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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
 Posted - 14 May 2008 : 14:52:00
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This article mentions disenchanting stuff you can't sell...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080514a
quote:
The residuum they collect from disenchanting items provides the expensive ritual components they need for the enchanting ritual. If you want characters to rely entirely on these rituals, remove the cost to perform the Disenchant Magic Item ritual, making it just as efficient as selling.
Gods, can they make it any more like WoW? |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 16:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This article mentions disenchanting stuff you can't sell...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080514a
quote:
The residuum they collect from disenchanting items provides the expensive ritual components they need for the enchanting ritual. If you want characters to rely entirely on these rituals, remove the cost to perform the Disenchant Magic Item ritual, making it just as efficient as selling.
Gods, can they make it any more like WoW?
Personally, I really like the idea of disenchanting existing items in order to make new items. I haven't looked at the artificer to see if that's a system I want to use but I haven't needed to yet.
However, this assumption doesn't hold true in the least for my PCs
quote:
from articleThe characters don’t find magic items that are beneath their notice—they won’t walk out of the drow enclave with a wheelbarrow full of +1 rapiers.
My PCs will ABSOLUTELY take EVERYTHING of use out of a place. They'll then use those items to trade, give for favors, or any number of other things.
Anyhow, the 3E model gives me enough headaches trying to view a world based in such a system, 4E looks like it'd give me an aneurysm. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 17:27:22
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PCs stripping a place bare doesn't bother me, so long as they can handle everything (i'd eventually point out encumbrance issues if they tried taking 20' tall granite statues, for example).
It's the thing of disenchanting a magical item for the materials. That is totally a thing lifted from WoW -- and I suspect other MMOs as well. And to me, it chucks out the window the whole mysterious components and specific rituals aspect of magical item creation. The flavor of magic is being tossed aside in favor of a cookie cutter, mass production approach.
One of the things I really liked in 2E, that was tossed aside in 3E, was the whole concept of needing special materials and such that were specific to each magical item. In the old Monstrous Compendiums, there was a section in the monster descriptions that noted magical uses (if any) for body parts from the slain critter. It added a depth and flavor to magic, and made item creation something more that just "take a stick, cast some spells into it, and you're done". Not only that, but the use of specialized components made things more difficult for the PCs, and gave DMs plenty of room for adventure hooks. "Oh, you want to make a sword that also shoots out lightning bolts? Well, your research indicates you'll need the gizzard from a behir, blood from a blue dragon, and the essence from a greater air elemental..."
Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (formerly a suppressed work  , now freely available from the Wizards downloads page) had some really good material for how to make magical items. And it's that kind of stuff I want in my game -- roleplaying and adventure hooks, not "hmm, with these mats I can make a wand of fire* or a wand of lightning*, or I can wait until I've got three Holycoweum stones and make a +20 Sword of Pwnage."
*Note: the 2E versions of these wands were a lot cooler than the 3E versions. I hated the way they changed magical items in 3E. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 17:54:15
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quote:
by Wooly!!!!!!One of the things I really liked in 2E, that was tossed aside in 3E, was the whole concept of needing special materials and such that were specific to each magical item. In the old Monstrous Compendiums, there was a section in the monster descriptions that noted magical uses (if any) for body parts from the slain critter. It added a depth and flavor to magic, and made item creation something more that just "take a stick, cast some spells into it, and you're done". Not only that, but the use of specialized components made things more difficult for the PCs, and gave DMs plenty of room for adventure hooks. "Oh, you want to make a sword that also shoots out lightning bolts? Well, your research indicates you'll need the gizzard from a behir, blood from a blue dragon, and the essence from a greater air elemental..."
I TOTALLY use this system. I have a player who harvests just about every corpse they create and creates a catalog of what he has (which we keep track of, they've got the whole wagon jam going right now and have taken the time to move things) and I decide what sort of "properties" the particular item has. (One of the items harvested was a cloaker stinger which I decided would work as a quill for inscribing . . . I think illusion type magic into items)
I do allow minor scroll and potion creation from "generic" materials but nothing above 1st level.
In other words, I agree completely and really want to use the "disenchant" mechanism to provide materials that are needed and help with the XP cost of creation. Haven't really had to develop the particulars yet and I'm only going to run artificers as NPCs so it's still very vague but I think it can be a useful system.
I'm always disappointed when flavor gets removed, which was part of my dislike for 3E to begin with and a major factor in my dislike of 4E. |
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Stonwulfe
Seeker
Canada
81 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 22:18:05
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This is also in heavy use in my own home games. I encourage players to find innovative uses for everyday objects, and even more uses for the exceptional that they encounter every day in the course of adventuring. The soft inner skin of a purple worm is great for bookbinding and glove making, as it functions as a great barrier to liquid and soils. The dark skins of displacer beasts are inherently good material for clothes requiring stealth, and is a prerequisite for armor of silent movement. Sometimes, more than one material may be used to the same effect; a knockback weapon may have be hafted with dire boar tusk, or the haft may be wrapped in the skin of a gray render, or both.
These rules apply to any time an exceptional item is to be created. In my home games, even masterwork items need often possess unique qualities. Meteoric iron used to make the steel in a masterwork sword, etc. Many of my players craft weapons from arandur, mithral, and bronzewood. Indeed, they take great pleasure in going to extreme lengths to procure unique materials, and are constantly asking me if something may have another use.
It adds something to the flavor of the game. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2008 : 21:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This article mentions disenchanting stuff you can't sell...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080514a
quote:
The residuum they collect from disenchanting items provides the expensive ritual components they need for the enchanting ritual. If you want characters to rely entirely on these rituals, remove the cost to perform the Disenchant Magic Item ritual, making it just as efficient as selling.
Gods, can they make it any more like WoW?
I just threw up a little in my mouth |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2008 : 23:27:32
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| I'm orally continent, but this does looks like taking the idea of commoditizing and disenchanting magic -- the opposite direction, of course, from "Pages from the Mages" and "Bizarre of the Bizarre" -- to a ridiculously literal extreme. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2008 : 16:25:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I'm orally continent, but this does looks like taking the idea of commoditizing and disenchanting magic -- the opposite direction, of course, from "Pages from the Mages" and "Bizarre of the Bizarre" -- to a ridiculously literal extreme.
You almost always manage to sum up my thoughts in a succinct way.
I like the idea of disenchanting but I HATE the idea of "magical marketplace".
"Got your flaming burst two hander here! Best in Suzial! Flaming burst two handers for sale! Get them while they're HOT!!!"  |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 21:25:47
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| For the record, it doesn't seem like disenchantment is even very economical--from what I've read, disenchanting an item nets you only 1/5 of that item's magical energy. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 22:00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
For the record, it doesn't seem like disenchantment is even very economical--from what I've read, disenchanting an item nets you only 1/5 of that item's magical energy.
Even so, getting the energy back seems to me to be like in MMOs, where all magical items are simple variations on X number of this item, Y number of this one, and a greater Z crystal. And I hate the mystery being taken out of magic like that.  |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 22:41:14
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| That pretty much nails it, Wooly. Right on the head of the player who thinks that rendering mystique obsolete is not exactly what they´re looking for in a fricking fantasy RPG. With a Hackmaster +12. Urgh... |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2008 : 00:25:18
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| To be fair, when I first read about harvesting magic energy to use for magic items in Green Ronin's Advanced Gamemaster's Guide, I really liked the idea, but the system in there involved harvesting magic energy in order to pay down XP costs, and also involved a feat to show that you were skilled in capturing energy from a drained magic item. I guess its all in the presentation. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 26 May 2008 00:26:54 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2008 : 01:05:27
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Hmm, I have no proplem with draining and redirecting magic at perhaps a less then full conversion.
I do have a problem of EX points being involved in creation of magic items. Yes I know 3.X did it, but that does not make sense then either. Even level drain appeared to offer problems.
Experience is based what your learn, having to have to give up what you learned to make a potion of healing or right a spell book. Level Drain prehaps can be some what justified as shouck caused a loss of memerories, thus some experience is lost. It was a bit buggy then, adding you forget things to make magic just adds bugs rather then fixing them. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2008 : 01:45:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
For the record, it doesn't seem like disenchantment is even very economical--from what I've read, disenchanting an item nets you only 1/5 of that item's magical energy.
JUST like WoW... 
The 'materials' you harvest by disenchanting items are usually only useful to 'do enchants' of a MUCH lower level.
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
I just threw up a little in my mouth.
You know...
You now have to come to my house and clean the snot off of my monitor. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2008 : 06:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Chyron: Bingo!
You nail all main reasons of my 4E disdain right on their respective head!
I'm sick of money for nothin'... WotC's way I mean!
How d'ya think I feel? I shell out good money for Anauroch and then read a single, tiny squib inside the book (where online buyers such as I can't see it, and where most bookstore patrons wouldn't see it) that this THIRTY DOLLAR book I just bought doesn't have the complete adventure!!!! To get the rest I have to join their Deluxe Dungeon Incompetence online where -- guess what? -- there ain't nuthin'! No index, miserable organization, and INCOMPLETE for thirty bucks! If I had half a mind, I would file a consumer fraud complaint against those sons of silly women.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2008 : 20:38:38
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I will confess: until this week I had not read any of the excerpts from the "4th Edition Player's Handbook" {sic}. I looked over some of them today, and I have to say that I am extremely impressed with the creativity and originality I saw. For example, the division of weapons into "Weapon Categories" was nothing short of brilliant! When Aaron Allston wrote The Complete Fighter's Handbook for AD&D sixteen years ago, he included hammers and maces in the category of "Clubbing Weapons" instead of giving both of them a category of their own. How lame was that?! He didn't divide blades into "Heavy" and "Light," either, he divided them into "Short," "Medium," and "Long." What was up with that? Did he think that a rapier was used differently than a knife, or some such thing?! lol It's no wonder that The Complete Fighter's Handbook sells for only five or ten dollars on eBay instead of $35 -- eBay shoppers know a rip-off when they see it! lol He also had a category for Whips, as if anyone would ever play a character who uses a whip or a scourge as a weapon! ROTFLMAO
The "Wizards RPG Team" should be commended for their creativity. It takes a lot of hard work to properly categorize weapons in D&D and then list them in a book which sells for less than $40! It's even less than $40 Canadian!
And "Alignment" -- it's freakin' brilliant to eliminate True Neutral. What was up with "True Neutral," anyway? What kind of hippie alignment was that supposed to be? Who in the Nine Hells would play it?! Some kind of diseased albino, maybe?! lol
"Rituals" is where the "Wizards RPG Team" really shines. I mean, I've got two copies of Fantasy Wargaming and twenty-six years ago Bruce Galloway (you know, the guy who assigned a "Combat Level" of 10 to the BVM) divided his lame ritual magic system into twelve categories, instead of the nine categories the "Wizards RPG Team" uses. Like, what did Galloway think: that the signs of the Zodiac would have some kind of relevance on Faerun?! lol Twelve categories instead of nine! And tied to the Zodiac! ROTFLMAO
And the "Wizards RPG Team" was really smokin' with You and Your Magic Items. After two years with almost no magic items, I gave a buncha things to my players, and -- would you believe it? -- the Wizard took the Rod of Flame Extinguishing (a lousy 14th-level item) instead of the Staff of Healing, a 16th-level item, then, when he had another choice, he took the ridiculously puny Ring of Lightning instead of the 25th-level Mirror of Life Trapping! How can someone win at D&D if they pass up the best, most powerful, and highest-level magic items?
I do, however, have one question about a D&D Q&A which confuses me somewhat and has been nagging at me. It's located at the bottom of the 4E SRD and OGL page:
quote:
Q. What about the d20 license? Will that still exist in 4th Edition?
A: We are making the OGL stronger by better defining it. We’re rolling certain elements that used to be in the d20 license into the OGL, things like community standards and other tangible elements of the d20 license.
When did "things like community standards" get added to the d20 license? I've looked, and looked, but just can't find any reference to them. And whose community sets the standard? The DM's community's standards, or the standards of the community from which a player comes: The local Catholic high school? The Israeli Defense Forces? Santa Monica (where, by law, marijuana-related offenses are automatically assigned the lowest priority for the police)? West Hollywood? And if the latter, which part of West Hollywood? The Fairfax Jewish district? The Crescent Heights Russian district? The Santa Monica Boulevard Gay & Lesbian District? The Sunset Strip do-all-the-drugs-you-can-afford-and-die-in-the-parking-lot-of-the-Viper-Room district? Which community's standards should my players and I apply when bursting into the hovels of sentient beings, killing each and every one one of them, from suckling babe to toothless granny and stealing their 1D4 gold as "treasure" just because of their skin color, pointy ears, and cultural propensity for cannibalism?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2008 : 21:17:38
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Well I have been reading the releases of excerpts and have not seen anything I liked so far, I will confess to not reading "Rituals" because I do not need to learn how to worship.
I will be looking at it now, however because you appear to like everything else that I do not like odds are low I will like that offer either. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2008 : 08:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I will be looking at it now, however because you appear to like everything else that I do not like odds are low I will like that offer either.
I think Jamallo was being ironic when he said he liked all those things he mentioned. Like a lot of us, he sees nothing new or "cool" in 4th Edition. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Edited by - Kyrene on 06 Jun 2008 08:08:03 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2008 : 09:32:39
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Jamallo should have made his meaning more obvious:
[dripping sacasm]post[/dripping sarcasm] |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 20:35:41
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Oh my god, I couldn't believe how freaking simplistic this version is. Why am I going to play a wizard if all I am is some blast freak? Even with the pathetic rituals, I'm still pretty much a handicapped sorceror. The whole point of playing D&D was that I could do things in this game that I can't do in some MMORPG. If all I'm here to do is blast down the enemies hit points until they're dead (and there's no real defense spells where you could spell duel against rival wizards/clerics/druids, etc....). Where's the contingencies? Where's the animate dead? Where's the polymorph self? Where's the freaking versatility?
Honestly, I'm going to buy the FR campaign setting because I'm just intrigued to see how ****ed up it will be. How do they plan on putting out novels even remotely as interesting when the characters can't do much?
Oh well, I now have a reason to go subscribe to the Pathfinder modules from Paizo, as they look like they know what they're doing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 02:16:30
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| I just want to point out that 4E wizards were deliberately designed not to be way stronger (or way weaker) than the other classes at any point during their development. A lot of people don't like this, I know--I'm just saying that it was done on purpose. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 03:41:00
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I'm not liking what I hear about the new system of magic that is being introduced for $E.
Spell duels, contingencies etc are some of the most important things in a mages repetoire. Take them out and they become two dimensional fireball flingers and that's ok if you are into powergaming but not if you like the subtle intricacies that the weave represents.
Yet another thing that puts me off $E as a gaming system.  |
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 11:15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn
Spell duels, contingencies etc are some of the most important things in a mages repetoire. Take them out and they become two dimensional fireball flingers and that's ok if you are into powergaming but not if you like the subtle intricacies that the weave represents.
So there is no problem here since the weave is gone, too. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Stonwulfe
Seeker
Canada
81 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 21:38:35
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Look at it this way, folks:
All the more room for your players to be inventive recreating or inventing spells. You control the game, not WOTC, and if you like the general premise of 4e and some of the clean-ups in "at the table time-occupiers", then ditch what you don't like. It's that simple.
Or don't buy it.
Vote with your dollars. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 15:41:41
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I just got an email from some game company that doesn't like the GSL... (link removed from the actual email):
quote:
With all the recent changes due to the release of 4e, the GSL and the OGL, we here at Louis Porter Jr. Design have decided to create an all new 4th Edition System Compatible logo which can be used by any and all 3rd party RPG publisher, completely and absolutely free of charge, with any of their products that they wish to support the 4th Edition of the world most popular RPG, but not the GSL in a similar fashion to Kenzer & Company and Adamant Entertainment recent 4th Edition release.
The reason for this new 4th Edition System Compatible logo is the basic failure of the GSL and it use, unify and support of the 3rd party RPG Publishers who wish do to 4th Edition System Compatible material but do not support the GSL. This logo; as in similar fashion with the OGL 3.5 System Compatible logo; easily brands and makes 4th Edition System Compatible material easy to identify with this logo so people can tell on sight what gaming system they are supporting. The initial concept of the OGL was to make the gaming industry stronger by making it possible for more people to create and make products to support the concepts of the OGL.
With the release of 4e and the GSL, many 3rd party RPG publishers have decided to forgo the GSL completely make 4th Edition System Compatible material without use of the GSL. And with the limiting nature of the GSL in its current form, it has caused the creation of this new 4th Edition System Compatible logo.
This logo has bee created in several graphic formats including Adobe Acrobat, Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Illustrator EPS, Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Photoshop JPEG and TIFF. Each of these formats comes with three different versions: color, Grayscale and Black and White. A complete zip file containing all these logos can be downloaded directly from this link:
We hope that any and all 3rd party publishers who create 4th Edition System Compatible material to use the 4th Edition System Compatible logo use and support this initiative. The survival and advancement of the RPG hobby as a whole is the goal that many of us strive for. As I stated before, this isn’t the first time David has gone after Goliath and attempted something amazing. Thank you for this support!
It'll be interesting to see the results of this salvo that they're firing at WotC. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 18:46:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It'll be interesting to see the results of this salvo that they're firing at WotC.
my emphasis
Wooly Rupert, Master of Understatement 
I'm looking forward watching with interest |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 20:53:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It'll be interesting to see the results of this salvo that they're firing at WotC.
Putting this together with the Paizo link I provided yesterday (somewhere) that had the 'mission statement' of Hasbro's, it seems pretty clear that Hasbro intends to spend a LOT of time in court over the next few years, and we will find out once and for all if they really own the D&D IP anymore.
Once their system went 'open source', it opened up a HUGE legal can of worms for them. You can't take something back, once you give it away - thats the law.
Anyhow, I like the idea that the 'plucky' little companies are all 'putting up their dukes' and getting ready for a good, old fashioned donnybrook. I'm also glad that Paizo has put forth its own banner for others to rally behind - they have their own 3e/PF logo planned - because its going to take a helluva lot of little monkeys to beat the 800 lb. gorilla into the ground.
As Wooly has put it... it should be VERY intersting... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jul 2008 20:54:22 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 02:00:35
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Muhahahhahahahahahaha!
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! |
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 03:48:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Muhahahhahahahahahaha!
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
*more insane malcious gleefull laughter!*  
Some one find me a longhair white cat to stroke! |
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett
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Recent Developments in 4e
