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Foghorn
Acolyte
6 Posts |
 Posted - 16 May 2008 : 21:50:39
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So, my Realms-fu not being all that fantastic, my friendly neighborhood DM was complaining that these guys were a little lackluster rules-wise. I busted out my old Monsters of Faerun to take a look at what he's saying. Which, by the way, is there's a more current version of these beasties?
Alternate form is a neat ability, but the way he described them made the ability seem a little lacking. Now, the way I understand the ol' Maulagrym is that they are natural shapeshifters that are able to change forms like some people change socks.
Not only that, but they change parts of their body in order to gain advantage in combat. Something not represented in the stat block at all. Coming up with an ability for that sort of thing was one idea that I had, but I was just wondering if anyone here had some other ideas or inspirations that could help me come up with something that I hope my DM likes enough to not kill me with it later.
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 22:52:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Foghorn
Maulagrym is that they are natural shapeshifters that are able to change forms like some people change socks.
Not only that, but they change parts of their body in order to gain advantage in combat.
Seems to me you already have the idea - just let them shapeshift into anything they want to and shapeshift any part of them to what they want to - don't think we need rules here, just some commonsense given the previous lore about them 
Just my thoughts
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2008 : 00:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Foghorn
I busted out my old Monsters of Faerun to take a look at what he's saying. Which, by the way, is there's a more current version of these beasties?
The Player's Guide to Faerun: Monster Update web enhancement updates several creatures from various 3.0e Realms supplements to 3.5e. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 17 May 2008 00:06:20 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2008 : 01:18:50
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I'd take a look at Ed's compiled Candlekeep replies, for more on the malaugrym. He's provided me with one or two neat ideas previously, when I've considered featuring the malaugrym in my campaigns.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Pasta Fzoul
Seeker
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2008 : 04:18:21
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Foghorn
Maulagrym is that they are natural shapeshifters that are able to change forms like some people change socks.
Not only that, but they change parts of their body in order to gain advantage in combat.
Seems to me you already have the idea - just let them shapeshift into anything they want to and shapeshift any part of them to what they want to - don't think we need rules here, just some commonsense given the previous lore about them
Or, for that matter, simply use the rules provided for the ability most closely associated with whichever body part from another creature they are mimicking. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2008 : 20:31:57
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I figured I'd chime in since I'm the "friendly neighborhood DM" in question. Foghorn and I was talking about shapechangers, and he's been throwing together rules for various and sundry things for quite a while now. His system of choice is Spycraft, and he's been devoting a lot to converting standard d20 stuff to that system. He's also really, really good at it.
I've not so much had a problem coming up with a way to get my Maulagrym to work in my last campaign, but I did wish that I could see some rules for them that actually felt like the proper d20 representation of them.
What I did in my last campaign, which "worked," but never quite felt satisfying, was to allow the shapechange skill to actually do more than allow lycanthropes to avoid unwilling transformation. I set DCs for a Maulagrym to do various things with their ability, and if they rolled high enough with the skill, they could do it.
For example, something simple, like a Maulagrym using an appendage to attack, was easy. There is a base damage for size, modified by str, etc, and every round the Maulagrym could choose if they wanted to use a blunt, slashing, or piercing attack based on what kind of arm they were using.
That changing attack form was a DC 5 check, the way I figured it.
Manifesting a secondary attack was DC 10, and manifesting a second primary attack was DC 15. For each DC of 10 over 15, they could manifest another secondary attack, or if they got 15 over, they could manifest another primary attack.
They could trade in a primary attack to allow them to manifest a limb to let them cast spells while still attacking.
They could trade in a secondary attack to have an extra form of movement (for example, wings to fly, fins to swim).
And they could trade in a secondary attack for the ability to make an attack a reach attack.
All of this worked to keep the whole encounter from being based on DM fiat, but it jsut didn't quite feel right to have these rules that only really applied to Maulagrym, so I was hoping to have a better, more "official d20" feeling way of using this ability, perhaps turning the Maulagrym monster into a template that gains more abilities as the base creature gains levels, but I threw all of that to Foghorn to see him work his genius.
So that's where all of this came from . . . |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 18 May 2008 21:38:11 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 09:19:54
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It seems to me that your DC-check system requires a lot of dice-roling on the DM's part. This could be bothersome and might slow down the game. Moreover, iot might take away a big üpart of the mystery and awe that might be created when using the Malaugryms.
I actually would leave it up to the situation and the DMs imagination and willingness what the malaugrym can do at any given time. After all, as I understand the Malaugrym they are a shapeshifting race so strange to Toril and so chaotic in nature that to press them into 'rules' would be contradictory to their very nature...
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 15:35:02
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| Well, to reduce die rolling you could allow the Malaugrym to take 10 automatically as a racial trait on the shape change skill and there could be a prestige class that allowed a take 20 as a class ability. Or something along those lines anyhow. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 16:00:58
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Wowzers! I am gonna play test these rules in my next session!
My group is about to storm a temple of Lathander infiltrated by Malaugryms loosely connected to Gargauth. Gonna love the look on my players faces as they face a scything reach attack from a 11 year old clergy boy.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2008 : 02:54:19
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I figured I'd chime in since I'm the "friendly neighborhood DM" in question. Foghorn and I was talking about shapechangers, and he's been throwing together rules for various and sundry things for quite a while now. His system of choice is Spycraft, and he's been devoting a lot to converting standard d20 stuff to that system. He's also really, really good at it.
What I did in my last campaign, which "worked," but never quite felt satisfying, was to allow the shapechange skill to actually do more than allow lycanthropes to avoid unwilling transformation. I set DCs for a Maulagrym to do various things with their ability, and if they rolled high enough with the skill, they could do it.
...
All of this worked to keep the whole encounter from being based on DM fiat, but it jsut didn't quite feel right to have these rules that only really applied to Maulagrym, so I was hoping to have a better, more "official d20" feeling way of using this ability, perhaps turning the Maulagrym monster into a template that gains more abilities as the base creature gains levels, but I threw all of that to Foghorn to see him work his genius.
So that's where all of this came from . . .
Great... No wonder Grim's had such an awful time with the Maulagrym. Anyhoos, I agree about the appendage to weapon, but the biggest thing to ME as a player would be the Critical Threat range. The weapon damage is slightly easier, but still something to think about.
So, do the Maulagrym's appendages change Critical threat range/multiplier? Or do they just stay at 20/x2?
Isn't there a formula for deciding weapons' abilities (damage & crit)? If you could use that for a Maulagrym's appendages, that could certainly help you out.
(and if Foghorn weren't away, I'm sure he'd love to see the compliment KEJR)
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Foghorn
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2008 : 06:10:25
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I was hoping to get back on here and better explain the situation and my hopeful direction with all this Maulagrym talk, but having to travel half way across the country to figure out my situation with school and what not (I'm totally in and leave June 14th or 15th, in case KEJR and Darkmeer were wondering), but I'd like to think this is a good starting point that I'm at now.
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Seems to me you already have the idea - just let them shapeshift into anything they want to and shapeshift any part of them to what they want to - don't think we need rules here, just some commonsense given the previous lore about them
The rules presented (and then updated, thanks Hawkins) do allow for some potent shapeshifting. Combine that with a little creative prose through the encounter, and you've got yourself a nice little beastie. However, I feel KnightErrantJR's pain where the Change Shape ability found in the MM Glossary doesn't quite capture what I would describe as a "natural" shapeshifter. One of the things that I would love to incorporate is having the Maulagrym's accidentally slipping between forms if they aren't paying close enough attention.
My thoughts on how I'd like to go around representing the Maulagrym as presented to me:
- Natural shapeshifters: I want switching forms to feel like what we saw from the T-1000 in Judgment Day. I would prefer to keep skill checks and dice rolls out of this, however, I would like a limiting factor. Off the cuff, I am thinking of starting by limiting the number of times of being able to change form in a day based off of Hit Dice/Character Level (probably 1/2, rounded down). Breaking past this threshold requires Fort saves with the idea that this represents pushing your body past its limits.
- Partial transformations: This is something that I'm not really sure how it's going to go over, but it's something that sounded a little fun in my head. Allowing a partial transformation that allows you to take an 'extra' action. Inspiration for this comes from what KEJR has told me about growing a mouth on the side of their head to cast a spell, or an arm out of their back to slap you upside the melon, etc. So, what if they have an ability that allows them to take 2 standard actions instead of 1 standard, 1 move action. This will allow them some wicked tactics, especially in up close and dirty combat, but also clearly defines what is allowed in terms of rules-wise what they can pull off. Mainly, they still get 1 full-round action OR 1 standard + 1 move OR 2 standard actions. I don't think that this is TOO rules breaky, but I'd be interested in people's thoughts.
- Slipped transformations: This is sort a neat little sidenote that doesn't necessarily need special rules, but just a quick idea. While on the Plane of Shadows, the Maulagrym can sometimes slip in between forms if distracted. Maybe using a Concentration or Will check prompted by damage, Intimidate checks, surprise, etc.
Those are my thoughts on the subject right now. I'm not thinking that the idea is something that fits a full template so much as an expansion or different take on the Change Shape ability presented in MM.
Side note: Where do I look for Ed's compiled Candlekeep replies? Those sound tasty...
Sider note: I may have gone away, but I brought the Internet with me and Darkmeer was right. The compliment was much appreciated.
Sidest note: I think my original idea was to gather ideas and post rules ideas in different forum. If this isn't an appropriate place for this, either cut me off and I'll repost the rules ideas elsewhere, or ignore me and hope people stumble on in despite being in not the ideal spot.
Sidester note: The end of this post just got silly. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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Foghorn
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2008 : 05:49:04
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| I've got a first draft of the partial transformation and slipped transformation abilities. Once I tighten up the text and am not six kinds of jet-lagged, I'll see about putting it up. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 21:33:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Wowzers! I am gonna play test these rules in my next session!
My group is about to storm a temple of Lathander infiltrated by Malaugryms loosely connected to Gargauth. Gonna love the look on my players faces as they face a scything reach attack from a 11 year old clergy boy.
Hmmm... care to reveal more about the story? I'm also thinking of using a Malaugrym posing as the new mayor of Hill's Edge, and I'm going to use the clergy of Gargauth or Garagos as "dummies" (i.e. manipulated by the Malaugrym) in the campaign. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Foghorn
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 04:00:05
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Alright, I still feel like I need to tighten up the text (especially on the extraordinary ability bit), but here's the beginning of where I'm going with this. This is a different take on what KEJR did and does require a little bit of bookkeeping on the DM's part, however, it minimizes dice rolling and gives the Maulagrym a lot of interesting tactics that will throw your player's off guard. Which, as a DM or a player, is my favorite part of an encounter.
Partial Transformation (Su): You have such a mastery of your forms that you can change parts of your body to gain an advantage in combat. A number of times per day equal to 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded up), you may perform any of the following action:
- As a move action, you may ignore the blinded, dazzled, deafened, grappled, held, or mute conditions for 1 round as you grow new organs to compensate for the ones not currently working. If the condition is from a magical effect, it allows you to reroll any saving throws made when the spell is cast.
- As a move action, you may take an additional standard action this round.
- As a move action, you gain the improved uncanny dodge ability (see PHB, page 26) for 1 round.
- As a free action, you gain 1 extraordinary ability. If used to gain an ability that is based off Size, you may spend an additional use of this ability to be considered 1 Size larger.[note: hoping to emulate the holding them for 1 round and then using swallow whole next round]
- As a free immediate action, you may take an additional attack of opportunity this round. [note: I don't know if a "free immediate action" is actually kosher using 3.x rules, but it's the cleanest way I've found to represent something you can do at any time and for an ability that stacks on itself]
- As a free immediate action, you gain 10% miss chance for every use of this ability that you spend.
You may attempt to push your body past its limits using this ability. In order to do so, you must make a Fort save (DC 15 + 2 per attempt more than 1/2 HD). Failure leaves you stunned for 1 round as your attempted transformation does not manifest.
Slipped Transformation (Su): While on the Plane of Shadow, your body is so mercurial that you have a tendency to slip between forms, giving away your true nature. Any time someone successfully uses a Charisma-based skill check, you fail a skill check, or if you take damage and fail a Concentration (DC 10 + damage dealt), you slip from your current form into something else. Anyone with the appropriate Knowledge skill will instantly recognize your true nature.
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Maulagryms
