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Waldham
Seeker
83 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 16:42:55
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Hello
Ghaunadar, is it an aspect of Tharizdun ?
Thanks for your future answer.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 18:23:20
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| I don't think it was ever meant to be. That said, things could have changed for 4E. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 19:23:05
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I'm surprised Ghaunadaur isn't primordial in 4e
wonder what happens to Jubilex |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 20:40:27
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Way back in the GHotR they announced that it was actually an elder deity. When Lloth tried to kill it, she was unsuccessful and rebuffed. Don't remember the page number though, books at home, and no electric copies of that one @ work.
A note to moderators, all of the Realms books that I have electronic copies of Realms supplement are either 2e ones that are free or are 3e ones that I own physical copies of, where does that fall in the CoC? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 20:49:00
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
A note to moderators, all of the Realms books that I have electronic copies of Realms supplement are either 2e ones that are free or are 3e ones that I own physical copies of, where does that fall in the CoC?
They are still copies of the books, regardless of the formats. If you quote them, you still need to cite page numbers and book titles.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 20:56:04
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Way back in the GHotR they announced that it was actually an elder deity. When Lloth tried to kill it, she was unsuccessful and rebuffed. Don't remember the page number though, books at home, and no electric copies of that one @ work
Ahem ... matter of factly, Lolth tried nothing with Ghaunadaur nor did she failed in killing him. TGHotR had info going along that line of thought, but the book it related too, Ascendancy of the Last made no mention of that whatsoever. He/it came, entered the field of battle on his/its own accord and left again. Matter of factly, after the Halisstra/Eilistraee/Qilué fiasco, he simply vanishes from the story, methinks.
As for the topical question ... Ghaunadaur is a god of oozes and slimes, aliased The Ancient One in LP III and Demihuman Deities gives one of his aliases as Juiblex. Which is one of the names he/it may use on Toril. Whether the deities/things are one and the same is another matter. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 12 Aug 2008 20:57:14 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 21:32:29
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| Evermeet, Island of Elves gives some information on Ghaunadaur, too. He was drawn to Arvandor by Araushnee's treachery when she tried to betray Corellon and took delight in her fall. Then he tried to assimilate the fallen goddess, but failed, and in his rage he slew his followers, annihilating most of them and turning the remainder into mindless slugs and oozes, thus weaking himself greatly. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 23:26:10
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| Elaine's short story in Realms of the Arcane, "Secrets of Blood, Spirits of the Sea," actually has a pre-descent dark elf worshiper of Ghaunadar in it. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 23:46:14
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| Yes, IIRC, the dark elves first worshiped Ghaunadaur before they converted to Lolth (long before the crown wars, I think), and after Lolth became the only worshiped god, some dark elves (and later drow) began to worship him again seeking an alternative to the worship of the spider queen. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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maransreth
Learned Scribe
Australia
157 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 10:30:51
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Plus as far as I am aware Tharizdun is a Greyhawk deity/idea and has had nothing to do with the Realms.
Ghaundar - oozes
Tharizdun - big bad evil that the good guys ganged up against. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 20:22:42
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quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
Plus as far as I am aware Tharizdun is a Greyhawk deity/idea and has had nothing to do with the Realms.
Ghaundar - oozes
Tharizdun - big bad evil that the good guys ganged up against.
...and Tharizdun is similar to Sekolah in the sense that he does not speak or interact with his followers (priests get spells, sure, but neither god will be caught talking to a mortal...) |
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 20:22:36
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| Yet they are both called the Elder Elemental God... hmmm |
« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 06:54:43
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| Welcome to the hunt... |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 07:23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
Plus as far as I am aware Tharizdun is a Greyhawk deity/idea and has had nothing to do with the Realms.
Ghaundar - oozes
Tharizdun - big bad evil that the good guys ganged up against.
...and Tharizdun is similar to Sekolah in the sense that he does not speak or interact with his followers (priests get spells, sure, but neither god will be caught talking to a mortal...)
...I mean, this isn't exactly unique to Sekolah. The Blood Queen, Yurtrus, Blibdolpoolp and so on aren't exactly the chatty type.
As for the ooze and Big T, the ooze is a ancient deity from a primordial age while Big T has nothing to do with the elements and just has the name tacked on because of his cultists. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 10:31:02
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No connection? Did Tharizdun not cast the Obyrith's Shard of Elemental Evil into the inner planes, and then become father to the avatars of elemental evil Ogremoch and Hydro..something- etc? Tharizdun -is-*Edit, see misinterpretation of devs linked in reddit rhread. Great to know! the elder elemental eye- he's an inevitable occurence in any timeline where a god decides to turn in their kin and decree that all reality should be wiped clean to start again without the plague of chaos and demons around. (I find Big T funny because I have been calling Ghaunadaur Big G in my notes for almost a year)
4e lore if I recall placed Juiblex as a primordial evil slinking out of the demon-tainted elemental chaos before the Obyrith Sirybriexes crafted Demogorgon- the first of the Tanari.
Ghaunadaur is the elder elemental eye, and was quite apparent in the 5e Elemental Evil retelling with both a temple and cult to the elder elemental eye (the developers made some kind of choice to never tell any story of this lore question in a baffling lack of key names and information in the module at my recollection) as well as introducing magical weapons from the Fane of the Eye (I've heard Tharizdun be mentioned in associations with fanes specifically in other settings but I digress) by a certain Drow Archmage banished from Drow society for being judged disloyal to Lolth... A certain Ghaunadaur following archmage who unearthed the tools of the Evil Princes of the elements who exist due to the actions of Tharizdun. I've seen it said that Tharizdun's explanations to the princes upon their crearion has convinced them to do his bidding.
Tharizdun isn't Ghaunadaur the same way Ghaunadaur isn't Juiblex. It's complicated cross-setting screwy lore but they are intrinsivally linked. The forgotteb realms just refuses to make a statement on the matter- and peoduces a much more vast and unique (and fuzzy) history of events and entities.
My out of the abyss campaign I've reconstructed from the ground up after deep diving inti Ghaunadaur from a player taking them as their patron in the year 1487DR. The concept of Ghaunadaur being shattered into various inprisoned avatars in the age of silence and death of gods- Juiblex appears in Toril's underdark and decides to reconstitute this world's perspective on the elder elemental eye. Buuut that's a tangent.
Tharizdun has this ephemeral distant connection to the Princes of Elemental Evil, Ghaunadaur, Juiblex, Astral Dreadnaughts and beholders possibly, and the Abyss itself all while having a very mad relationship with the Obyriths.
It's not that all these things are Tharizdun, though the idea of his eye opening across reality to peer from his prison world of his own mind or something is an easy ticket to a short and satisfyong answer to this all, but it is that chaos is linked to these things intrinsically.
The obyriths and chaos poisoned the cosmos of all realities and was a threat to all reality up to gods and thus the creations of the overgods. Those who tried to fix the problem directly fell to the foul touch of chaotic evil. Quite literally in Tharizdun's case when the Shard of Ultimate evil thing happened.
I know lots of this is dm conjecture and not really realmslore in many ways Im sure, but Ghaunadaur is several levels of abstraction away from all that. Several realms canon ore books call Ghaunaduar the Elder Elemental Eye and that just..... it's an obvious sign from developers of all editions that the connection is there.
EDIT: Correction from George Krashos at the behest of GG himself- the modfication I want to make on my post here is not that there is a family tree from chaos to tharizdun to Juiblex and Ghaunadaur, but that instead there is a family tree from chaos's affect on primordial beings and gods to produce both Tharizdun and the other beings off different branches of causality in different realms.
Distant cousins, not grandfathers and sons.
I've made note of the linked discrepancy in my original post. Though I feel Juiblex would be far closer to Tharizrun than Ghaunadaur would be, and could have taken over some of Ghaunadaur's faithful beforethe gods started openly speaking with priests againb, anticipared the rise of the elemental evil princes' cults some years later, and united under the fane of the eye with him *just over a decade* after Tharizdun had an official brush against Abeir-Toril in the form of the Abyssal Plague
If Tharizdun had actually gotten a foothold on Toril he could have had the influence to thwart the Dark Heart Talisman and have Four Elemental Princes, their cults, one if not several Demon Princes, their cults, and the corrupted civilians and animals infected by the Abyssal Plague under his control. That level of attention could have really strained Tharizrun's prison depending on what story you hold as truth on that topic. God, Toril would have been wrecked.. After just kicking out Tiamat they might have had to face a worldwide war against demons, elemental evil, beholders, astral dreadnaughts sabotaging astral connections to Realmspace, and the efforts of all of tbeir cults trying to break him free while distracting any attempt at resistance.
Players stop threats to reality all the time. Still I wonder what would have become of Ghaunadaur had Tharizdun kept a hold over a small fane in Toril and, with Juiblex and their somehow related elemental princes allied with him... |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 29 Nov 2020 10:50:58 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 01:24:09
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I avoid all these conundrums by having an "outward-facing" Forgotten Realms. The gods, devils and demons of my Realms aren't determined by Greyhawk lore, or Planescape lore or any lore at all that isn't Realmslore. Makes life much easier.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 06:22:53
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The planes are infinite. Just because some deities are similar does not mean they must be the same. There could be literally thousands of Tharizdun type deities out there (even setting aside Ghaunadar, there's the Dark God from DMGR4 Monster Mythology who is Tharizdun in all but name). I'm of the opinion that we should embrace it because severability makes handling lore contradictions easier. :)
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
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"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Tharizdun - Ghaunadar
