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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11800 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 18:02:04
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Got in my 4e FR campaign guide. I see Szass Tam tried to do some ritual that would have elevated him in power but was stopped by the remaining Zulkirs. I also see the Simbul is believed to have died in a fiery death whenever Velsharoon was destroyed. Anyone find anything where these two events might be related? I know the book will be out soon, but just figured might be interesting to see what's in plot.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 14:38:35
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| I don't know, but I'm guessing somewhere down the line Szass Tam might take over Velsharoon's old post as god of Necromancers or maybe become an Exarch or something. We'll see what the designers decide on that as time goes on however. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 15:32:49
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Velsharoon and the Simbul are Szass Tam's greatest foes. If Unholy is released and neither it nor the other novels in the series manage to mention either of them at least once--not even in passing reference--then I think it will be one of the largest wastes of Realmslore to date.
As for what caused Velsharoon's demise, I can imagine two possible scenarios:
A) Velsharoon seeks to restore or enhance his diminished divinity, by slaying the remaining Seven Sisters and absorbing the residual divine spark within them (conveniently in the Year of Seven Sisters). The Simbul--ever the bane of all Red Wizards--destroys him in battle by calling upon the last remnants of Mystra's fire within her, and she is believed by many to have perished with the demigod in the conflagration.
B) Szass Tam ensnares Velsharoon--his greatest enemy--using a powerful ritual and Thakorsil's seat, intending to destroy him with a variation of the ritual of twin burnings and use it to steal his divinity. He is stopped at the last moment by the surviving Zulkirs, the Simbul, Larloch, and other powerful mages--many of whom are believed to have perished in the ensuing conflagration. |
Edited by - The Simbul on 07 Sep 2008 15:40:48 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3242 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 17:35:40
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| Actually, Velsharoon (along with Azuth) were caught in the destruction of Dweomerheart. Reports are conflicting on exactly how Azuth died, and I haven't seen any published details on Velsharoon's death. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 18:27:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Actually, Velsharoon (along with Azuth) were caught in the destruction of Dweomerheart. Reports are conflicting on exactly how Azuth died, and I haven't seen any published details on Velsharoon's death.
This is basically another opportunity they missed, storywise, in making some sense of the events of the Spellplague... *SIGH*!  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 19:15:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Actually, Velsharoon (along with Azuth) were caught in the destruction of Dweomerheart. Reports are conflicting on exactly how Azuth died, and I haven't seen any published details on Velsharoon's death.
CG states in no uncertain terms, Asmodeus consumed Azuth after the later was drop-kicked helpless into Hell by aftershocks of Mystra going BOOM! (which is how big A-to-the-s got his divinity). |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
Edited by - keijemon on 07 Sep 2008 19:17:56 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 20:38:29
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The Simbul lives in Shadowdale according to the 4e book.
The Ritual Szass was conducting would have "elevated him above godhood" or some such...but they aren't specific...only that he has to conquer more territory to try it again now. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 05:12:25
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Neither Azuth nor Velsharoon were killed by the collapse of Dweomerheart. They were sent into other planes when Dweomerheart collapsed-- The Grand History of the Realms names the Astral Plane as the plane they were sent to
According to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, a wounded Azuth ended up in the Nine Hells and was slain by Asmodeus, who then stole his divinity in order to become a deity again. It bears noting that in the 4E cosmology the Nine Hells ARE part of the Astral Sea, and the cosmology shifts are a direct result immediate aftermath of Mystra's death, thus it is not necessarily conflicting lore there.
As for Velsharoon, the lore detailing his demise is only mentioned in the blurb that details the fate of the Simbul. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36791 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 12:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
According to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, a wounded Azuth ended up in the Nine Hells and was slain by Asmodeus, who then stole his divinity in order to become a deity again. It bears noting that in the 4E cosmology the Nine Hells ARE part of the Astral Sea, and the cosmology shifts are a direct result immediate aftermath of Mystra's death, thus it is not necessarily conflicting lore there.
...Except for the lore that states deities can not be killed by non-deities without deific help. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 14:46:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
According to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, a wounded Azuth ended up in the Nine Hells and was slain by Asmodeus, who then stole his divinity in order to become a deity again. It bears noting that in the 4E cosmology the Nine Hells ARE part of the Astral Sea, and the cosmology shifts are a direct result immediate aftermath of Mystra's death, thus it is not necessarily conflicting lore there.
...Except for the lore that states deities can not be killed by non-deities without deific help.
Except for the lore where *loths killed a god and used his spine to build a nice tower for themselves... so yeah. One good thing about 4e flipping the finger to the older lore is that we get to ditch those inconsistencies, and try very hard not to make too many new ones. Is there any lore that says that a god can't be killed by a non-divine being in 4e? Now that would derail the whole thing from the get go.
/EDIT: Actually I can answer that last part myself, there is mention in CG stating that primordials killed gods. Primordials are not gods, so in 4e you don't have to be a god or have a god help you to kill a god. |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
Edited by - keijemon on 08 Sep 2008 14:50:23 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31713 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 14:50:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
According to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, a wounded Azuth ended up in the Nine Hells and was slain by Asmodeus, who then stole his divinity in order to become a deity again. It bears noting that in the 4E cosmology the Nine Hells ARE part of the Astral Sea, and the cosmology shifts are a direct result immediate aftermath of Mystra's death, thus it is not necessarily conflicting lore there.
...Except for the lore that states deities can not be killed by non-deities without deific help.
Which has apparently fallen victim to the "newer lore trumps older lore" ruling. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 00:49:34
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Azuth appeared in the Nine Hells already wounded. It can be assumed that he was not simply standing around uselessly when Cyric attacked Mystra, and thus we can assume the "divine aid" needed to kill him could have been that he was already bloodied in the previous battle by the Prince of Lies.
In addition, the fact that Deities were given statistic blocks in 3E, replete with hitpoints, AC, immunities, and saves, certainly is enough to imply that they can in fact be killed by a mortal....difficult as it may be. |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 03:54:57
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So I've read through the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide and it slightly reiterates the same information on the Simbul and Velsharoon from the Campaign Guide...however the manner in which it is worded causes both of the theories and possibilities I posted above to be invalid/impossible.
Velsharoon was already dead and floating in the astral sea. The Simbul had ventured into the Astral Sea to seek his corpse, whereupon she was believed to have been destroyed by the conflagration that also destroyed his remains. How long he was dead we do not know, nor do we know her motivation in seeking his remains beyond a desire to keep his corpse out of evil hands.
That said, I suppose Szass Tam could have played some role in those events, either by seeking the divine corpse himself and thus prompting the Simbul to attempt to stop him or simply get to it first, or perhaps some evil forces using rumors of his floating remains as a way to lure her into a trap. |
Edited by - The Simbul on 12 Sep 2008 03:58:05 |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 14:49:25
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Some people have the book already, even if it hasn't been officially released yet. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 15:39:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Some people have the book already, even if it hasn't been officially released yet.
So it seems How do they get it? [no real need for answer] ... I can wait until the release date! |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 15:52:29
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I used a feeblemind spell on the bookseller.
Actually I had an opportunity to pick up Scepter Tower of Spellgard and Adventurer's Vault early as well, as all three tomes were on the shelf well over a week before the release date.
However, I originally had returned my 4E Core Rulebooks soon after buying them in June under the assumption that I was going to hate the 4E Realms completely--and thus had no desire to learn the 4E game rules. However my predictions regarding the 4E Realms turned out not to be quite so--thus I decided I could wait until later to acquire the adventure module until after I had regained access to the core game rules. |
Edited by - The Simbul on 15 Sep 2008 16:06:48 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 16:22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
However, I originally had returned my 4E Core Rulebooks soon after buying them in June under the assumption that I was going to hate the 4E Realms completely--and thus had no desire to learn the 4E game rules. However my predictions regarding the 4E Realms turned out not to be quite so--thus I decided I could wait until later to acquire the adventure module until after I had regained access to the core game rules.
Just out of curiosity, what changed your opinion about the 4E Realms? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 16:40:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
However, I originally had returned my 4E Core Rulebooks soon after buying them in June under the assumption that I was going to hate the 4E Realms completely--and thus had no desire to learn the 4E game rules. However my predictions regarding the 4E Realms turned out not to be quite so--thus I decided I could wait until later to acquire the adventure module until after I had regained access to the core game rules.
Just out of curiosity, what changed your opinion about the 4E Realms?
I actually plan to share this in an long thread/essay I will post both on these forums and in the Forgotten Realms General section of the Wizards of the Coast message boards. However it will take some time to compose it, and I hopefully would like to wait for any potential re-organizing of the forums there to occur first. |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 18:02:20
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| Ironically, my playing LFR and reading other people's copies of the books have LESSENED my desire to pick up the books - I was wavering quite a bit on the last day of GenconUK and would probably have picked up a copy if I could have found one. But now, upon reading me, and also realising that a lot of the lore in LFR scenarios is actually based upon the 1374-esque Realms, I have no desire to buy the 4e FRPG/FRCS. Ironic huh? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 18:33:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
I actually plan to share this in an long thread/essay I will post both on these forums and in the Forgotten Realms General section of the Wizards of the Coast message boards. However it will take some time to compose it, and I hopefully would like to wait for any potential re-organizing of the forums there to occur first.
Well, the Forgotten Realms General section is up now.
In any case I look forward to reading this essay. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 18:34:52
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quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
Ironically, my playing LFR and reading other people's copies of the books have LESSENED my desire to pick up the books - I was wavering quite a bit on the last day of GenconUK and would probably have picked up a copy if I could have found one. But now, upon reading me, and also realising that a lot of the lore in LFR scenarios is actually based upon the 1374-esque Realms, I have no desire to buy the 4e FRPG/FRCS. Ironic huh?
Maybe, although the same thing kinda happened to me--after looking through the FRCG, I became even less curious about the 4E Realms. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 18:24:19
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Wait, so 4e killed Velsharoon too? Another of my favorite Realmsian deities is dead?
Ah well, just one more reason to stay away from FR 4e. 
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Sailusj
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2008 : 19:18:54
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"whew" havent been on here in a while...I really miss it!
I havent read really anything from the 4e releases yet but my heart aches at the thought of it from everything i hear. |
"Oh dear God...What is that smell?!" |
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Velsharoon's Death & Szass Tam's Ritual
