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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 21:54:56
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Okay, for about the hundredth time - there is a difference between game mechanics "High Magic" (as showcased first in Elves of Evermeet and then in Cormanthyr) and lore "High Magic".
With the advent of the 3E rules (and even into the 4E rules with rituals), "High Magic" was a term of nomenclature, not a separate type of magic in and of itself. It was epic magic, practiced by the elves in their own unique, particular way. That didn't mean however that an elven "High Magic" epic spell couldn't be cast or replicated by other races/individuals. To consider such to be the case would be to argue that the elves created 'magic missile' first and so no other race/individual could ever cast that spell.
In that sense, Rich Baker's thread of lore he put into his Myth Drannor novel trilogy, namely that there were several "High Magic" elven, spellcasting traditions (i.e. the Vyshaan had their own particular method/type of epic spellcasting that they called "High Magic" as did the elves of Miyeritar, Keltormir, Shantel Othreier, et. al.) is a more accurate reflection of the diversity and 'parallel development' theme of magic that Ed has espoused since the inception of the Realms.
It's all epic magic if you are using 3E rules and its all rituals if you are using 4E rules. Only if you are still playing 2E can you state that "High Magic" is a separate, elves only system of spellcasting and magic and thereby pick holes in what has come after in the novels - novels which were written in the context of the 3E rules, I might add.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 05 Nov 2008 21:56:11 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 00:00:15
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With respect, George, I disagree with that reasoning. We had a version of epic magic in 2e. It was called True Dweomers from DM's Option. Actually, they're really close to what epic magic turned into. But they aren't EHM, and EHM weren't true dweomers.
In 3e, they tried to shoe-horn everything under the epic magic heading. While I mostly respect your decision to try and include everything ever published, I think a line has to be drawn on really badly thought-out lore. Not just stuff you think could have been more elegant, but stuff that makes you sit back and go, "Wow, that person really has no idea what they're talking about." The infamous "Elves know epic magic, they call them mythals" comment fits here.
Given all of the above, I believe it makes *at least* as much sense to conclude that EHM and Epic Magic are two totally separate things. After all, we seem to have eight different ways of doing just about everything else (two Weaves, I don't even know how many "alternate magic" casters), why can't there be two or more forms of magic above 9th? Especially when it makes more sense than the glop that was published? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 02:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Given all of the above, I believe it makes *at least* as much sense to conclude that EHM and Epic Magic are two totally separate things.
I always thought "High Magic" was not just the epic part of the spell, but rather the entire elven ritual involved in it's casting. The only difference in the magic is the process itself.
If I recall, the canon explicitly states somewhere that this is why Elven High magic and the Netherese 10+ spells were effectively the same end result, but just with different methods of getting there. The Netherese used the 'shortcut' provided by the Nether Scrolls, and the Elven High mages (not all, mind you!) were using the 'correct' method of casting such powerful dweomers. The key point is that epic magic and elven high magic are methods of achieving the same end result (a wicked powerful spell).
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
why can't there be two or more forms of magic above 9th?
Because Mystra decided that the only spells that could be cast above 9th would be metamagicked lower level spells and Epic spells? |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 23:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Given all of the above, I believe it makes *at least* as much sense to conclude that EHM and Epic Magic are two totally separate things.
-Elven High Magic is a specific "school"- for a lack of better words- of Epic Magic. Only Elves have access to Epic Spells that are denoted as 'Elven High Magic', thus only Elves can cast such magic. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 06 Nov 2008 23:14:27 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 23:13:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ifthir
If I recall, the canon explicitly states somewhere that this is why Elven High magic and the Netherese 10+ spells were effectively the same end result, but just with different methods of getting there. The Netherese used the 'shortcut' provided by the Nether Scrolls, and the Elven High mages (not all, mind you!) were using the 'correct' method of casting such powerful dweomers. The key point is that epic magic and elven high magic are methods of achieving the same end result (a wicked powerful spell).
-Epic Magic uses the power of the Weave and the individual(s) casting the spell to power it. True Dweomers (10th+ Level spells) use the power of the Weave to to power them. In the end, the results are more or less the same (as in, the effect caused by the spell), but there are two different routes to get to them. Epic Magic is less draining on the Weave, in that it uses both the power of the Weave and the power of the caster (via EXP costs). True Dweomers drew directly from the Weave, bypassing draining the caster.
-From Mystryl/Mystra's point of view, Epic Magic was the better of the two, because it was less taxing on her. From the caster's point of view, True Dweomers are better, because they are less taxing on them. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 06 Nov 2008 23:13:23 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2008 : 01:53:29
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I've already said my piece and don't see the point in arguing as I understand that people have fairly strong and fixed views on this topic. The only comment I'll make is that I never considered 'true dweomers' to be a part of the 2E Realms. As I recall, they were a very late development in the 2E rules set and I can't recall a reference to them in any 2E FR product. I know that Ed had mentioned them as did Eric in LEoF but I know that the two of them did it because they are "inclusionists", never wanting to stop a player/DM from using anything in the game for their FR campaigns. I'm happy to stand corrected on that though.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2008 : 04:53:21
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| The Realmslore discussing supernormal magic in terms of 10th-level spells, true dweomers, epic magic and so on is all so tied to passing rules ideas, so entwined with uncertain rules artefacts, that I don't take any of it very seriously when it draws these kinds of distinctions (similarly, I don't really believe 'clerics' and 'specialty priests' are distinct in the Realms). |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2008 : 14:50:59
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I've already said my piece and don't see the point in arguing as I understand that people have fairly strong and fixed views on this topic. The only comment I'll make is that I never considered 'true dweomers' to be a part of the 2E Realms. As I recall, they were a very late development in the 2E rules set and I can't recall a reference to them in any 2E FR product. I know that Ed had mentioned them as did Eric in LEoF but I know that the two of them did it because they are "inclusionists", never wanting to stop a player/DM from using anything in the game for their FR campaigns. I'm happy to stand corrected on that though.
-- George Krashos
I don't know if or to what extent they included true dweomers in the 2E stuff, but as has been alluded to earlier in the thread, in the 3E material it says that Mystra no longer allows spells of greater than 10th level. So it implies that she did at some point, but I haven't read many 2E FR sourcebooks, so I don't know how well they were incorporated. |
Edited by - ranger_of_the_unicorn_run on 10 Dec 2008 14:51:34 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Stranjer
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 19:50:03
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quote:
-Correct (Though, The Lady Penitent Trilogy conveniently ignores this fact, or misrepresents what the Drow Magi are casting as Elven High Magic). Selu'Taar, when joining in circles, are able to cast Elven High Magic rituals because of (A) Their magical prowess, and (B) the communion of the various minds and spirits of the casters. Drow, in lacking that innate pseudo-spiritual connection to one another, like most other Elves have, cannot link their minds and spirits as Selu'Taar, and thus, cannot wield Elven High Magic. They can cast Epic Spells that look, act and smell like Elven High Magic spells, but they would not be using Elven High Magic itself.
Now, i havent been around for a while, as far as realmslore goes, so I may have came about after certain rulebooks had established facts. But I remember one of the most obvious references to being able to mentally link their minds and spirits was engaging in Reverie, which some drow(though not most) do actually still do. |
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Non-elven Mythals?
