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 Want to include 4e powers in your D&D 3e games?
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CharlesBrown
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2008 :  08:12:48  Show Profile  Visit CharlesBrown's Homepage Send CharlesBrown a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I have a proposal that would allow you to include various 4e type combat
actions or powers in your D&D (1-3e) game plays. That is if you like 4e
combat options but you don't want to migrate to 4e. Note that this is
only a proposal which requires a lot of development, tweakings, and play
testings on your part.

The proposal is based on the idea that (combat) actions or powers require
certain costs to be paid before they can be executed. This is exactly
like playing a card in "Magic the Gathering", where a specific card
requires certain costs in the number of white, green, blue, red and black
mana. There are three types of costs or utility scores in my proposal,
and I named them Speed, Reaction, and Guard scores. These scores can be
spent to execute various combat actions which include swinging a sword to
do extra damage, shooting a bow to cripple your target, or casting a spell
with styles.

How to calculate utility scores? The formula is as follows:

Speed = Creature Size Index - Attack Mode Index + Primary Ability
Modifier* + BAB

Reaction = Creature Size Index - Armor Size Index + DEX Mod + BAB

Guard = Attack Mode Index + Armor Size Index 2xCreature Size Index +
WIS Mod + BAB

*Primary Ability Modifier:
= STR Mod if you are using melee weapons.
= DEX Mod if you are using finessed weapons or ranged weapon
= INt if you are casting INT based spells.
= CHA if you are casting CHA based spells.
= WIS if you are casting WIS based spells.

BAB = Base attack bonus. Note that BAB is dependent on the classes and
levels of your character.

The indexes are defined as follows:

----Attack Mode--

Character Weapon Spell Armor Index
Size Size Size Size
---------------------------------------------
Tiny Tiny Cantrips None 0
Small Small Lvl 1-3 Light 1
Medium Medium Lvl 4-6 Medium 2
Large Large Lvl 7-9 Heavy 3

Note: -If you are using an offhand weapon, add the index of the offhand
weapon to your attack mode index.
-If you are using a shield, add the index of the shield to your
armor size index. Small=1, Medium=2, Tower=3.
-Arcane casters are assumed to have a free hand in casting spells.
-These utilities scores are renewed per round, but powers or combat
actions can be developed to cripple or augment these scores.


Analysis up to this point:

Note that the ranges of utility score for a Level 1 human fighter using
1 weapon is:
Speed = 4-7
Reaction = 4-7
Guard = 1-7
As the character increase in levels, these utility score become less
dependent on character size, weapon size, and armor size. This is because
experience tend to round out the rough edges.

Note that with this rule, you can relax the rule preventing small humanoids
from using large weapons, as well as the rule that penalize arcane casters
for using armors and shields.

At this point, combat actions or powers can be developed. This is also
where my proposal ends and your role begins. However I will start off with
some suggestions to start things off:


Combat actions Classes Type Speed Reaction Guard
Description
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Basic attack General Melee 4 4 4
Grants for 1 basic attack.

Reckless attack+1 General Melee 0 0 1
Grants +1 damage -1 AC on basic attack.

Cautious attack+1 General Melee 1 1 0
Grants -1 damage +1 AC on basic attack.

Power Attack+1 Fighter Classes Melee 1 1 1
Grants +1 damage on basic attack.

Knock Down Fighter Classes Melee 2 1 1
Knock target prone on basic attack.

Quicken spell+1 Casting Classes Casting 2 1 0
Reduce speed factor* by 1.


So a reckless +1 power attack+1 action combo will cost 5/5/6. Since
this can easily be paid by a level 1 human fighter per round, it
automatically become an "At Will" power or action. This needs tweaking
though.

How does per encounter works? If an action costs more than a character
has enough utility scores to pay, he/she can over-draw by an allowance
of say 3/3/3 (+ CON mod to all scores?) per encounter per level. So a
cautious +2 power attack +2 combo which grants +2 damage and +2 AC to
attack until the end of round combo would cost 8/8/6. A first level
fighter can over-draw from his allowance to execute this attack. The
action automatically becomes a "Per Encounter" action. Again tweaking
is required.

*Re: quicken spell action. Note that this proposal introduces the idea
of speed factor in the casting of a spell. The speed factor of a spell
= number of rounds required to cast the spell = level of the spell. For
example, Magic missile has a speed factor of 1 while Wail of the Banshee
has the speed factor of 9. Note that the need to memorize spell per
slot per day is no longer required as wizards are considered to be able
to cast all spells in their spell books. However wizards still have to
go through the trouble of scribing spells into their spell books. Note
also that with this rule, magic missiles and other 1st levels spells
become "At Will" spells. Also high level wizards are nerfed because
they require a lot of time to cast high level spells that can be
interrupted. Fighters are needed more than ever to protect their
wizards from getting interupted.

Well that's all from me. I hope enthusiasts will take this and develop
a full set of rules for others to use. I am curious to see what can be
developed.


Mod Edit: Shifted to a more appropriate shelf.

Edited by - The Sage on 23 Jul 2008 15:34:17

Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 23 Jul 2008 :  15:25:21  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No offense but I saw that you posted this thread already in a different forum. I know you meant no harm, but it's bad form to post a topic more than once.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36735 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2008 :  15:28:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed. We like to keep our shelves tidy.

Additionally, I'm not sure this area of the shelves is a good location for this topic (alternate rules are neither a WotC release nor WotC news). So I'm going to close this one, and link everyone back to the identical thread located elsewhere.

Want to include 4e powers in your D&D 3e games?

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2008 :  15:33:14  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed. Charles, please note that I've removed the other scroll you posted that repeated this same topic.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2008 :  15:35:52  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Indeed. We like to keep our shelves tidy.

Additionally, I'm not sure this area of the shelves is a good location for this topic (alternate rules are neither a WotC release nor WotC news). So I'm going to close this one, and link everyone back to the identical thread located elsewhere.

Want to include 4e powers in your D&D 3e games?

I've since removed that scroll, and unsealed this one. All discussion pertaining to Charles' topic should be placed in this scroll.

Thank you.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36735 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2008 :  16:01:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Sage just wanted to one up me. He's still irked about my last gremlins comment.

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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2131 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2008 :  16:03:32  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find this topic intriguing and will keep an eye on it.

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
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My game design work:
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2008 :  16:51:49  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The Sage just wanted to one up me. He's still irked about my last gremlins comment.

Careful... I've noticed my ASP Gremlins have suddenly developed a taste for space hamster!

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http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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CharlesBrown
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2008 :  01:08:26  Show Profile  Visit CharlesBrown's Homepage Send CharlesBrown a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry about the double posts. New here. I posted the this one and couldn't find it in the forums so I wasn't sure if it got posted successfully. So I reposted.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2008 :  01:21:30  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah. No worries.

If you have any further problems with posting future scrolls, please feel free to contact me privately.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2131 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2008 :  01:42:14  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Ah. No worries.

If you have any further problems with posting future scrolls, please feel free to contact me privately.
(that is because the Sage is secretly in league with the Gremlins...)

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36735 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2008 :  01:45:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Ah. No worries.

If you have any further problems with posting future scrolls, please feel free to contact me privately.
(that is because the Sage is secretly in league with the Gremlins...)



He breeds them to keep Big Al busy. While Big Al is chasing down the gremlins, Sage is sneaking off with the Calishite Dancing Girls.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2008 :  01:54:03  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gremlins and Calishite Dancing Girls. What more could a Candlekeep scribe want?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

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CharlesBrown
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2008 :  02:10:59  Show Profile  Visit CharlesBrown's Homepage Send CharlesBrown a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just noticed a few embarrassing number crunching details in my initial proposal, but I won't bore you with an errata. The basic concept is out there, and that is all I care about. I'll let enthusiasts (if there are any) work on the details.

I just noticed also that there is a consequence to the proposed rule. Perhaps a good one. Fighters and practically all other classes have access to basic combat maneuvers like knockdown, expertise, cleave and power attack at 1st level. They may have to pay a bit more points to execute some maneuvers, but they can if they put their resources in them. This makes more sense to me than getting access all of these feats only after achieving some levels.

Player: My paladin will attempt to knock down the orc.
DM: You can't. You don't have the feat yet. Wait a 2 more levels and you can select it.
Player: huh?
DM: That's what it says here in the rule.

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CharlesBrown
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2008 :  04:04:39  Show Profile  Visit CharlesBrown's Homepage Send CharlesBrown a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just noticed another thing my proposed rule. (Ya I know. I've been getting a stream of insights lately. On most days, I am a moron, but on odd days especially on full moons, I grow hair and become a regular Einstein. So plz bear with me a little longer).

Re: Speed factor in spell casting. Notice that high levels spells, because of the proposed rule that they require a long time to cast, have effectively become rituals. This makes sense to me. I have always giggled that my wiz could flip a wrist to a summon a major demon to come to rescue him, like spell casting with a wand in Harry Potter. In fantasy novels usually, sorcerers are required you to draw a protective circle and utter long incantation with some ritual sacrifice. And if everything is done correctly, some demon might answer your summon.

So how do combats "rituals" like Wail of the Banshee works? They don't usually, especially when your party is ambushed. They might work, however with some planning. For example, designate sight, start your 9 rounds of incantation for your Wail, and in the last few rounds have a rogue lure monsters into the ambush.





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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36735 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2008 :  05:50:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CharlesBrown

I just noticed another thing my proposed rule. (Ya I know. I've been getting a stream of insights lately. On most days, I am a moron, but on odd days especially on full moons, I grow hair and become a regular Einstein. So plz bear with me a little longer).



Does that mean you're a weregenius?

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CharlesBrown
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2008 :  14:15:37  Show Profile  Visit CharlesBrown's Homepage Send CharlesBrown a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tried to create a set of combat actions or powers designed to supplement the 3e rules, that is, a conservative set that adds to 3e and does not lobotomize any part of 3e (much), and came to the following conclusion:

Since 3e combat mechanic is designed around Combat Bonus (AB) for martial classes, and Difficulty Check (DC) for all other classes, those are really the only 2 scores that you can sacrifice to buy special combat actions. There are already 3e rules for that. For example, Power Attack Feat: sacrifice 2 AB to do additional 2 damage, or Knock Down Feat: sacrifice 4 AB to attempt to knock prone a target. Other examples are Expertise and Call Shot that operate the same way. So my only recommendation is to make those feats available as basic combat actions to martial classes, and not make them as feats since there are already AB penalties. In addition, break them down to units where possible. For example: Power Attack (1): pay 1 AB to do 1 additional damage. Then mix and match to form attack combos like Power Attack (2) + Expertise (1): Pay 3 AB to do 2 additional damage and gain 1 AC until end of round, and call it whatever you want.

You can do similar things with DC for casting classes. For example, you can create a spell casting combo like: pay 2 DC to reduce speed factor by 1 and increase disruption resistance by 1.

As for per encounter over draw allowance, just make up a number, or make it 1 per level per encounter + CON modifier.

This is a working solution that you can use immediately without having to invest a lot of effort.

Cheers.



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Zanan
Senior Scribe

Germany
942 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2008 :  15:43:12  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding the knock-down: Dunno, but if a player wants to do something special s/he does not always need a feat (in my games) to try it. Does look like Improved Trip to me. It is one thing to bring 4E into 3E, and something else if people play play 3E "by the letter of the book". For the latter can also happen in 4E.
Haven't checked whether knock-down is a weaker version of Improved Trip and if so, I'd possible use the former as a weaker version of Imp. Trip, e.g. no +4 bonus on such attempts.

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Edited by - Zanan on 24 Jul 2008 15:50:19
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CharlesBrown
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2008 :  12:13:48  Show Profile  Visit CharlesBrown's Homepage Send CharlesBrown a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hehe. I've been playing Neverwinter Night alot. Knock is mentioned there which uses mostly 3e rules. Its a feat you can choose when u have BAB of 3 and allows you to attempt to knock prone a target at -4AB. Not sure if its mentioned in any on WOTC manuals.

Some more basic combats that came to mind:
Cleave (redefined): Spend 4 AB on an attack. If that attack succeeds, gain an additional attack at -4 AB. Only available to martial classes.

Extra Damage: Spend 4 AB in an attack to gain + damage in that attack, where is the damage dealt by the weapon. eg. 1d8 for a long sword.

Murderous attack: Spend 4 AB in all attacks to add +1 to your critical damage range until end of round. Prerequisite: Improved critical feat.

Executioner's Blow: Spend 4 AB in all attacks to increase critical damage multiplier by 1 until end of round. Prerequisite: Improved critical feat.

Two Handed Fighting: Make it a basic combat mode. Any bloke can hold a weapon in each hand, and AB penalties are already included. Ambidexterity should be a feat though IMO.

First Strike: Spend 4 AB on all attacks to gain +4 initiative, and you make all of your attacks before your target makes his first attack. If the target is reduced to 0 HP, it cannot retaliate.

Its so easy to think up of these combat powers. Remember that if you include per encounter and daily over draw allowances, level 1 fighters would access to these combat actions.

Cheers.

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