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Horatio
Seeker
Israel
59 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 19:59:15
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I realize this isn't a LotR forum, but maybe you can help me. I'd like to know if Mithril is a copyrighted concept by Tolkien, so if I write a fantasy novel with it, should I change the name or can I use Mithril?
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 20:58:42
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| Words and concepts aren't subject to copyright; the question is whether the word 'mithril' is trademarked. To my knowledge (and per Wikipedia), it isn't; I'm pretty sure no one (including TSR) who used it in print has been sued by the Tolkien estate. But I'm not a lawyer, so don't go getting sued on my account. Artistically, though, it would grate to use mithril except in a story set in Middle-earth, and would help get your novel dismissed by publishers, if they saw it, as derivative genre fantasy. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 22:33:04
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Technically it is not copyrighted - even if it were, it has been used in games, comics, and other media since the 70's, and is therefore an undefended IP, and has become public domain because of that.
The Tolkien estate might challenge you for using it in a novel, but they would lose because of the above.
However, Faraer is quite correct, and no publishing house would take you seriously if you used it. |
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jul 2008 22:33:45 |
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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 23:36:02
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| Of course! |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
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Horatio
Seeker
Israel
59 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 00:19:20
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| That's a good point, I was thinking it might be a good basis to dismiss it, I just thought Mithril became a widespread concept that exists in D&D and the Forgotten Realms too. In fact, several minutes before I made this thread I thought it was an actual mineral on planet earth, so excuse my ignorance and thanks for the replies, I'll definitely not be using it. |
Edited by - Horatio on 20 Jul 2008 00:20:30 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 04:13:16
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Also, adamantine actually comes from Greek mythology, so it cannot be copyrighted as well (there was some story about some guy with an adamantine scythe, but I do not remember much more of the details than that  ). |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 04:27:39
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| 3.5 used the spelling "Mithral" instead of "Mithril" for what was obviously the same material. |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 09:21:18
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Jupiter wielded an adamantine scythe in his battle against Typhon. In Roman mythology I believe Jupiter was largely comparable to Zeus in Greek mythology.
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Also, adamantine actually comes from Greek mythology, so it cannot be copyrighted as well (there was some story about some guy with an adamantine scythe, but I do not remember much more of the details than that ).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36873 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 11:06:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Jupiter wielded an adamantine scythe in his battle against Typhon. In Roman mythology I believe Jupiter was largely comparable to Zeus in Greek mythology.
Indeed. In fact, I read somewhere that the word "Jupiter" is simply a corruption of "Zeus pater", or "father Zeus". |
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Haplo
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2014 : 21:36:57
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| If it is used by Tolkien, and also by D&D, does that make it more of an accepted fantasy piece? Like elves and dwarves? WHat I mean is that can it just be used in a novel to explain an uncommonly hard and light ore? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36873 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2014 : 22:57:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Haplo
If it is used by Tolkien, and also by D&D, does that make it more of an accepted fantasy piece? Like elves and dwarves? WHat I mean is that can it just be used in a novel to explain an uncommonly hard and light ore?
Most likely yes, but as Faraer noted, it would be seen as derivative, at best.
You'd be better making some similar material, with a different name... Especially if there was some secret process/mixture needed to get it so strong and light. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4459 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2014 : 22:58:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Horatio
I realize this isn't a LotR forum, but maybe you can help me. I'd like to know if Mithril is a copyrighted concept by Tolkien, so if I write a fantasy novel with it, should I change the name or can I use Mithril?
No, it's not copyrighted and I disagree that using such a term would discredit your story. Considering that mithral is used quite often in many D&D novels and fantasy genre overall. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2014 : 23:29:38
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A single word can not be copyrighted, it could only be trade marked. TSR tried to trademark Drow and a few other words, however failed in those efforts because they could not meet the burden of proof that they could trademark it. TSR however was able to trademark other words that were unique enough to be their IP.
Mithril as far as I know was never granted trademark protection.
Copyright comes into play when using a series of words. One person I know indicated five exact words that appeared in copyright material was a level of concern about possible violation of a copyright. It clearly can depend on what five words. "To be or not to be?" Six words, any copyright they ever had has expired.
It of course is always prudent to invent new words for anything trademarked and crafted in such a way that copyright is not violated. Of course even fan, not for profit, use does not protect from a violation of protected material.
In one way you could use Mithril is provide credit to a Tolkien or TSR product as a foot note to avoid legal some legal issues, clearly it would be best if you get in writing assurance from governmental, TSR/WotC or the Tolkien estate that there is held no legal claim of use of the word. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2014 : 23:35:45
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Many fantasy authors (and sci-fi authors, too) sidestep such issues by inventing and naming their own exotic substances. Usually some detailed explanation about fantastic materials, workings of magic, and distinctions between races are provided within the context of the setting. Sadly, they are often uninspired variations of Tolkeins classic prototypes.
Besides, even Tolkein shaped his stuff from folklore, superstitions, and fairy tales which predated him.
And, as any true Tolkein reader would know, mithril aint all that its cut out to be. Galvorn would be my mythical alloy of choice. |
[/Ayrik] |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 09:24:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Indeed. In fact, I read somewhere that the word "Jupiter" is simply a corruption of "Zeus pater", or "father Zeus".
Not quite; Zeus and Jupiter are independently descended from the earlier "Dyeus Pater," as is the ancient Hindu god Dyaus Pitar and possibly Dispater.
"Deus," "Divine," "Deva," and Tyr are all related as well.
Jeff |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 19:04:13
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| Mythril has been used in the FF series of videogames too so I doubt there's a problem in using it in your series. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 19:25:30
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As far as I am aware, NO word or concept from Tolkien's books is trademarked. This is largely because he drew heavily on folklore and religion. Titles and character names are an exception, along with the actual text and story, of course, and currently to my knowledge are included as part of the merchandising rights bought along with the film rights. I know there was some legal contention over the term "one ring" back before the movies were made, which resulted in the defendant prevailing as the usage was clearly not intended as a reference to the LOTR books. I do think more specifically Tolkien terms like Silmaril would fall under the same protections as the character names.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 22:55:10
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Even Silmaril might be open game, unless linked with Silmarillion (which is definitely copyrightable stuff, methinks).
I say this because some other words invented by Tolkien have appeared all over the place, effectively just public domain stuff. Elric is a fine example, the name was probably more popularized by other authors than by its own creator.
Stuff like elves and dwarves and dragons and orcs and treants - and mithril - are just baseline fantasy trope. Even if it resembles Tolkeins depictions more than the folklore, superstition, and mythology from which he drew inspiration. |
[/Ayrik] |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 14:05:23
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| A search of the USPTO's Trademark Electronic Search System (TESS) comes up with several live trademark registrations by The Saul Zaentz Company for "mithril". I would personally recommend using an alternative word or spelling. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 14:41:34
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| Hobbit is a protected word. It's the reason Gary had to update early D&D content to Halfling. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1727 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 15:02:49
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Mitrhil was a word we were told (as TSR staffers (or at least the editors)) to avoid using as it caused legal headaches with the Tolkien estate (but I think had more legally to do with THEIR wranglings with the people who controlled the Hobbit cartoon rights, iirc). Thus, the Realms and elsewhere got mithral and adamantine as generic replacements.
It was never an absolute hard and fast rule until our 1994 House Style book explicitly stated "mithral, not mithril (1st Ed. DMG, p. 164 vs. Tolkien. Note error in Complete Book of Dwarves)" |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 18:34:45
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| As a side note, I've never seen ANY of the other metals mentioned in the Silmarillion or Tales books in any RPG (though I'm betting they used them in MERP which I never got into.) There were quite a few, if memory serves. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36873 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 18:43:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
As a side note, I've never seen ANY of the other metals mentioned in the Silmarillion or Tales books in any RPG (though I'm betting they used them in MERP which I never got into.) There were quite a few, if memory serves.
It's likely those books aren't as widely read as The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. |
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Is Mithril copyrighted?
