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Yasraena
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jun 2003 : 08:35:44
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There have been many references to this style of gaming on this board since I've joined. I'd like to hear some thought from all you experienced gamers out there on this subject.
What is your definition of this style of gaming?
Is it a legitimate style of play?
If so, why.
If not, why.
I personally don't think it's a bad style. I happen to like playing in high powered games and all that comes with them. But to quote a familiar phrase, "With great power comes great responsibility" and it also comes with comensurate opposition. More on this from me after I've read a few responses.
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"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2003 : 09:04:52
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I don't see much wrong with it. Of course, there are always limits. And I'm not really experienced at all in this (gee, have I mentioned that?  ) so I can't really say for sure. However, I really don't see anything wrong with trying to tailor your character to certain things. Just as in real life, you want to be ready for everything.
I'm sure that someone's going to come along and say how it's bad and completely destroys the game and blah blah blah. I don't think it does -- so long as the game doesn't devolve into a stream of numbers and stats. Then it's just math, not a game.
I'm a powergamer, I expect. I've been waiting for Mumadar (I wish he'd at least tell us why he can't continue the game right now) to get back to me on some things, like exactly how many spells my half-elven wizard has. See, he just left the Collegium Arcana (okay, that's my name for it -- so sue me) at Silverymoon as a 3rd level wizard. For every quarter you're a student there, you get one free spell. I don't know how many spells he's supposed to have if he's gotten three level increases there. I wanted to leave it up to him, so that I wouldn't make it too much.
My point is that I want this guy prepared. He's supposed to be really good at magic and learning. However, I don't want to overbalance him.
Bottom line, powergaming is okay. It's just like real life, unless you're a barefoot monk. Munchkinism, though, is more like someone being greedy. More more more. Best best best. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2003 : 10:42:37
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I like 'power-gaming' to an extent. But in all my gaming experience I have found that the potential for abuse of 'power-gaming' is directly linked to the type of people you game with. I have played in campaigns were all a player lives for is the opportunity to 'power-game', and I have found that this can be a little intimidating and also annoying for other gamers who might not feel the same way. So as DM, I regularly approach this style of play with a very 'controlled' reach. It has advantages, but it needs a strict form of balance to actually work properly.
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2003 : 15:59:17
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Definition: exploiting the mechanics system to their utmost to optimize a character's abilities and skills, during creation, development and advancement.
It's legitimate as long as it doesn't interfere with role-playing. In
my opinion, powergaming doesn't necessarily equate to bad role-playing.
Your last statement is right on the money. Powergaming also does not equal Monty Haul. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 19 Jun 2003 15:59:44 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2003 : 08:55:46
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| Bran, I have to appologize. I was sure you were going to say the opposite; in fact, you were the "someone" I'd referred to. I'm sorry for misjudging you; I've just been a bit angry lately, with no real outlet. I'm sorry it spilled over onto here. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Yasraena
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2003 : 21:13:24
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After reading some of the other comments about this style of gaming on other threads, I'm surprised (albeit pleasantly) to read the positive comments here.
My definition: High power equals high level. IMO, you can't have this type of game at anything below 10th level, so it's something that the game has to evolve into instead of starting out at. Exploiting the rules to make characters as powerful as possible is really the negative connotation the style has. Basically power with no substance, or better yet, power for the sake of power. And if that's the only way it's played, then it does devolve into nothing more than stats and rolling dice, and I would totally agree with anyone who says that that is munchkinism.
But, in line with Bran, it can be a good thing as long as the roleplaying/story aspect is there as a major part of the style. And I mean actual things the character has done to reach this level of power, not made up stuff like a background you write for a newly created PC.
There also needs to be game balance as well, and by that I mean comensurate opposition and risks to the character. I would expect a character with the amount of power we are talking about here to be involved in epic type adventures, where the fate of a city, or even a world would hang in the balance, etc. Not to mention the characters life in constant danger of ending in a most horrible way.
The one thing that I wish to make clear on my positive spin on this is that these type of characters have to GROW into this power. They can't be created with it already there. There must be legitimate reasons why they have the power they do. This goes back to the roleplaying/story aspect of it.
I think a perfect example of this is my character Yasraena, a 15/14 Drow F/M. She is definitely a 'powergaming' type character. All you have to do is look at her character sheet to realize that. But ohhhh, the stuff she's gone through to get where she's presently at. She has a history that starts more than ten years ago (real time) when she was only 3/3 in level, and ranges in things she's done from rescuing royalty from slavers, to going to Hell and back (literally), to fighting and killing a Dracolich (and almost dieing in the act). She didn't get where she's at now by just rolling dice (although there was a fair amount of that  )
My point is that she has a history of actual deeds that back up her power and abilities.
Whew! Ok,I'm done now. Sorry for the long post, but I really enjoy this style of gaming, so I wanted my reasons clear.
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"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2003 : 05:45:35
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Yasraena:
I think we are talking about two different aspects of powergaming. The first is the minmaxing type. The player is doing the powergaming. The second is when the character is powerful. They don't have to coincide with each other, and, to paraphrase myself, neither leads inevitibly to bad RPing.
I think it's possible we (the gaming community as a whole) tend to say that powergaming (both types) causes bad RPing because that is the style of many munchkins. I would say rather (and I may be arguing against a point no one has even considered bringing up, let alone put forth) that that style attracts munchkins.
So, Yasraena the character definitely falls into the "powerful character" definition of powergaming, but does Yasraena the Candlekeep Forum member fall into the "minmaxing" category. My hunch is no. I do not really enjoy playing super-powerful characters, but I will certainly plead guilty to saying things along the lines of "If I give myself rank 5 in Bluff, I'll get that +2 synergy bonus on all those other skills." |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2003 : 22:23:44
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My son (now 17) started D&D with a few of his friends about 10 years ago. Any serious player probably wouldn't have recognised it as D&D - it was all about maxing stats, killing things and collecting treasure.
He regularly used to watch us "grown-ups" play () and one day he realised just how much more there was to the game. Since then he's become one of the best roleplayers I know and (fortunately) taken most of his friends from 10 years ago with him.
Personally as long as everybody gets enjoyment from a session, I can't see a problem with any style of play.
I don't normally go in for "power gaming" but ...
This weekend I'm running a game for 7 characters of levels 14+. Some of them are characters brought out of retirement and others have been created specifically for the game (my brother has never played above 3rd level and really wanted a high level game). The game is going to start with a trip to Sigil (via the Infinite Staircase) and then into the Abyss to rescue an Oread. We are starting Saturday lunchtime and will play until we drop sometime on Sunday. I don't suppose there's going to be a lot of time for role-play but so long as everyone enjoys the session does it really matter? |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 04:49:43
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Powergaming is such a subjective term. It seems to range from someone who, like Bran asks if they get that synergy bonus, to those who intentionally combine seven different classes (core and prestige) in order to produce a tenth level character with the spellcasting and combat power of a twentieth level fighter and a twentieth level wizard.
Personally, I always make sure that when I invest skill points, feats, and ability bonuses they work well with my current classes, feats, ect., but I wouldn't consider myself a powergamer. In the end it depends on what kind of game you are running. Some games will better accomodate 'powergamers' than others. Thus, the question of legitimacy is largely subjective. In a high roleplay game it might not be considered one, but in a Diablo II style hack'n'slash-athon it might be the normal method of playing.
I would say that when you boil it down, 'powergaming' was a term created by heavy roleplayers whose style frowned upon meticulous attention to maximizing you're character's power. As far as I am concerend, I don't mind it, so long as the player is not being obsessive about it, then it just get's annoying for me. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 10:50:20
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kahonen said -
quote:
The game is going to start with a trip to Sigil (via the Infinite Staircase) and then into the Abyss to rescue an Oread.
Will you be utilising the adventure anthology for this, or just the basic Infinite Staircase as a means of planar travel?. I only ask because if you aren't you should really consider running at least one adventure from the anthology for that beginning part. It is a great adventure series.
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 20:19:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth:
Will you be utilising the adventure anthology for this, or just the basic Infinite Staircase as a means of planar travel?. I only ask because if you aren't you should really consider running at least one adventure from the anthology for that beginning part. It is a great adventure series.
I'm just using it as a means of Planar travel. 3 of the players for the weekend have completed the full Infinite Staircase series (which is how they know about it).
I totally agree, it is a very good series of adventures. |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 23:12:29
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Edain:
I don't consider myself a powergamer (by either definition), but, as I said, I have minmaxed now and again.
Anyone who says he's never minmaxed at all is either lying, doesn't remember or has made so few PCs that he can remember the details of creating them all. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2003 : 20:07:16
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I have to admit I almost always min/max in the computer roleplaying games. SImply because computer roleplaying games are so limited Roleplaying wise.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Powergaming... Legitimate style or munchkin city?
