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BlackDragonKarameikos
Learned Scribe
USA
106 Posts |
 Posted - 29 May 2008 : 08:56:27
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The question I have is this.
I am thinking about having one of the female weretigers in my group become pregnant. Since I am the DM this is possible, although I would not do this without the permission of the player who is controlloing the weretiger.
My qusetion is this: is the birth cycle of the weretiger based on that of the tiger, or that of the human?
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 11:55:39
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Good avatar.
Well, the first question, is it she a natural weretiger or infected? If originally human I would go with that. If not I think I would go with something in the middle of the animal and humans.
I will check Van Richtens guide to Werefolk from 2ed. and Night Howlers for d&D just for fun. If I find anything i will let you know. |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 12:18:09
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Tigers gestation goes from 95 to 120 days. Humans one, as we know, is 270 days long.
IMO, and with no considerations about the game rules :
If your character seems to be a human, more than she seems to be a tiger, I will use the human gestation time.
On the contrary,...
Third solution, take the average duration : a bit less than 200 days !
I made also this post because Jorken's one was not counted by the server as an answer ! |
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I am a French FR fan, so please forgive my lapses in English language and do not hesitate to correct me. Thanks a lot. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 13:23:55
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I would go with the gestation period of whichever form is natural for the mother. Since D&D assumes lycanthropes are human or demihuman, I'd go with that.
One of the female weretigers? There's more than one in the group?
Sean K Reynolds, on his website, has a great $5 pdf called Curse of the Moon. In there, he tackles the problems he sees with werecritters in D&D, presenting new rules to keep them more balanced, and also intro'ing new variant rules. It's well worth the $5. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 May 2008 13:24:58 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 16:15:19
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Also, if you are leaning more toward the tiger then the human side, I'd give some sort of percentage chance of multiple births (she hasd a litter!) 
D10
1-5 = 1 child
6,7 = 2 children
8,9 = 3 children
10 = 4 children
or, on 10, you can really go nuts, and have her roll a D4+3 for the number of children. 
I don't even want to think about 'feeding time'. 
Out of curiousity, where do your Weretigers hail from? I noted a rather large community of such creatues down in the Sempadan Forest (which is technically in Zakhara, but borders all three major campaign regions). They even have their own god... but I'm not at home so I can't look up her name. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 May 2008 16:15:47 |
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BlackDragonKarameikos
Learned Scribe
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 16:56:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Good avatar.
Well, the first question, is it she a natural weretiger or infected? If originally human I would go with that. If not I think I would go with something in the middle of the animal and humans.
The mother was a natural Weretiger so the children are as well. I say children because the mother gave birth to a pair of twin girls one with regular orange and black striped fur, and one with White and Black striped fur.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, if you are leaning more toward the tiger then the human side, I'd give some sort of percentage chance of multiple births (she hasd a litter!)
D10
1-5 = 1 child
6,7 = 2 children
8,9 = 3 children
10 = 4 children
or, on 10, you can really go nuts, and have her roll a D4+3 for the number of children.
Then let me ask you this: What would be the largest litter that a weretiger would have? 8-10? maybe more? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 18:43:04
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| A quick search of the internet gives a consensus that 2-4 cubs is an average tiger litter, with 5 or 6 being rare out-liers. So, since her family already has a history of multiple births, I'd just use 1d4, with 1 counting as 2. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 21:17:04
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| 1d4+1 :P |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 23:15:29
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| Unless the female was born in tiger form, I'd stick with whatever is the norm for her apparent race. Nothing I've seen suggests that human/demihuman werecritters give birth in any unusual way -- so, a normal gestation, and a normal amount of offspring. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2008 : 00:30:52
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But its just so much more fun making her have a litter.
Of course your right - there is no lore to support it, but if she is natural born weretger, I figure he could have a little fun with her.
If you do go the multiple-birth route, though, I wouldn't give a flat die-roll as others suggested - I prefer something more along the lines of 'the curve' I did there. Just randomly handing her five 'kittens' because of some bad luck is pretty mean (even for me). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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BlackDragonKarameikos
Learned Scribe
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2008 : 04:21:13
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Well I think I'll go with about 7-9 months for gestation, and as for number of children, I think I'll go with from 1-4 children. Since even human females tend to give birth to multiple children at times.
And if I remember correctly, the further you go back in history the chance of a woman having multiple children became even rarer, but it was still possible.
One other question on this subject though.
How would the children age? would it again be by that of the human or that of a tiger? I probably know what the answer will be but I'm going to ask it anyways. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2008 : 16:01:10
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| I'd really suggest finding a copy of the Van Richten Guide to Werebeasts. It's a Ravenloft product, and thus geared toward "all were-creatures are raging villians," but still has a great deal that can be mined for use with good lycanthropes. I know gestation and childhood are mentioned, but I'm afb right now, and can't give a summary. But any of the VR books are great to have (though your players will hate them and wish to steal and burn them). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2008 : 20:51:44
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I checked the Van Richten. The were creatures follow the human norm more or less, although they are slightly more fertile and the child grows slightly faster. Not enough to stand out though. Entering puberty the were will start changing form.
The thing that is mentioned is that (logically)the were should not change form during the last 3/4 of the pregnancy as the process will very likely harm or kill the baby.
I will second the advise given by Hoondatha. Get a copy of Van Richten Guide to Werebeasts. pdf or printed. It is well worth it. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2008 : 05:03:12
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One child only.
Gestation time: longer than human. Why? we're talking about a creature with physical and mental abilities vastly superior to that of a human (i.e. it can shapechange in **3** different forms! ==> more complicated genetic code takes more time to reproduce)
It's also bigger in its natural (i.e. hybrid) form ==> the bigger the animal, the longer the gestation (look at whales and elephants), unless they lay eggs, but I'll assume that natural lycans are mammals and breastfeed their young. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2008 : 09:28:18
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I like PDK's biological approach on this one.
Anyhow, IIRC there was a litter of a Werecreature (-tiger, -cheeta or the likes) featured in Lisa Smedmans Ravenloft adventure modul: Death Ascendent. I am not anywhere near my books, otherwise I could check. However, I recall there being more than 1 cub.
Than again, Ravenloft is not the Realms.... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 31 May 2008 09:29:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2008 : 13:30:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
One child only.
Gestation time: longer than human. Why? we're talking about a creature with physical and mental abilities vastly superior to that of a human (i.e. it can shapechange in **3** different forms! ==> more complicated genetic code takes more time to reproduce)
It's also bigger in its natural (i.e. hybrid) form ==> the bigger the animal, the longer the gestation (look at whales and elephants), unless they lay eggs, but I'll assume that natural lycans are mammals and breastfeed their young.
Yeah, but it is being born as a human -- so the animal forms shouldn't be a factor. Besides, why would you consider animal size, and not the animal lifespan? Most animals that werepeople turn into don't have long lifespans, so if one animal feature is a factor, then that one certainly should be.
And if you're going to throw in the animal argument, you might as well go back to multiple births -- even though animals are equipped for nursing multiple young simultaneously, and humans aren't.
Additionally, I'd hardly consider the hybrid form to be the natural form. It may be a natural form, but the critter is going to be born in its natural, default form.
As I said before, there is nothing I know of, in canon or in any rules, that suggests weres giving birth do so in a manner in any way different from normal people. Not only that, it's just easier to assume that everything is normal for the gestation and birth, and that the kid's were nature won't show up until they hit puberty. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 31 May 2008 13:33:34 |
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BlackDragonKarameikos
Learned Scribe
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2008 : 14:26:41
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Actually, I do have the Van Richten's guides. I looked into them and you are right, there is a lot of info in there that I had forgotten about.
I'll have to sit down and re-read the book on lycans. I see it has a good amount of information on the werebeasts.
And thanks for all of the help friends. May your travels always be safe. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2008 : 16:41:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[snip]it's just easier to assume that everything is normal for the gestation and birth, and that the kid's were nature won't show up until they hit puberty.
Cool, I can buy the puberty argument. However "something's gotta give" in order to make me 100% happy with this (i.e. if their reproductivity is the same as humans, then their lifespan should be shorter...)
What's a weretiger lifespan anywho?  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2008 : 22:25:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[snip]it's just easier to assume that everything is normal for the gestation and birth, and that the kid's were nature won't show up until they hit puberty.
Cool, I can buy the puberty argument. However "something's gotta give" in order to make me 100% happy with this (i.e. if their reproductivity is the same as humans, then their lifespan should be shorter...)
What's a weretiger lifespan anywho?
Going by Van Richten, the same as the human/demihuman race. Also, going by Van Richten, true weres reach sexual maturity just a bit earlier, are slightly more fertile, and have a slightly higher rate of multiple births -- but not so much as to stand out or be all that noteworthy.
One thing in Van Richten that I don't agree with, and that I'd happily dismiss as a rule of Ravenloft: weres need to eat the same amount of food, and the same type, as their animal form, to gain sustenance. Our weretiger lady would have to eat a good amount of fresh meat every day to gain sustenance -- cooked meat or vegetables wouldn't offer enough sustenance. I'd say she did have to eat fresh meat frequently, but not nearly as much or as often as Van Richten suggests.
Oh, and another potential tradeoff for you: go with the idea of visible markers while in human form, such as overly long forefingers or being notably hairy. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2008 : 10:20:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
I like PDK's biological approach on this one.
Anyhow, IIRC there was a litter of a Werecreature (-tiger, -cheeta or the likes) featured in Lisa Smedmans Ravenloft adventure modul: Death Ascendent. I am not anywhere near my books, otherwise I could check. However, I recall there being more than 1 cub.
Than again, Ravenloft is not the Realms....
I checked: on p. 44 of said module the talk is of a litter of 2 cubs of Weretigers.
Whatever this info is worth.... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 01 Jun 2008 10:30:13 |
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BlackDragonKarameikos
Learned Scribe
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 11:15:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One thing in Van Richten that I don't agree with, and that I'd happily dismiss as a rule of Ravenloft: weres need to eat the same amount of food, and the same type, as their animal form, to gain sustenance. Our weretiger lady would have to eat a good amount of fresh meat every day to gain sustenance -- cooked meat or vegetables wouldn't offer enough sustenance. I'd say she did have to eat fresh meat frequently, but not nearly as much or as often as Van Richten suggests.
Oh, and another potential tradeoff for you: go with the idea of visible markers while in human form, such as overly long forefingers or being notably hairy.
Actually Wooly, I just have the weretigers in my group eat like normal humans, except that they like to eat raw meat instead of cooked meat(although they do like to eat cooked meat once in a while), and they usually eat twice the amount a human would eat(E. G. if a human would eat a single slab of meat, then the weretigers will eat two or three slabs). They do go out to hunt, but they usually only bring down small game(such as rabbits, foxes, and perhaps an odd deer or two) and such so that they don't draw undue attention to themselves.
As for visible markers in human form, one of the weretigers is Albino with Black Stripes(like that of a white tiger) and the other has shock white hair with the eyes of a cat(when anyone asks her about this, she just tells them that a friend played a trick on her and cast a spell to make her eyes look like those of a cats). The only other thing that could mark them as not human is that when they speak they roll their Rrrrrrs(which, when I do the voices for them, really chews up my throat, especially if we play for 6-10 hours like we normally do). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 13:06:37
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That's how I'd do it. I'd make the Van Richten's thing on food be something that was Ravenloft-specific. We saw in Vampire of the Mists that things that worked for nastybads elsewhere wouldn't work in Ravenloft, so there is precedent for that idea.
I've honestly never really liked the visible markers in human form idea. I like my weres to be better hidden than that. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 18:58:32
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About the 'markers' - I remember from some movie that Werewolves second toe was longer then there Big Toe. I always thought that was a very esoteric bit and easily adapted to D&D (who sees someone's toes all the time?)
I like it even more when I married a girl with toes like that in RL (I used to use it against her all the time). I was dissapointed though... she never turned into a Wolf, although she was often-times a became a real bi.....
She was also Born on Beltane.. the holy day of witches...
I should have realized with all that going on, we were doomed from the start.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jun 2008 19:00:10 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 14:56:42
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I have toes like that!! And while I'm rather hirsute, I can assure everyone that I do not howl at the moon! Unless there's a good reason of course. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 08:49:01
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Honestly, I'd be surprised that a weretiger could even safely carry a baby to full term, what with all the changing and shifting around. Sure, a uterus is a very safe place to be, but a human uterus and a feline uterus are shaped differently, and I'd assume the hybrid form would be an average of the two shapes. It just seems like a lot of stress on an unborn litter of weretiger cubs, but I'm no OB/GYN.
At the very least, I would probably say that the pregnancy would make it very uncomfortable (although maybe not outright painful) to change shape toward the last few months. That, to me, would be the trade-off for a weretiger being able to safely deliver cubs. You can do a really amazing thing like carry cubs for the better part of a year in a shape-changing uterus, but as those cubs get larger, moving them around when you change from one form to another gets harder and harder and increasingly uncomfortable. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 16:57:00
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However, there is some lore concerning 'feline' shapeshifters in nearby Arabel.
Catlords, to be exact, although I do not believe there is any canon relation between the two groups (but as DM, you can go to town with that).
Can't check the 'Old Grey Box' for you, as I am not at home, but lycanthropes are intelligent creatures, like Man, and can be found well outside their normal habitats. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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BlackDragonKarameikos
Learned Scribe
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 04:42:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Calrond
Honestly, I'd be surprised that a weretiger could even safely carry a baby to full term, what with all the changing and shifting around. Sure, a uterus is a very safe place to be, but a human uterus and a feline uterus are shaped differently, and I'd assume the hybrid form would be an average of the two shapes. It just seems like a lot of stress on an unborn litter of weretiger cubs, but I'm no OB/GYN.
At the very least, I would probably say that the pregnancy would make it very uncomfortable (although maybe not outright painful) to change shape toward the last few months. That, to me, would be the trade-off for a weretiger being able to safely deliver cubs. You can do a really amazing thing like carry cubs for the better part of a year in a shape-changing uterus, but as those cubs get larger, moving them around when you change from one form to another gets harder and harder and increasingly uncomfortable.
In the Van Richten's guides the info on Werebeasts states that a werebeast that is pregnant cannot change at all during the final 3/4 of the pregnancy.
I would guess that this is to protect the baby from any undue stress or strain that could possibly cause some kind of complication, or even the loss of the baby. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 06:05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
However, there is some lore concerning 'feline' shapeshifters in nearby Arabel.
Catlords, to be exact, although I do not believe there is any canon relation between the two groups (but as DM, you can go to town with that).
Can't check the 'Old Grey Box' for you, as I am not at home, but lycanthropes are intelligent creatures, like Man, and can be found well outside their normal habitats.
Are Catlords the same as catfolks? (i.e. from Miniatures Handbook?) Or is that the name of an Rhakshasa organization or something? |
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Question on Weretigers
