll title to better reflect content.
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Minsc and Boo stand ready to polish my boots. |
Edited by - The Sage on 15 Sep 2008 00:45:05
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 01:30:31
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| You should perhaps ask this of Ed himself. While I have a feeling that NDAs may lurk somewhere near this subject at the moment, he may be able to elaborate somewhat on what he said earlier. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 08:14:08
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| I'd love to hear about that new "now" stuff myself... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 16:19:30
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It would be interesting if they began to 'back-peddle' on their original intentions.
The only reasoning I could possinbly see for that is that sales are being affected (gamebooks, or novels? Or perhaps both?) And thats just an assumption, mind you.
As much as I would love new pre-Spellplague lore, I'm not sure how I feel about this.
After they basically slapped us all in the face and told us to "go away", should we be willing to spend our money on new pre-plague products or articles?
If they have somehow come to the conclusion that 4e FR was a mistake (and I'm not so sure they have), should we be that forgiving?
I'm undecided about this........ |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Sep 2008 16:20:22 |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 16:25:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It would be interesting if they began to 'back-peddle' on their original intentions.
The only reasoning I could possinbly see for that is that sales are being affected (gamebooks, or novels? Or perhaps both?) And thats just an assumption, mind you.
As much as I would love new pre-Spellplague lore, I'm not sure how I feel about this.
After they basically slapped us all in the face and told us to "go away", should we be willing to spend our money on new pre-plague products or articles?
If they have somehow come to the conclusion that 4e FR was a mistake (and I'm not so sure they have), should we be that forgiving?
I'm undecided about this........
I have to agree with you. Over the last few months I have all but given up on the Realms. I stopped reading the newer novels and have picked up some Star Wars stuff and mysteries. I haven't played in awhile and am thinkin of going Star Wars Saga for any RPG fix. I don't even really post here and on WoTC much the last couple of weeks.
If they did a complete retcon, maybe I would jump back in smiling, but just publishing some stuff, an article here and there, I doubt that |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Kosta the Lich
Acolyte
United Kingdom
11 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 20:39:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It would be interesting if they began to 'back-peddle' on their original intentions.
The only reasoning I could possinbly see for that is that sales are being affected (gamebooks, or novels? Or perhaps both?) And thats just an assumption, mind you.
As much as I would love new pre-Spellplague lore, I'm not sure how I feel about this.
After they basically slapped us all in the face and told us to "go away", should we be willing to spend our money on new pre-plague products or articles?
If they have somehow come to the conclusion that 4e FR was a mistake (and I'm not so sure they have), should we be that forgiving?
I'm undecided about this........
I would buy any healthy stuff that comes out, I can't just give up on Realms because a bunch of corporate rats decided to make it look like World of Warcraft, anticipating it would boost sales. The healthy Realms are just such an addictive phenomena.
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Minsc and Boo stand ready to polish my boots. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 00:45:44
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Here is Ed's follow-up:-
"Hello again, all. I bring you the words of Ed in response to Kosta the Lich:
Hi, Kosta. You've raised a question that a LOT of gamers have been asking me and various folks at Wizards. Here's the straight answer: the future plans of the company are unknown to me - - and, I suspect, not set in stone; sales will govern all. However, as of right now, the emphasis on all future published Realmslore will be 4e. As in: we've made the century jump, and the lore that's needed is the "new" Realms we find around us now.
However, brief flashbacks in some novels, and some ongoing fiction series (notably Bob Salvatore's Transitions trilogy, and my just-finishing Knights trilogy) are still "in the past." I have promised to wrap up the Border Kingdoms articles, in the "free" part of the WotC website, and they are set in the past (i.e. in 3e, just pre-Spellplague on the timeline). Wizards has agreed to publish this, though many of the staffers I dealt with have since been let go. If in time to come when I get the BK finished, Wizards for any reason doesn't want to host the completed file, I intend to publish it here. [The original Realms agreement allows me to do such things, though I suspect the Hasbro legal folks won't be happy - - but then, they haven't approached me to renegotiate the agreement to prevent such publications. I'm hoping they'll just tack it on to the existing BK web-columns, put them all together in a big .doc file, and provide it on the WotC website for free.]
I also intend to go right on answering lore queries here in this thread, and right now I'm a lot better at answering "old timeline location" Realmslore queries than I am the "new" Realms of 4e. I intend to go right on answering 3e-time queries for as long as scribes ask such questions. That won't get you full-length products, but it will get you lore coverage that any DM (if scribes ask the right questions and follow-up questions) quite enough to run a particular Realms locale or facet of Realms life in game play.
We all die sometime, and Wizards could indeed find ways to stop me (the easy way is just to keep me so blamed busy with writing new stuff that I don't have time to answer the queries THO constantly ferries into my lap, because such writing is how I earn my living), but as I type this, I don't intend to stop doing this. In other words, for those whose campaigns are still pre-Spellplague, I intend to "be there" for you.
I also have much 3e-current lore (e.g. Cormyr, the completely detailed city of Teziir) that's essentially complete, but has been "orphaned" by the time-jump, and am looking to WotC for some answers as to when and how we'll see this lore published.
For one thing, if you have a campaign you and your fellow participants are enjoying, set pre-Spellplague, why abandon that? Just keep on playing; you have almost a hundred years (or even more, if your timeline hadn't quite reached the date of A GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS) before the 4e Realms game products become fully relevant. The Spellplague isn't a moving curtain that proceeds across Faerun changing everything; it takes years to spread, affecting some areas greatly and others scarcely at all. So play can easily go on for another DECADE of real time before the Spellplague becomes more than a source of rumors and wild tales of stuff that's happened "somewhere else in the world," plus a lot of worry high up in priesthoods (and more rumors, for everyone else).
So as your lore queries arise, I'll still be here to answer them.
That's how I see things as of now. So, all Realms fans, keep those questions coming . . .
So saith Ed. Who has Been There for us all, for nigh-forty years now.
love to all,
THO" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 01:03:58
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I'm really thrilled to see Ed's take on this. To me, this means there's still hope. If Ed communicates these thoughts to WotC (he probably already has) then there's no way WotC can ignore this in the long run (emphasis on long, as it's too late to save the 4E Realms IMHO).
Whoever manages the FR IP at WotC is bound to recognize the common sense in listening and heeding to Ed's words on this, and perhaps in time even enable a major retcon, alternate dimension or DAWN CATACLYSM on that whole bad nightmare of a Sellplague. To not do so would be to go the way of Dragonlance, and anyone in the biz will remember the good novel sales from that line, when the setting made sense...
At least I hope so. If it doesn't happen, that would be a shame, but all good things must come to an end, in the end... I just hope the "real" Realms end is far, far away, as opposed to "it's been done, we're not coming back, and we're digging our heels into that fine, marvelous Sellplague muck." |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 13:02:42
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Don't hold your breath Purple Dragon Knight. 
Don't forget that in this brave new corporate world, corporations don't make mistakes. 'FR has the Spellplague, FR has always had the Spellplague.'
I'm overjoyed and very grateful to Ed for what he's doing, I just don't think we'll get anything from WotC. |
Edited by - arry on 15 Sep 2008 13:04:56 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 16:28:24
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
I'm overjoyed and very grateful to Ed for what he's doing...
As am I. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 17:57:55
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| Yeah, I hope he realises this. At the moment, the bright spots on the horizon are the new articles him, Richard and the other authors are providing. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 00:07:46
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Until they start charging for the DDi, and most of us here don't hop onboard.
I have no idea if the DDi will fail (although I have my suspicians), but the only people I can see paying for that are people who are firmly entrenched in 4e (both rules and setting).
What would be the point of providing articles for a sub-set of people who aren't going to be able to read them? 
Right now, while it is still free, pre-Spellplague articles make some sense, but after it goes pay-for-View, they make no sense what-so-ever.
At least, thats how I'm seeing it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Sep 2008 00:08:50 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 06:26:14
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| I dearly hope that Ed's articles will be published before the start charging for the DDi. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 12:15:34
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| I am wondering if Ed will be working on an expanded sourcebook on returned Abeir to flesh that more out (it is his, isn't it?) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 12:21:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I am wondering if Ed will be working on an expanded sourcebook on returned Abeir to flesh that more out (it is his, isn't it?)
AFAIK no it isn't; the copyright is owned by WotC. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 12:26:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
I dearly hope that Ed's articles will be published before the start charging for the DDi.
So do I, but don't bet on it. Ed's articles are popular, you think that WotC won't delay publication of them until they are charging for DDI? |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 14:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I am wondering if Ed will be working on an expanded sourcebook on returned Abeir to flesh that more out (it is his, isn't it?)
AFAIK no it isn't; the copyright is owned by WotC.
Sorry, I was in a rush typing...I meant, it is created by him right? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
Edited by - Alisttair on 16 Sep 2008 14:37:08 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 14:38:32
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| From what I understand, Returned Abeir was indeed detailed by Ed. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 15:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
From what I understand, Returned Abeir was indeed detailed by Ed.
Was it mentioned anywhere that it came from his original notes from way back when (or at least, most of it)? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 15:54:52
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Returned Abeir (the concept) was created by someone at Wizards, and they asked Ed (the master worldbuilder, who has the knack of making places he creates seem "real") to detail it. He did, though I'm afraid he didn't have wordcount enough to do a proper job, and though he kept to the lengths given to him, stuff (e.g. Gontal) was chopped to make room for other material added to the FRCG later. Ed didn't edit his R-Abeir stuff; such editing is done in-house.
I have in the past (as a sometime editor myself) compared with interest an original Ed paragraph and an edited Ed paragraph. Ed's "raw" writing is rich, colorful, and evokes images in the reader's mind, spurring excitement and gaming ideas. Ed edited is sometimes bland, flat, and too "empty" for my tastes.
love to all,
THO |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 16:02:37
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| Thanks for the info THO. It's too bad there is a limit on word count, as it would be simply marvelous to get full fledged, un-edited, Ed detailed information on people and places. Edited Ed still manages to be far superior to some other material found elsewhere, which is a testament to the ammount of greatness that emanates from his imagination. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 16:34:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I have in the past (as a sometime editor myself) compared with interest an original Ed paragraph and an edited Ed paragraph. Ed's "raw" writing is rich, colorful, and evokes images in the reader's mind, spurring excitement and gaming ideas. Ed edited is sometimes bland, flat, and too "empty" for my tastes.
Anyone else interested can compare the 1988 and 2002 editions of Spellfire. My job as an editor is to help authors' writing be their writing; doing the reverse is a hack job, not to mention a laborious waste of time. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 17:09:48
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| I have read the 2002 edition of Spellfire but never read the original. Personally I prefer Ed's overall writing for Game Supplements over his novel writing (as I have experienced some of his novels as a little hard to follow and others as master pieces....I think his extended portrayal of minor characters that have nothing to do with the plot would be easier to experience in a movie, or maybe its just me having not had the opportunity to read certain of his novels in fewer sittings, as its harder to follow when it takes a month to read a book...which was the case when I read those due to RL circumstances - lots of lore in said novel writing style though)....but FR Regional books by Ed = #1 for me. For example on that, Elminster: The Making of a Mage I enjoyed (twice), but had difficulties following the story in Temptation of Elminster (at least at the time, we'll see when I read the Annotated Elminster if mayhaps my "reading" abilities have evolved). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 18:23:49
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| The first edit hacked up the plots and the Realms idiom; the second restored some of the plots and hacked the prose instead. Abundant subplots are a matter of plotting style, and setting: it would falsify the Realms to write a novel-length book with just a single overriding story. Those characters you mention are not minor, and they're part of 'the plot', and I think that's one of the most important characteristics of the Realms. In fact, too many movies prune down screenplays to monodirectional, often artificial or solipsistic simplifications of what stories are. But it is a fiction editor's job to help authors clarify structure, which is another matter than rewriting them line-by-line to take out the barbs and unusual phrasings that help make up their style. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 23:25:48
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The poor editting shows in the sourcbooks as well as the novels lately. Its fairly obvious that parts of the FRCG was written during different stages of development, and some 'changes' slipped through the cracks. The lack on consistency and flavor is just a small part of the editorial hack-job to rush this thing out the door.
And with three years, why DOES it look like a rush-job? They really need to see what other companies are producing so they can idea of what a polished product looks like these days.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
<snip> I have in the past (as a sometime editor myself) compared with interest an original Ed paragraph and an edited Ed paragraph. Ed's "raw" writing is rich, colorful, and evokes images in the reader's mind, spurring excitement and gaming ideas. Ed edited is sometimes bland, flat, and too "empty" for my tastes.
love to all,
THO
Thank You for explaining that. I really don't care for Abeir (I'm still rather confused by it's unnecessary inclusion), and I have never before 'not' enjoyed something written by Ed.
I suppose it's like watching the movie Animal House on regular 'broadcast' TV. All the juicy bits get lost in translation. 
Personally, I (and I'm sure many others here) were eagerly awaiting the announced stuff on Anchorome that never saw fruition. I hope that if Ed ever does get around to giving us some Anchorome lore, it comes through CK or some other 'personal' channel, and not through the 'grist mill' that WotC editting has become.
Taking all the flavor out of Fantasy... now there's a bizarre new take on things. I remember when the whole idea of fantasy was to escape from the mundane.
Ah, well... the times, they are a' changin'. <sigh> |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Sep 2008 23:27:02 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 03:24:11
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| Time flies, so people hurry so as to make as much money as possible. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 07:08:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I have in the past (as a sometime editor myself) compared with interest an original Ed paragraph and an edited Ed paragraph. Ed's "raw" writing is rich, colorful, and evokes images in the reader's mind, spurring excitement and gaming ideas. Ed edited is sometimes bland, flat, and too "empty" for my tastes.
Anyone else interested can compare the 1988 and 2002 editions of Spellfire. My job as an editor is to help authors' writing be their writing; doing the reverse is a hack job, not to mention a laborious waste of time.
I haven't purchased Spellfire yet... which version do you recommend??? |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 07:17:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Time flies, so people hurry so as to make as much money as possible.
...and we can see what that "building card towers as rapidly as you can so one or two fat company execs can leap off the top with a golden parachute just in time to see the tower crumble underneath and bring down 90% of shareholders/employees/customers with it" has done to the U.S. economy, as of late...
People - nay, society as a whole! - currently have a very dire need to heed the wake up calls shown by the results of their decadent lifestyles (i.e. living on credit permanently, banks crumbling down, whole towns shutting down because of unaffordable/too easy to get mortgages, etc.)
People need to start building with stone and brick again, and leave the card towers alone for a while... (in the context of this discussion, this means WotC needs to make a serious house cleaning, and start hiring people of shorter resumes perhaps, but of unending passion for their work...) |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 08:59:02
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quote:
Taking all the flavor out of Fantasy... now there's a bizarre new take on things. I remember when the whole idea of fantasy was to escape from the mundane.
I like that, good way of saying everything about what they have done with few words.
Great quote material.
*Edited to fix a spelling error* |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
Edited by - Nilus Reynard on 17 Sep 2008 09:03:18 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 14:01:17
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Having thought about it further, I think the "portrayal of minor characters" thing I talked about is not in reference to the small stories of Mirt and all of em in say, Elminster in Hell, but rather, the extended pages of story on a minor guard. As to this, I think that you more or less have to be ready for it. Spending a few pages talking about and seeing a conversation between two lowly guards that show up only on those few pages speaks volumes about the fact that FR is a vast, living world. I think that if you dive into an Ed novel, if you are not accustomed to or ready to read about a few people here and there that have little to nothing to do with the plot of the story, that can throw you off, but if you know what to expect, than that added lore is excellent to get a better feel for the realms, which Ed is great at doing. I think this is also why I had more trouble following the plot of the stories in my earlier reading days, whereas now I can follow it and even appreciate it even more, because I know what to expect. Ed Greenwood, my fellow Ontarian, is a brilliant storyteller with a style all his own (from my experience at least, which is limited to a wee bit of Tolkien and A LOT of FR).
Now about the world going fast, I agree with the many points listed. The world is going way too fast and its hard to keep up. We all experienced it with the quick leaps from 3E to 3.5E and into 4E all in less than a decade. Elves and Dwarves would most definately balk at how fast we are going through these, not taking the time to fully digest each edition. I have a library full of 3/3.5E books that I have NEVER used yet. Thankfully I was able to pick a few things here and there from some of them for some games. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 16:06:38
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| It's good to see that the Realms will live here on Candlekeep. |
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Ed exploring the "now" and "new" Realms
