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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 18:21:53
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With all people moaning about the clerics being oh so powerfull in 3E, as well as marking many of the AD&D specialty priests as too powerfull as well (while not keeping an eye on the major / minor spheres of access), I was thinking of reintroducing those said sphere into my 3,5E campaigns again, to curb the spellpower of the clerics somewhat, while handing them more individual skills and abilities.
While I have scanned Candlekeep a bit, I did not find any previous attempt to do this ... yet, before I start my own thing, I'd like to ask whether people have already gone that way and can provide the fruits of their ventures to work with?!
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Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 18:33:51
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| I can't think of any thread where this ever has been discussed on these boards.... Seriously, there's actually a topic that we haven't debated about? I'm shocked! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 19:49:21
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I'm not intentionally plugging Pathfinder here, but I do like how they handle both Cleric Domains and Specialty Wizards in the Alpha/Beta playtest rules. In the case of clerics, the domains give some special powers, instead of bonus spells. With the wizards, you again gain spell-like abilities instead of a blank +1 caster level and extra spell. Just another alternative you can look at.
Amazingly enough, I never really considered clerics 'broken' in 3E, probably because my groups have always made our groups well-balanced in both character creation and backstory. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 21:29:42
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Rest assured, I never considered clerics broken either. There were indeed - roleplaying-wise - very hampered, much like sorcerers. No class-skills, no skill points. All they can do is casting spells ... which is hardly always convenient.
We have a basis to work with with the spheres and specialty priests given to the deities in the Faiths & Avatars series, one only needs to get the spheres back into action and put the correct spells into them. Of course, there will be questions asked about this sphere and that deity, but that is always the case. Obviously, I would also keep the domains, for the time being, as they will make each faith more distinctive from one another. Add to that the initiate feats and a few skill points (not necessarily class skills) and the image of what I have in mind should be in front of you.
Any volunteers?  |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 24 Aug 2008 21:30:06 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 10:35:39
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I was pondering how one could quickly compile the cleric spells into spheres. One way is to group the spels into the diferent "wizard" schools and make a spherical disticntion in them, i.e. the type of casting manipulation and the effects of the cast spell can be linked to the spherical theme.
Evocation cleric spells can be devided into combat, war,sun and elemental spheres.
Abjuration can be combined into protection and combat spheres
Illusion into ...
Necromancy into healing and death spheres
Transmutation into magic,plant, change and elemental
Enchantment into nature, protection, domination
I might have forgotten some spheres and a school now... |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 25 Aug 2008 10:40:08 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 13:10:45
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I can simply copy my own houserules on clerics here, which more or less do what you asked for (but with work for the individual DM):
quote:
Cleric
The spellcasting capability of Clerics is modified in several ways to improve their connection with the chosen deity:
The spells for spontaneous spellcasting are changed from “cure” spells to spells of one of his domains, chosen at the creation of the character, but this may be changed through prayer and some sacrifice to be determined by the DM.
The number of known spells for each spell level is reduced from “all in existence” to “12 + caster level – min. level to cast spells of this level – spell level”.
Example: level 17 cleric:
12 + 17 – 17 – 9 = 3 level 9 spells;
12 + 17 – 1 – 1 = 27 level 1 spells.
Spells should be chosen in the theme of the deitys area of expertise – with several “basic choices” (all Clerics should have “Cure” spells, but only healing focused, peaceful or protective ones should have Remove Disease / Blindness, Restoration). Exceptional circumstances can allow for temporary (or rarely permanent) exceptions, such as a crusade allowing for battle spells for Clerics of otherwise rather peaceful deities.
I think a flexible formula is much better - even though it means work for the DM - because there are simply too many spells in existence and allowing all from a "theme" may be too many. I also love the saying: "less is more" and also would quote Elminster on this: "Perhaps. Yet, know ye, a mage can do more with a few simple spells he knows back-to-front, and can use shrewdly, than with an arsenal hastily memorized and poorly understood from any spellbook he may look at."*1 Even though he mentions mages I would say it applies to clerics as well.
While on the topic of "boring clerics": I think an absolutely brilliant alternative is the "cloistered cleric" from the Unearthed Arcana, which gives you a way to play a cleric without the usual "plate armor + shield" stereotype. While this version is for the bookworm-clerics there could be similar versions for peaceful deities like Sune for example.
I have the same rule for druid spells as well, who have "animals, plants, elements, fey" as their spcializations.
To give a little more importance to skills I also increased the skill points every class gets, so adventurers can get "adventuring skills" (cooking for example ... so your hunted food does not have a 50/50 chance of getting burned or tasting bad in some other way) too. Oh and the class skills are adjusted a bit as well.
*1: Novel Spellfire: pg. 259 |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 25 Aug 2008 13:16:23 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 22:23:03
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Of all the products in 2e FR, the faiths triad of books has to be my favorites. They keep trying to make priests better, or change them somehow, but they always try and come back to the goodness that is 2e F&A, P&P, and D&D.  |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 20:39:09
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| Each god and each regional and local priestly tradition has a unique set of prayer-spells, and personally I'd work on these directly rather than on some new permutation of the spheres or domains systems, which are just game-convenience approximations. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 00:02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Each god and each regional and local priestly tradition has a unique set of prayer-spells, and personally I'd work on these directly rather than on some new permutation of the spheres or domains systems, which are just game-convenience approximations.
That would leave you with about ... 150 spell-lists, wouldn't it? Well, I'm working on it, based on the old AD&D spheres system. To keep it running under normal 3E rules, the spells as such will remain the same and stay in the same "schools". They are just ranked a wee bit differently. Obviously, much of the "spheres per faith" work has been done in the F&A series. The alternative class to the core cleric will be the priest, who gets sphere access as if s/he was a specialty priest in AD&D plus certain extra stuff. Of course, some of them are better off than others, but that is the way of the world. In essence, priests will be the clerics of advanced gamers, much like the duskblades and hexblades are fighter/mages and fighters for advanced gamers - IMHO. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 28 Aug 2008 00:06:16 |
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AD&D Spheres of access in 3E
