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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 23:56:02
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I would like to get people's input on the problems associated with DMing groups of players who are of varying ages and levels of maturity.
As I mentioned in the my introductory post (Returning to D&D after a 20 year absence) in "Well met", I am running a campaign with that includes the whole family and a neighbor kid. The group includes a 40 yr old, a 20 yr old, 2 eleven yr olds and a 10 yr old. The oldest, my partner, is an experienced RPGer (Traveler) but rest are newbies. They all seem to enjoy it, but, in general terms, it's a bit like herding cats.
There are two main issues I've come up against so far.
First, the younger players tend to react impulsively and in most cases selfishly to situations. They think about their own safety or momentary interests, but not about the safety or interests of the group. For example, after the group had conquered a goblin clan in their cave, my daughter (the youngest) transformed her PC into a sprite, using her recently acquired "Alter self" spell, and left her companion alone to go off exploring by herself. I find myself routinely trying to prevent them from getting themselves or the group killed.
Second, the younger players are heavily focussed on getting stuff (treasure, magical weapons, spells etc.) for own their character ("I get the dagger+1!, I called it!"), and not very thoughtful regarding the benefits items might bring to the group. They are less interested in plot lines and more interested in slashing and plundering. They do not pay enough attention to what NPC´s say or do, and as a result miss important clues. The adult players are, of course, more interested in the narrative and approach situations cautiously and thoughtfully.
As a result of these two issues, the adult players (and me, the DM) are often frustrated and annoyed with the impulsiveness and selfishness of the younger players.
Does anyone have any thoughts on these or other issues with respect to diverse groups?
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Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 00:46:26
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I had this whole response typed out...but lost it somehow! LOL
The essence of it was this: get the new guys to read a novel that has an adventuring group in it. Award them experience points for finding out certain information in the novel, and talk to them along the way before gametime about where they are in the novel. Talk to them and drop hints at how much easier things are for the group in the novel because they work together and such.
I would suggest either the Dragonlance Chronicles (large adventuring group with all sorts of different characters) or the Icewind Dale Trilogy. I prefer the first because the group is larger and they seem to go through many more encounters and adventures in those three books than the Icewind Dale Trilogy contains...but both are good.
Just make sure they don't all start acting like Kender and you should be ok.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Rizzen1lc
Acolyte
Canada
6 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 02:47:40
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I have DMed a couple of groups of younger players and can relate to your post. A few years ago I began DMing my little brother and 3 (sometimes 5 or 6) his friends, all of them 11 to 13 years old. After spending hours setting up grand adventure we sat down to play, and the first thing they did was try to kill each other. Once I managed to get them on a somewhat cooperative basis, they were able to make it a sterotypical dungeon crawl, movign from room to room. If they had to talk to each they would always start with "My character tells your character..."
They were definately more interested in ROLL-playing, as opposed to ROLE-playing.
Essentially I had to turn my adventures to them. The first few were simple hack and slashes. I always put in a few spots where they could role-play if they wanted and tried to lead by example. NPC's always spoke to them in character, often with different voices or speech patterns. It's amazing how they latch onto memorable characters like the stuttering guardsman, or the halfling that repeats himself.
Over the course of a few gaming sessions many of them began dabbling in the role-laying aspect, and soon I began enforcing role-playing through a series of XP bonuses for role-playing. I ncouraged them to take on specfic traits (of their own choosing) to role-play. For example, one of them made a bard with a high charisma, but the player wanted the bard to have several facial scars. When I explained that that is difficult to imagine, I asked him to justify it. He thought about it and came back to me said the bard got the scars in a drunken fall through window at a nobles party he was playing at, but he tells all the young women he meets that he got them from fighting a Dragon. He even wrote several "lines" he would use on the NPC women to go along with it. And all of them thought it funny when I playewd a NPC maiden swooning over he disfigured bard.
I guess there isn't really any sure-fire way to make them role-play. But I think you'll find that be leading by example and giving them some sense of control they will slowly come around.
By the way. My usual group of players, who are all intheir 30's and have been playing D&D for going on 20 years, still fight over magical weapons. ("Dude! No way! I get the dagger +2! You have a Dagger +1 and Boots of Elvenkind already! And your a Paladin!" says the rogue. True story from this week's session) |
Insert witty line here. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 15:40:08
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One thing you can do to force role-playing, and less hacking and slashing, is to take what the youngsters say at face value.
e.g. If a player says: "But I rolled 20 on my bluff check" have the NPC reply "Are you well, sir? You didn't roll on anything. And what, pray tell is a bluff check?"
Alternatively, devise riddles and stuff that will not be solved by die-rolling. Talk with the mature players beforehand that you will knock them out and have the younger players figure the riddle/puzzle/whatever out by themselves.
And make sure to show them that killing stuff might just be the way not to go on some occasions...let them fail, if need be. Let one or all of them be responsible for the failure of the adventure... it might just work. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 16:14:05
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I haven't GMed that kind of group, but a few thoughts:
Identify where the behaviour comes from and what it does for them, and talk to the children on that basis. For instance, if it's learned behaviour from computer games, talk to them about how roleplaying is less like that and more like a story.
If they're in that period where they're unsure about their own identities, it's almost impossible to make them comfortable with assuming others.
With adults, talking works far better than in-game measures. In your case you may want to train/manipulate them.
I get the impression of all the players facing you and dealing with you individually. Encourage them to talk in-character among themselves, by staging situations that encourage that and have no opportunity for that kind of selfishness. Leave them to do it. And situations where the characters have to work together or fail, causing setbacks to both the rogue individuals and the group. Let those consequences happen, don't bail them out.
Are there other activities that could get these wayward violent impulses out of their system, in the same way that friends who see each other outside game sessions don't need to talk so much before play?
Who do the children look up to? Work on them first.
Don't tell the players what items are in game terms. They can't glom onto the mechanical properties of things if they don't know them.
Are they not interested in their own characters' plot lines, or not interested in other people's? If the latter, change the plot lines to include them (and any loved ones) more directly. |
Edited by - Faraer on 29 Mar 2008 16:14:46 |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 20:18:56
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Thank you all for your great suggestions. I'm particularly intrigued by Dalor Dardon's suggestion of using the Dragon Lance Chronicles as a teaching tool. Encouring them to read is always a good thing and it would have the added benefit of helping them to visualize the role playing environment, even if it isn't in the Realms.
I've checked out our local public library's catalog and they have a bewilderingly large number of books from that series. Some are in the Adult section and some in Juvenile. I'm wonderiong what would be a good starting point for 10 and 11 yr olds. The library lists the following book under juvenile as "#1":
A rumor of dragons (#1)
Author: Weis, Margaret.
Pub Year: 2003
ISBN: 078693087X
Is this the first in the series and does it give a good example of an adventuring group working together? |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 20:22:54
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I have no clue about the juvenile stuff, as I read the Chronicles about 18 years ago.
However, Chronicles is to be read as follows:
Dragons of Autumn Twilight
Dragons of Winter Night
Dragons of Spring Dawning
all three written by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2008 : 02:26:11
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| Mace has it exactly right...have them read those books and you should too! Amazing books...I read them at least once a year or so...no joke! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2008 : 03:16:02
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Oh I intend to read the books as well; both because I´ll need to read them if I´m going to discuss the contents with the players, and because I´m sure they´ll be a fun read. I've been reading a number of Ed Greenwood's books to get a sense of Cormyr and the Dales and I'm very much enjoying them.
I think Faraer was quite right about the difficulty of getting people with identity issues --be they kids or adults-- to role play, but only if the PC being played is very different from the player's self image. I have solved this issue by getting the most insecure player to play a character that matches his self image; in this case a paladin. Paladins are ordinarily difficult to play, but my son´s strong sense of justice and his empathetic nature make it a good fit for him.
I am also very much in favor of the suggestion of letting the players suffer the consequences of their impulsiveness, although it´s a fine line between teaching and discouraging them. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 30 Mar 2008 03:25:15 |
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Rollo Ruttikin
Acolyte
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 23:47:04
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I have Dungeonmastered campaigns with younger players mixed in with older, experienced gamers and I have played in campaigns with the same mixture.
I believe it all depends on the gaming maturity of the players. Not necessarily age.
I had a close friend that just never got the whole point of what RPGs are supposed to be about.
He was simply a stat freak, he cheated on his die rolls and his first level characters were like demi-gods.
Then I ran a campaign with my buddy and he had his nephew join in.
This kid was only 12 but he was amazing! He thought things through, was cautious without being cowardly and he used sound tactics when he had to fight.
It just depends on their gaming maturity. Alot of that comes from playing and seeing campaigns just die slowly. Hopefully they will come to the realization that gaming is about team work, roleplaying and having fun and not necessarily "winning."
Rollo |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 03:26:20
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| I agree. One of my younger players is excellent. Although he has never played an RPG before, he is thoughtful, curious and proactive. He is still learning the ropes rules-wise but he promises to be a very good player. He's only eleven. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 15:32:08
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I have the same issue in my group. We have myself who is 38, and players who are ages 35x2, 34, 17, and 14. Two of us share DMing responsibilities (myself and one of the 35 y/o).
Myself and the other DM are very role-playing focused and love character development. The 34 y/o likes both aspects, but leans towards power gaming and min-maxing. The two younger players want constant action “More fighting!” “How about some more magic items!?”
While it is a challenge to keep everyone happy, you just need to tailor the adventure to your players and realize you can’t make everyone happy all the time.
One tip I can off is that you can add odd scraps of paper, scrawling on walls, or odd books with clues that will be trash to your treasure hungry “I called the shiny thing, it’s mine mine mine” type player. Your role-playing focused players will see this as a potential hook and grab it up. When you see these players scratching down notes concerning the content of those odd little bits of parchment or books they find in old bags next to the bag by the old skeleton or in the ruined library, your additions have hit the mark. Just remember to follow up on some of the hooks, and leave some as red herrings. Just do your best and keep your players play-styles in mind when you design your next foray into the mists and it should all work out!
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Edited by - AlorinDawn on 03 Apr 2008 15:36:28 |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 18:14:57
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| I'm just starting one... |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 19:00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by AlorinDawn
you can add odd scraps of paper, scrawling on walls, or odd books with clues that will be trash to your treasure hungry “I called the shiny thing, it’s mine mine mine” type player. Your role-playing focused players will see this as a potential hook and grab it up.
That's a great suggestion. I have already been doing that to some extent by placing "items" alongside "clues". This provides interest and a through-line for the players interested in plot, while pleasing the hackers.
Aravine, keep us posted on how it's going.
Cheers,
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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DMing groups of varying ages and maturity
